Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 7 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 20, 2001
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:00 a.m. to examine access, provision and delivery of services, policy and jurisdictional issues, employment and education, access to economic opportunities, youth participation and empowerment, and other related matters.
Senator Thelma J. Chalifoux (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I welcome our witnesses this morning. This committee is to develop an action plan for change - this is not a study. I am hopeful that you will partner with us so that we may examine urban Aboriginal issues.
Mr. Jensen, please proceed.
Mr. Phil Jensen, Assistant Deputy Minister, Employment Programs Branch, Department of Human Resources Development Canada: Honourable senators, thank you for extending this invitation to Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC, to speak to this important issue. The department takes seriously its responsibilities for Aboriginal people who are one of our main groups of clients. It is a pleasure for my colleagues and me to be here to speak to this important and timely issue.
On my left is Mr. Henry Holik, a director in the department's homelessness area, who will speak to the matter of homeless Aboriginal youth. Mr. Rick Magus is here from our Winnipeg office where he manages our ground operations on issues of interest to Winnipeg. Mr. Magus will provide you with on-ground experience.
In front of you, you will find a deck in English and French that is entitled "Senate Standing Committee on Aboriginal Peoples Urban Aboriginal Youth." I would like to go through the deck quickly to give you a perspective on the department's programming.
In the context of urban Aboriginal youth, HRDC functions as part of the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, which is led by the Privy Council Office. Essentially, the strategy is to bring urban programming together and to make connections where we can. Today, we will focus specifically on what HRDC does.
In this area, we are a major player. My presentation will include a diagnostic of urban Aboriginal youth in Canada and a description of HRDC's programming. My colleagues will then provide some of the flavour in their specific areas.
On page three, "Who are Urban Aboriginal Youth?" you will see that there are about 800,000 Aboriginal Canadians, based on the 1996 census. About 50 per cent reside in urban areas.
The Chairman: Before you go any further, Mr. Jensen, does that include the Métis and the Inuit?
Mr. Jensen: Yes, it does. The numbers are a rough estimate, because we have population estimates that range from about 780,000 on an identity basis, to about 1 million in origin basis. The figure of 800,000 is a blended count, using Aboriginal identity, Indian legal status and band membership.
The Chairman: That does not include the Métis, then, because we are not legal and we do not have a band membership.
Mr. Jensen: It does not include the Métis.
The Chairman: Does it include the Inuit, because there is a large Inuit population, as well?
Mr. John Kozij, Director, Aboriginal Strategic Policy, Strategy and Coordination, Strategic Policy, Human Resources Development Canada: It includes the Métis and the Inuit Aboriginal people.
The Chairman: The numbers are mixed up with the Indian Act and the Métis.
Mr. Jensen: This is an estimate, but it does include an estimate for Métis and Inuit as well.
As you will note, almost 4 per cent are of Aboriginal heritage. Certain cities - Saskatoon and Winnipeg for example - have quite high percentages of Aboriginal youth. In cities such as Edmonton and Prince Albert, a large percentage of their youth population are Aboriginal.
Aboriginal youth are more likely than non-aboriginal youth to report unemployment with worse outcomes, especially in the Western areas. In off-reserve locations, the unemployment rate of Aboriginal youth is about 1.7 times higher. The actual numbers range from about 21 per cent in Calgary to about 42 per cent in Thunder Bay. As you can see, that is number is quite high, even in Calgary. The normal unemployment rate in Calgary is around 3 or 4 per cent.
The next area, "Quality of Life," shows you that we have used words such as "compromise" in terms of urban non-aboriginal youth. There is a disproportionate number of single-parent families - almost one-half of urban Aboriginal children live with a lone parent. This figure is three times the number for the rest of the population.
This segment of the population is very mobile and there is much migration. Aboriginal youth are 1.4 times more likely to move and they are 1.5 times more likely to change communities. Obviously, both of these factors have an effect on their quality of life. Studies have shown that children in families that move frequently, face a greater disruptive influence in their upbringing.
The rate of disabilities for all Aboriginal people is roughly two times that of non-aboriginal people. Those same figures also apply to youth.
The rate of Aboriginal poverty, using the Low Income Cut-offs, LICO, is the highest of any urban population in Canada at approximately 55 per cent, compared with 24 per cent for Canadians as a whole.
HRDC's mandate is to enable Canadians to participate fully in the workplace and the community. We help people get fully integrated into society, and we help them get jobs. Those are our two main mandates.
We have programming of general application, and we have programming of specific application. Programming of general application, which applies to Aboriginal youth, includes things like Canada Student Loans, Registered Education Savings Plans and the Youth Employment Strategy. Our targeted programming includes the Aboriginal Human Resources Development Strategy - I will talk about that in a minute because that is a major element of our programs - Homelessness and the National Literacy Programming.
We have four types of programming for youth. We provide wage subsidies to employers to create meaningful work experiences for youth. A component of our programming is directed specifically towards youth at risk where there is more targeted intervention because they need step-wise interventions to get them back into the marketplace. We have a large summer job program, which enables employers to hire students when they are not in school. Lastly, we have a large information and awareness group that has a Web site and many other information products to provide youth with the information they need to make education and career choices. In fact, our Web sites are annually visited by about 400,000 youth in the country. They are quite heavily visited.
Our National Literacy program is another program of general application that has an Aboriginal literacy component to it. In 2001-02, we funded 32 Aboriginal projects in this area for a value of about $1.6 billion.
Page 8 indicates that our funding - about 4 per cent - is small compared to the total funding the government does for Aboriginal people. In strategic investments we are higher, that being not the basic stuff such as health, education, housing and so on. As a particular note for off-reserve Aboriginal groups, HRDC is the largest player in this area.
Page 9 talks about our largest program, which is the Aboriginal Human Resources Development Strategy, or AHRDS. This is a five-year $1.6 billion investment - in other words, over $300 million a year - designed to increase the employment opportunities for Aboriginal people. We do that with a model whereby we have negotiated agreements with 79 major Aboriginal organizations - often collectives of Aboriginal bands and council. This group designs and delivers the AHRDS programming.
The theory behind this was twofold: First, to build capacity in Aboriginal communities so that they can work with their own people and, second, to allow flexibility in program design at the local level such that they could get at problems that were specific to their area and might not be best served by a national approach. To date, it is working quite well, and I will give you some statistics in a few minutes.
Within the Aboriginal Human Resources Development Strategy programming of about $300-odd million, we also have an urban component of $30 million and a youth component of $25 million. Page 10 shows some of the statistics. We have $30 million for urban off-reserve, $30 million for Métis groups, and $4.4 million to Congress of Aboriginal Peoples and NWAC.
This, in a way, underestimates how much we spend in urban areas because the large AHRDA holders on reserve are also obligated to serve their people in urban centres. For example, the Treaty 7 Economic Development Corporation, which represents the Treaty 7 Nations, has operations in Calgary. The First Nations Employment Society does the same thing in Vancouver. The First Nations does the same in Saskatchewan as do the Métis groups in Alberta and Saskatchewan. I have visited MNA offices in Edmonton, and they deliver programming there as well as in the rural areas. As you can see, in aggregate, we generally have about $65 million for urban Aboriginal peoples.
On page 12 we talk about some of the issues around Aboriginal youth. As I mentioned, we have $25 million devoted for programming here. The programming generally focusses on results that lead to work and/or back to school. The initiatives are similar to our broad programming in that they could involve internships, community service opportunities, summer employment opportunities and labour market information.
I would like to make one point about youth. Mr. Magus will talk more about this, I am sure. Our typical client could be a 16-year-old Aboriginal youth coming into our offices one way or another - perhaps through the AHRDA holders - and the individual may only have Grade 7 education. He or she likely has a problem with anger management and has no life or job skills. We cannot march this individual into a job interview. It is not feasible. He or she could not get the job.
You have to take youth in this situation through a series of interventions. You would start probably with some anger management and life skills and then get into the job skills. It is not a case of just giving them a short-term course and a skills upgrading and they can immediately go back into the workforce. There is a much more targeted series of interventions required before you can help these people become productive members of society. This requires working with the community. This requires interventions that are targeted and flexible and requires patience and time. It does take some years to do this.
I should also add that our government's programming in aggregate is a mix of prevention and remediation. What I am describing today is more of the remedial stuff. If you have a very good education system, if you have a good health care system, if you have the basics, you can prevent many of these issues from arising. It is a balance in programming in aggregate. Some of the other departments - particularly DIAND - are into the prevention a bit more than we are.
Page 13 gives you an idea of with what the agreement holders must comply. Essentially, they need to give us two things. The first is a clear indication that the AHRDS agreements are managed well financially. There must be an annual audit, and they have to comply with our financial requirements. Second, they must achieve targeted results for us, and this is getting people back to work - not necessarily right now but through a series of interventions.
You can see the results in our last fiscal year there. Under the AHRDS, we served nearly 36,000 clients. We had almost a 90 per cent completion rate on interventions, which is quite good. We saved the E.I. fund, because we get funding from there, almost $9 million because these people were not on Employment Insurance. We found 12,000 jobs, 6200 in an urban environment, and we put almost 3,000 youth back to work across the country.
I will turn the presentation now over to Mr. Magus who will talk about the Winnipeg situation on slides 14 and 15.
Mr. Rick Magus, Manager, Aboriginal Affairs, Manitoba Region, Department of Human Resources DevelopmentCanada: Honourable senators, I have the honour and privilege of working in Winnipeg, which has its own set of challenges. As honourable senators will be aware, we have one of the highest populations of Aboriginal people in Canada in an urban sense. We have some very active political activity, and we have the highest youth demographic.
We have had some good success within the framework of our policies that Mr. Jensen has mentioned. We have provided some examples of a few of the projects that we have done on the ground that have had that success. We talk about a fairly large project called "Partners for Careers," done between us and the Province of Manitoba, that targets young graduates who experience twice the unemployment rate of non-aboriginal graduates. That program is in its fourth year, and we have placed more than 2,500 young people who are graduates into employment, 1,100 of those in Winnipeg.
This is a partnership. We have had to express flexibility and collaboration with the other order of government and with our Aboriginal partners. Partners for Careers is delivered through Aboriginal delivery organizations. There is a Web site reference to that if you look in the material so you can chase some of this down for further information.
The "Graffiti Art Project" is a good example of a small project that targets youth at very high risk who are already on the wrong side of the law, tagging buildings in spray paint and so on. This has been quite a heart-warming project for us. It has made a difference for these young people who are now in the graphic arts kind of career paths. We are in a second intake on that one. The first one had a high percentage of success as far as youth at risk go. Some of these people are now in mural painting and graphic applications, and some of them have even gone on to fine arts at the University of Manitoba. That has been heartwarming. That is one issue that speaks to youth with multiple barriers.
We have just finished contracting for the "Youth Ambassadors" program, which is in partnership with the Downtown Winnipeg BIZ. We have some uniformed people who walk around and help people downtown, whether they be visitors, tourists or people who are disoriented or in distress. We have made a fairly high penetration of Aboriginal youth into that program. It was a pre-existing program, but we brought an Aboriginal youth component to it. That has been very successful. That is a partnership between our department, Manitoba Education, Training and Youth, the Manitoba Métis Federation, the Centre for Aboriginal Human Resource Development in Winnipeg, the Downtown Winnipeg BIZ, and the Winnipeg Foundation, which is a charitable foundation. That is, again, a partnership where our contribution is about $50,000 of a total of $273,000 of funding. The partnership aspect is key to most of these projects.
Mr. Jensen has talked about the Aboriginal Human Resources Development strategy. In Manitoba, we have an agreement with the Manitoba Métis Federation and the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs - both of whom invest something in the order of $2 million in the urban area, primarily on youth. We also have an urban agreement with the Centre for Aboriginal Human Resource Development, about $3.6 million, and then we do some partnership projects with a small amount of money that comes through my office in the Aboriginal Single Window.
We are fortunate also to have signed a youth protocol agreement with the Province of Manitoba between HRDC and the Government of Manitoba, providing us another forum to discuss matters on a regular basis to talk about the big priority that we have in Manitoba for youth at risk, which is quite often urban Aboriginal youth. That has been very useful for us.
Mechanisms that we have used to formulate and execute these partnerships include the Aboriginal Single Window, which is where I work. Located in the Aboriginal Centre of Winnipeg, this program has existed in partnership with the Privy Council Aboriginal Affairs Office for about four and one-half years. For the last two and one-half years, we have been working with federal council on the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, which is also handled through PCO. We are a significant participant in that.
Our success is rooted in community empowerment and partnerships. We certainly have the full involvement of our Aboriginal partners, as well as other orders of government and private and public sector folks. Building these partnerships has taken time and a great deal of effort and resources. It is an activity unto itself. We have found that multi-year commitments are important, particularly in dealing with provinces. We have had to come up with new structures and approaches to be able to make these things work.
Mr. Jensen: I would ask Mr. Holik to talk briefly about our homelessness programming.
Mr. Henry Holik, Director, Program Management, National Secretariat on Homelessness: Although we do not have national information on homeless Aboriginal youth, we do have information provided by communities. We know that in certain communities, Aboriginal people represent a higher proportion of the homeless population. This is particularly true in communities in the West. For example, in Edmonton, 42 per cent of the homeless population are Aboriginal people. We know that a high percentage of the Aboriginal homeless population are youth, and it is a higher proportion than amongst the general homeless population. In B.C., 33 per cent of the Aboriginal homeless people are under 25 years of age.
Mr. Chairman, you have been working in the field for many years, so you know that there are many causes of homelessness. There include low socio-economic status, substance abuse, physical and mental illness, family and sexual violence, the rural to urban migration, and cultural dislocation, including racism and discrimination.
Honourable senators may recall that Minister Bradshaw travelled the country meeting with the provinces, the municipalities, community organizations and homeless individuals. Following those meetings and that consultation, the Government of Canada launched a National Homelessness Initiative in December of 1999. It is a $753-million three-year demonstration initiative to foster effective partnerships to address homelessness. A cornerstone of this initiative is a $305-million supporting community partnership initiative, known as SCPI, to help communities work together to create sustainable long-term solutions to homelessness. We are partnering with 61 communities who are developing their own local plans, priorities and action plans to address homelessness. The $305 million is new money.
We also have enhancements to existing programs, $59 million toward the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, and another $59 million to existing youth programs. We have additional moneys for CMHC's programs to upgrade or modify low-income residences and to make surplus federal lands available to address homelessness.
Local and regional Aboriginal organizations - and in some cases, individuals - are involved in delivering the initiative. For example, we have Aboriginal organizations and individuals participating in community-wide planning processes such as in Red Deer, Saskatoon and Charlottetown. In other communities, they have taken a parallel process to identifying and planning for Aboriginal needs. For example, in Vancouver, the Aboriginal community is developing its own plan to address Aboriginal homelessness in Vancouver.
To date, we have funded 52 projects, for an investment value of $11 million under the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, UAS. An additional 38 projects - $3.2 million - have been funded through STPI and youth that address Aboriginal homelessness.
Mr. Jensen had mentioned the requirement of taking a staged intervention-by-intervention approach. That is certainly a cornerstone of the approach we are taking. We call it a "continuum of support services." That continuum ranges from basic needs such as shelter, food and clothing to interim needs, such as our services of life skills development and then on to more advanced interventions, such as skill and employment preparedness to get the individual linked to jobs and, of course, into society.
I want to give you examples of some of the funding that we have undertaken. In Toronto, we have funded the Native Child and Family Services to complete renovations of our transitional unit. This will get street youth off the street, which is the beginning of the continuum of services. We then get the youth into what we call "reintegration programs" such as anger management and life skills to start them on the road to getting back into looking at jobs the possibility of having a stable environment lifestyle.
We have just announced the Central Urban Métis Federation funding in Saskatchewan. It is building an extension to a facility to house 15 additional homeless Aboriginal single mothers.
We have just approved funding for Ndinawenaaganag Endaawaad Incorporated to provide safer shelter for homeless youth.
There are many things to get youth off the street, but we are also funding other interventions such as peer group counselling to help. The project in Whitehorse involves ex-street youth who are now in a more stable environment and are being trained as peer counsellors to help others to get off the street and help them with all the issues they are facing.
Without question we are making progress, but this is a new way of doing business for us. It is very much a community-based approach, and we have learned a few things. We have learned that we need to involve Aboriginal people and, more importantly, Aboriginal youth, in the actual community-planning process and in the decision-making process. We need to ensure that where there is a series of culture-specific or relevant services, and where we have mainstream, that we have a seamless delivery network so that people do not fall between the cracks. That is why the community planning process is so important.
The last and most important thing in this process is that it takes time to mobilize communities. It takes time to get people to work together toward a common vision, toward a common goal. The payoffs are that you have less competition for the dollars and people are working towards that.
From the community feedback, we are finding that they appreciate this community planning process.
Mr. Jensen: I would like to address two issues: The first relates to the processes that we have put in place, outlined on page 20. There is a forum of federal-provincial-territorial Aboriginal ministers and leaders from the Aboriginal community. DIAND is the lead for Canada, but HRDC participates.
Within this broad collective of federal Aboriginal processes, there is also an area where HRDC plays a leading role: the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy. In the last few years, we have made specific contributions. We hosted a National Aboriginal Youth Conference about one a month ago; we published the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy, which was developed in conjunction with Aboriginal youth; and we produced and housed on our Web site an inventory of Federal-Provincial-Territorial-Aboriginal, FPTA, working group programs.
We held the National Aboriginal Youth Conference in Edmonton on October 26 and 28. It brought together several hundred Aboriginal youth, who recommended a further dialogue with the federal government on many of these issues. Some of the common themes discussed included education, culture and language, and social issues, such as suicide, teen pregnancy, and drug and alcohol abuse.
The slide entitled "Many Challenges Ahead" covers some of the challenges that we face as a community. The issue of migration to urban areas will obviously not change, because that is where the jobs are. That is why Aboriginal youth and other Aboriginal people are coming to urban areas. This trend has occurred in societies for the last few hundred years and it will certainly continue. In some cities, particularly in the West, have a large proportion of Aboriginal youth in their population, and there will be both social and economic issues that need to be dealt with.
The issue in dealing with these challenges will be a blend of prevention and remedial action. Obviously, you must deal with the problems you face in society today, and those are the remedial measures, which comprise a large part of HRDC's programming. There must be in place good, basic services for health, education and so on. This requires significant cooperation between the federal government, the provincial government and the municipalities and NGOs, which are often delivering this programming.
We feel we are making progress. Mr. Magus spoke about what we are doing in Winnipeg. We are doing this same type of thing in other cities, as well. In the last two or three years, there is greater interest on the part of several provinces in terms of working with us. The Alberta government has approached us on this; the B.C. government has now asked to meet with us. We have had discussions with the Saskatchewan government. As Mr. Magus said, we have quite a good relationship with the Manitoba government. There is a greater interest in working together, no doubt about that.
The homelessness initiatives have provided us with an instrument to bring communities together. As Mr. Holik said, although it does take time, it is much better in the end because everyone is working towards the same goals and objectives.
On the last page, you will note that, in Ottawa, the federal departments are working together better than they have before. There are many discussions occurring at both the ministerial and the bureaucratic level to try to bring people to work together. On the urban Aboriginal component, with both our youth programming and our homelessness programming, in the last couple of years we have had good examples where we have worked well with these other departments.
We are pleased to answer your questions or discuss any issues.
Senator Tkachuk: Do most of the Aboriginals in Saskatoon, Prince Albert and Regina have status? Are most of the urban Aboriginals coming off reserves? Has that been the new increase in the last 10 to 15 years? There has been a dramatic increase in the Aboriginal population in the cities.
Mr. Jensen: Do you mean versus Métis?
Senator Tkachuk: I mean versus non-status.
Mr. Jensen: That is probably a reasonable conclusion. However, our statistics in this respect are very poor and, in fact, are generally not great in respect of Aboriginal people as a group. That seems to be a trend.
However, we have noticed that status Indians from reserves will move to the cities and then back to the reserve. There are many two-way migrations, depending on, I suppose, individual family situations, jobs, et cetera. They do not come to the city and stay, and this mobility issue creates a churning effect on the families involved.
Senator Tkachuk: The result is that we then have problems in urban Aboriginal centres. You mentioned that we have failures in the school system and the health system. You mentioned marriage breakdown, teen pregnancy and other contributing factors. Research will thus be important, because we have federal programming to the reserves on education and health care. Obviously, there has been a breakdown of our delivery of services, causing these young people to migrate to the cities, with no education and really no future. Then there are the non-status and other Aboriginal population, and that would indicate that we have a breakdown in the way that we deal with them through the provincial government programs.
In other words, where are the breakdowns? Are we breaking down at the provincial level in dealing with these people, which might be very different problems than what is happening on the reserves where we are having a problem with graduating young Aboriginal people? Do we have information on that? Who is at fault?
Mr. Jensen: I do not think anyone is really at fault.
Senator Tkachuk: Well, someone is at fault.
Mr. Jensen: This is a social phenomenon and issue that has occurred. There are many levels at which this problem needs to be attacked. As I said earlier, it is a mix of prevention and remedial actions. The more you can do in the way of prevention activities, obviously, the less you will have to do in the way of remedial actions.
The situation is, as I know you are well aware, such that the federal government has a responsibility for natives on reserves. That responsibility has been administered through DIAND, and they are able to provide you with a much better explanation of their programming. However, when individuals move from the reserves to the cities, the responsibility is less clear. The provincial governments feel - and this is what they have told us - that the federal government has the responsibility for status Indians and, perhaps, a shared responsibility in the sense that we contribute through the CHST to social assistance, education and health programming, generally. They feel that we have an obligation there, as well.
To date we have tried, at the bureaucrat level, to set this difference of views aside and try to coordinate our programming as best we can. For example, I met with the deputy minister of the Alberta human resources department about six months ago on this issue. Our discussions focussed on trying to ensure that our programming worked together. For example, if we had the Métis of Alberta serving clients in Edmonton, they used our funding to make the the best integration possible with the province's funding and with the city's funding.
We made all those linkages. I would suggest that this partnership is the best way to get at the existing issues and not spend all our time talking about the jurisdictions. It is obviously a complex problem, because jurisdictions do affect it, particularly when you have this moving from reserve to cities.
The department's programming is pan-Aboriginal. We try to provide funding to all Aboriginal peoples. It is an issue that we have tried to get around by being practical and by trying to work with the various groups involved and blend and meld our programming.
Your question also addressed an issue that I do not feel I am able to answer. You should direct to DIAND the question about the situation on reserve, what is causing these problems and where we are going.
Senator Tkachuk: I believe said that 2,708 out of 35,000 people went to your program. Is that the right figure, or did I miss something? Is that a success rate?
Mr. Jensen: If you wish, senator, we can give you a specific note on all our results for the Aboriginal Human Resource Strategy since it came into effect about two-and-one-half years ago. Since that time, we have managed 65,000 clients, and 21,000 have found jobs. We have saved $16 million on E.I. savings. The numbers I gave you were for this last fiscal year. We said in the last fiscal year we had 36,000 clients. We found almost 12,000 jobs. Of these, 2,700 were for youth. In other words, we found work for 2,700 youth in that last fiscal year across the country.
Senator Tkachuk: The 35,000 number was the total client population, of which 2,700 were youth that found jobs?
Mr. Jensen: That is correct. We found employment for approximately 9,500 adults. If you wish, we can provide that information.
Senator Tkachuk: That would be useful. Are there people whose needs are not being met?
Mr. Jensen: I would answer that question in the aggregate. There is always more you can do on the prevention side. Many of those things are being discussed in other fora with health and education ministers and so on. When you look at the entire population, you feel you could do more if you had more dollars. However, with the dollars we have, we are trying to leverage funds from our partners and from the community.
We are quite successful. We have had a good record with the Aboriginal Human Resource Strategy. If you look at the last year, about one-third of our clients found jobs immediately, or within that time period. That is a pretty good rate of return for what we in the government call "marginalized groups" - persons with disabilities, Aboriginal peoples, visible minorities, people who are recent immigrants or are not part of the mainstream. Our success rate on marginalized or targeted groups is often only around 15 or 20 per cent, depending on the intervention, because it takes a while to get them back to work. If we have an intervention success rate here of around 30 to 35 per cent, depending on the year, that is reasonable. We are making progress. However, it is, over time, a blend of very good prevention and remedial measures as necessary.
We looked at lessons learned a few years ago. We found that the conditions conducive to long-term success - and Mr. Magus and Mr. Holik spoke about this - included community control, sound governance and accountability, comprehensive coordinated strategies, effective partnerships, community capacity-building, stable and flexible funding, and individual case management work best. I will explain those.
It works better with community control because our old interventions often did not work well if they were not delivered in a culturally appropriate manner. There is an issue for the government, obviously, when you have 800 Aboriginal nations. We are dealing with DIAND. We have made a decision, for economies of scale, frankly, to try to group them into about 80 groups. That is why we have 79 AHRDA holders. That local flexibility and the culturally appropriate interventions are quite important.
At the same time, we put in strong accountability mechanisms. I mentioned the financial and results-oriented stuff we asked for.
Partnership is very important because there are so many jurisdictions here that if you do not work with the partners at all levels, people will slip through the cracks. You also run into situations where you the priorities are not being aligned. It is better to bring the people together, align the priorities and have everyone marching to the same drummer.
We need stable and flexible funding arrangements because these problems take more than one year to solve. If you have do not have funding that goes on over three to five years, at least, in some cases you might as well not bother because it would be short-term interventions and you need a long one.
Lastly, individual case management works best. We talked about that this morning. The 16-year-old angry, poorly educated Aboriginal youth must be managed through a series of steps to get back into the workforce.
These are the lessons that we have learned over the last few years, and this is how we are trying to run our programming.
Senator Tkachuk: On page 8 of your brief, you mention that roughly 4 per cent of total government spending goes to Aboriginal peoples. I always found this hard to do. I go to the Department of Indian Affairs, and they have $7 billion. Then there is money spread all over the government. Then there are the Métis. Let us take status, non-status, as two groups. How much money do we spend? Is this 4 per cent of all departments? Of the total government budget? Is that what this number is?
Mr. Jensen: Yes.
Senator Tkachuk: How much is that, approximately?
Mr. Jensen: It is a little over $300 million.
Senator Tkachuk: This is 4 per cent outside of DIAND?
Mr. Jensen: It is 4 per cent of the total federal government spending. HRDC's budget for spending on Aboriginal people is in the $300 million plus range. That figure is about 4 per cent of the $7 billion or $8 billion you mentioned. I do not know what the total figure is. You would have to ask DIAND. Our department spends 4 per cent of the total federal government spending on Aboriginal people.
Senator Tkachuk: If you add up DIAND, the Department of Health and everywhere else, 4 per cent goes into your department?
Mr. Jensen: That is right. That figure is $300 million plus. That is 4 per cent of the federal government's Aboriginal budget.
Senator Christensen: I know that you have outlined the process. However, one of the reasons that we are undertaking this study and having the different departments come before us is so that we have a very clear sense of where all the programming is, where the funding is, how it operates in each department so we cover the entire spectrum.
Could you be clearer? In your programming, on page 2, under HRDC programming you show "youth and Aboriginal." How is that programming identified? Who says, "Okay, these are all the different kinds of programs we should have"?
I know you explain that you have joint ventures and work in conjunction with Health and Indian Affairs and so forth. How is that identified? How do we get that out so that people know? Everything is lost so easily in the bureaucracy. Where is the money? Where are the programs? How do we access them? It is such a convoluted maze that people must go through to find all of this.
Mr. Jensen: It is complex.
Senator Christensen: We lose money as a result. It is not used wisely. Through your programs, how do we streamline this so the money gets to where it is needed? Many of these programs must have other funding, matching funding and that sort of thing. Could you make it simpler?
Mr. Jensen: I will provide a bit of history. Governments tend to deal with these issues by dealing with problems as they occur. Fifty years ago, you may have noticed a problem with Aboriginal people's education. The federal government put money in there. Then maybe it was their health, and it put money in there.
In our day, we have, as you say, a mishmash of programming that, for historical and legitimate reasons, built up in this way because the programming always comes into place because of cabinet decisions. There have been cabinet decisions around all these programs - some fairly recent. However, we do get into situations where perhaps we are not working together as well as we can be, or the programming may be somewhat dated.
On the Aboriginal side, we feel that our programming has been revisited in terms of its relevance quite recently. The AHRDS, which is our biggest chunk of programming - around $300 million - is only two and one-half years old. It went through several stages. There was originally a stage where we dealt directly with Aboriginal clients. Then we went through a program called "Pathways." Then there were some regional bilateral agreements with Aboriginal groups where we gave them some money to do the same type of thing, and, finally, we came to the AHRDS. We have gone through an evolution in our programming. If you talk to most of those 79 AHRDA holders, they think the model is a good one, in other words, devolving the program designed for the local level to their community group. I am sure they would have a million issues about X, Y and Z, but I believe there is widespread support for the model of we are trying to do.
Homelessness - our other major chunk - was designed a couple of years ago, and included the latest thinking, bringing community groups together and having flexibility on the ground.
The third point is that the federal government realizes that we have to work together to bring this together. This is what the reference group on Aboriginal issues is trying to do. Bureaucrats are bureaucrats are trying to do this through the federal councils. We have had some success. We have the Winnipeg Agreement and the Vancouver Agreement where we have brought together the feds, the province and the municipality. I do not think we can forget that this programming was put in place to solve specific societal problems and is being used quite successfully in many cases. As I said earlier, we feel we have good numbers that show our programming is having some effect.
There is also the issue of overall accountability through Parliament for the monies that are being spent, and if the accountability results are not produced over time, the programming would be changed.
Senator Christensen: We are dealing with urban areas. If we look at rural areas, because that is where the initial responsibilities are, we could perhaps strengthen some of the rural abilities for finding jobs. We had a subcommittee that did some work in the North this last year. It looked at the territories and the First Nations and the agreements they have with parks. One of the areas that became evident is training for persons in the tourism industry to upgrade their skills to be able to service that industry and then, in turn, be able to see economic benefits as a result of the parks there.
Do you have any programs at the present time that would meet those needs? Is it possible to develop those kinds of programs through the university of the north? Do you have any comments on that?
Mr. Jensen: I have a couple of thoughts. We do try to make the linkages between our AHRDA holders and the private sector in some of these rural areas. In Northern Saskatchewan, work is going on with a forestry project to bring unemployed Aboriginal people together with a big forestry client. Syncrude and Suncor in Northern Alberta have traditionally had well-established human resource programs with respect to recruiting Aboriginal people. We try to make those linkages between the AHRDA holders and the big companies.
We also have other programs. One of the big meat processors outside Winnipeg has been looking at engaging Aboriginal people, and I think Manitoba Hydro has done work on that.
Mr. Magus: A great deal of work is going on in the rural areas. For us, it mostly comes through the AHRDS strategy because now the Aboriginal organizations have control of these resources. So they are going to industry and cutting out some of the stuff that we used to do. In the example that Mr. Jensen cites about the meat processors - Maple Leaf Hog in Brandon - a large part of that was done between the Manitoba Métis Federation and Maple Leaf who came to the table as full partners. We had some part in facilitating things like that. Now they are basically picking and choosing, and industry is becoming more educated about the fact these people have resources and want to participate in a bilateral way.
Senator Christensen: If we made a request or a recommendation that that type of training be available in the North, would you be able to meet those kinds of needs?
Mr. Jensen: The question is multi-dimensioned. If I could answer it more broadly, when you said "the North" -
Senator Christensen: The territories.
Mr. Jensen: We did not talk about the territories. There is also an issue in the Northwest Territories in regard to large construction projects, such as the northern pipelines and so on, and other projects such as Inco and Voisey's Bay. There you get into situations where there is actually a shortage of labour in those areas. I would answer that by saying several issues usually need to be addressed.
In terms of assuring that training be provided and that we make the best possible linkages between unemployed Aboriginal people and these large projects, those are definitely priorities for the department. If you wish to give us guidance in that area, it would be welcome.
We do not have a big pot of programming sitting out there that is available for these projects. We have a small amount of money that we can use, but as I said, the theory and the concept behind the AHRDA holders is to try to get the money out on the ground to the people who need it.
We did not keep money in Ottawa, if that is what you are asking, for the things that arise or at least a large amount of money. That occasionally is an issue. We do not have much money in Ottawa. It is across the country. When these big projects do arise, you are quite correct.
Senator Christensen: These would not be what we call big projects, but they are projects that would perhaps be ongoing.
Could we get for this committee a list of programs that you offer at the present time that are specifically for Aboriginal people in urban and rural areas?
Mr. Jensen: We will give your clerk a package that describes all of our Aboriginal programming, the breakdown, where it is spent, the dollars and so on.
Senator Christensen: Just a little paragraph for each one.
Mr. Jensen: We will be as concise as we can.
The Chairman: To carry on with what Senator Christensen mentioned, first, our committee went across the country in each of our regions to meet with the different agencies in the urban centres. When we were in Alberta and Saskatchewan we found that the community agencies said that unless they were part of the Aboriginal political organizations, they were left out of the funding process.
It is an Aboriginal political matter - the implication is that if you did not vote for me, I will not help your community. We have been hearing that. We visited seven agencies in Edmonton and each one indicated that they were having difficulty accessing the HRDC programs because they had to go through the political organizations. Is there any way that you could alter the process so that these smaller agencies could access some of these dollars?
Second, in your experience, especially in respect of homelessness and many other issues, do you find that some of it is the residual effect of the residential schools within the family unit? How are you dealing with that?
A third issue concerns apprenticeships. In Alberta, they will be looking for over 70,000 trades people within the next five years. The provincial government has said that. We are finding that it is difficult to access apprenticeships for our people.
A fourth issue is that you say there are jobs for these people, but what I am finding, especially in the oil and pipeline industries, is that they are hired to do some slashing and then they are put down. In that way, the industries then claim that they have met the hiring quota. However, it is not steady employment. The latent racism between the industry and the Aboriginal communities is terrible. That is what we have heard. Those are some comments to which I would like you to respond.
Mr. Jensen: I will ask Mr. Holik to speak to the homelessness, in a moment. There probably is an issue around smaller agencies. The department decided, for many reasons, to work with a limited number of AHRDA holders, but 80 is not considered very limited. That is still a large administrative and bureaucratic requirement on the department.
The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples addressed this to some extent when they recommended that the federal government look at collapsing its relations with Aboriginal peoples. The logic is that you end up spending so much on administration, federal bureaucrats, and local band and council bureaucrats, that the funding you actually dispense to the people who need it is greatly reduced.
We tried to do with economies of scale. In doing that, some smaller groups have probably been left behind. In Alberta, for example, the Métis nation has the whole of the province. Then there are three major First Nations, AHRDA holders, which are big. They have bands and councils, and thus, they have a complex job. I would not doubt that some smaller groups are not able to participate as much as they can.
I am quite concerned, and we have talked to AHRDA holders about this. They are under an obligation to serve all of their clients in that area. If you have evidence or information, I would appreciate receiving it, because we will talk to them about that. If they are not servicing all of their groups and members that they are obliged to serve, then there is an issue to be addressed. We are not shy about talking to them about it.
It is not in their long-term best interest if such problems arise, and we will tell them that. If you have specific information that indicates there may be issues, we would be happy to look into it. However, there will always be a dynamic between the big group and the servicing of the smaller groups. To date, we have been able to work it out in most locations. If it is not being worked out, we would be happy to look at it either through Ottawa or the Alberta regional office.
I will move on to talk about apprenticeships. There is a federal issue around its general labour market programming in what are called "devolved regions." Alberta, Quebec and Manitoba are devolved regions, where the provincial governments, in the 1996-97 period, agreed to sign labour market development agreements. For the general population, the Alberta government delivers federal dollars through labour market programming, in which they do a fair number of apprenticeships. I read a statistic the other day that indicated two-thirds of the numbers for the Alberta spending on skills development were for apprenticeships.
If there are specific issues in that area that are not being addressed, I would appreciate hearing about it. We will then raise it with the appropriate provincial government. Obviously, we must ensure that the programming is trying to resolve these issues.
I agree that there is an issue over sustainable jobs. We must ensure that, for the long-term sustainability of this program, sustainable jobs are created. We have somewhat of an economic dynamic here, or a labour market dynamic, in that in rural areas, one problem is that there are not many sustainable jobs. There are seasonal jobs or there are short-term jobs. This crops up as an issue for people who want to stay in their communities. This does not only affect the Aboriginal community, it also affects the general population. This dynamic exists - if people want to stay in their communities, it is often seasonal work that provides the easiest access. We will consider this problem for the next generation of AHRDAs to see if there is a way to put more emphasis on sustainable employment.
I will now ask Mr. Holik to comment on homelessness.
Mr. Holik: The causes of homelessness are multi-faceted. Although I do not have any data with me to support the claim that residential schools is one cause, it would no doubt be among other issues, such as alcoholism and dislocation, as a cause.
That is probably why we see many culturally relevant interventions, including the use of elders and cultural ceremonies such as sweat lodges, being used today to help people cope with what they have gone through. In that way, they are able to move past that and get on with their lives. That is as much as I know of that situation.
The Chairman: When we did our tour in Edmonton, we met with seven agencies. Each agency said that because of the political atmosphere with the Métis nation and the Treaty 6, they could not access any funding. They are doing a wonderful job with next to zero funding in the communities. A reporter accompanied us, and he reported that I managed to annoy all the Métis leaders, but they have been mad at me for 30 years, so I will not worry about that. I also questioned why the political organizations are controlling the program dollars for the communities. Women in the communities have very little access to anything. It is the same for seniors and elders. That is just a comment.
Mr. Jensen: That is a comment we take seriously. I would like to look at the situation further to know who these groups are and what their complaints are. We will talk to our regional representative in Edmonton, Alberta, to look into this further. There is the possibility that the Métis Nation of Alberta and the Treaty 6 organization may have found other service providers than the groups that are complaining. It may be possible that the clients are actually being served, which sometimes happens.
Let us look into it, because we want to ensure that these issues are dealt with. If there cannot be long-term political sustainability for these programs, the Aboriginal community will not benefit. There must be sustainability.
The Chairman: I found, in Manitoba, that they are doing a very good job. Denise Thomas in the Southeastern region has many training programs, such as nursing, in the communities. These are relevant to the community and thus long-term for the community. It is a process that must be looked at.
I hope that when we complete this study you will have the important information that you require on this matter so that we can work together to resolve many of these issues that are coming forward.
Mr. Jensen: That would be useful. We would be happy to work with you or comment on any reports that you are working on.
Senator Léger: Many of my questions have been discussed or answered. You talked about urban Aboriginal youth. Are these six major cities examples? Is anything done in smaller areas? Do you have small cities in the program? I know you touched on that somewhat when you spoke about Saskatchewan or the North and what was being done for seasonal work. However, are monies being given to those areas?
Perhaps we have the list that Mr. Holik mentioned of all those nice things, but if not, I would like to have it. You are working with homelessness on the ground.
Is there any money in your programs for training employers? We are trying to help people who do not know our system of work at all. Very often it is not only Aboriginals. Today many people have never seen a mother or father work, so you must teach them how to stay at a job. Is there money and special care being given to those employers who receive these people? You must receive them properly.
Mr. Jensen: I would answer your question on the cities first. The department has a very strong presence in communities across the country. HRDC has about 300 offices across the country, including all our sub-offices. We are in many smaller communities. In Quebec and Ontario, we have a lot of offices in small communities as well. The communities we used were illustrative of where there is a more serious problem. For example, on homelessness, we intervene in 61 cities across the country, working with the province. We will not go into the province unless the province agrees that we should go in. We work closely with the province and municipality in 61 communities.
Apart from the department's 300 offices, there are the AHRDA holders, which serve many small communities. I cannot give you the numbers off the top of my head, but I have been in the Métis Nation of Alberta offices in Edmonton and seen their map marked with all the locations of their little offices. So yes, they are working in those communities, and so are the Aboriginal first nation groups.
We do provide training for employers. We do a training called "community-capacity building." In other words, some of these AHRDA holders do not have the labour market experience that the department does. We have 40 or 50 years in training people for jobs. My director general of the Aboriginal Relations Office, Bayla Kolk, will send in a team with the regional office. Let us say it is Manitoba. We will send in a team from Ottawa and the regional office, and we would train some of these people as to what they had to do. We would train them as to requirements on reporting and financial accountability. We train them on various types of programming that would work in certain situations. Of course throughout the year we monitor them and go back and see how it is going. We have an interactive relationship with many of these AHRDA holders.
These offices are very well run. You could not tell the difference between the Métis Nation office in Edmonton and one of our department's offices. It is a well-run office, getting people jobs. I have visited it and seen what they are doing. I am not saying everything they do meets our criteria, but it is a well-run office. I visited the Vancouver office of the Vancouver Employment Society, which covers the lower mainland - that is another very well run office. Again, you could not really tell the difference between that and one of our regular offices. They know what they are doing, and they are working well with the community to get people jobs. I know it is this way in many parts of the country.
We have an interactive relationship that works quite well. We do occasionally, to be frank, face political issues. Financial issues arise sometimes. We treat them quite seriously. When we took this conceptual shift, if you will, to a devolution, we insisted on certain things. These include: they must serve all their clients, they must meet their financial obligations, and they must give us results. We are quite firm on those things. There are always ongoing discussions, but we are clear about what we are looking for from the federal side.
Senator Léger: The human aspect must be huge.
Mr. Jensen: It is, yes.
Senator Léger: We are not just talking about reports or paper. It is so delicate. Where does it come from? Well, it comes from history. It is our fault, in a sense, but that is the past. It must be so human and individual.
Mr. Jensen: Senator, Ms Kolk's group is doing a consultative assessment and working with the AHRDA holders. We want to tell the story of the AHRDA holders, because these raw statistics do not tell you the whole story. They do not tell you what this AHRDA holder is doing with this group of people. We will do a document within the next few months - it may take a year by the time we produce it - that tells their story.
We have two or three reasons for doing it, one being to bring together these stores so other AHRDA holders know them. As well, the minister must go back to cabinet in the next few years and explain exactly what we did with $300 million a year. The human element, as you say, always reaches people better.
At the end of November, we will be bringing all the AHRDA holders together in Ottawa with all the federal departments and ministries. Many of the ones you will be meeting will be coming to our meeting. We will talk about what works with the AHRDAs, what does not work, and where we are. If you like, we can certainly share that report with you. It would be perhaps useful background for you in your deliberations.
Senator Hubley: On page 12, I have a few questions I would like you to clarify for me. One is the 35,000 plus clients. Is that across Canada?
Mr. Jensen: That is correct, yes.
Senator Hubley: Is that the number of people who contacted your office, or is that the number of people you were able to accept as clients? Is that only an Aboriginal person who needs employment, or would that 35,000 include perhaps people that you would not be able to help because of health problems or things of that nature? Does the 35,000 figure include the number of people who contacted you for help?
Mr. Jensen: Or the AHRDA holder, because if you recall, the programming is delivered through the AHRDA holder. Let us again use the case of the Métis Nation of Alberta in Edmonton. They would canvass and survey their communities in one way or another, and they open their offices. Many people walk in the door. At the ones I have visited, people in the community come through the door looking for jobs. There is labour market information posted there. They have counsellors who talk to them about training. There would also be referrals from community organizations. If that Aboriginal community has people on social assistance, the counsellors there would refer people for job counselling and skill development training and so on. The linkages are made in several ways.
I would also say that both First Nation AHRDA holders and Métis AHRDA holders are obligated to server each other's clients. If a Métis individual comes into a First Nations urban office, rural or wherever, they must be served. That is one of our rules.
Senator Hubley: The 89 per cent completion rate of interventions means that in 89 per cent of the cases, you have been able to re-direct this person, give him or her counselling. What is an intervention? How extensive is that? Does that mean that this person has a job?
Mr. Jensen: It means 35,000 were case managed in that year. We had taken them through a number of interventions. It does not mean they all got jobs. For the reasons I gave earlier, some of them take more than one year to get into that job. They went through a series of interventions. The 16-year-old angry Aboriginal male I described earlier was not atypical. There are also young girls in their teens, single mothers. We are not generally dealing with Aboriginal youth who have gone to Carleton or Queen's or the University of Alberta. They often generally just go into the labour market on their own. It is people who do not have post-secondary education or who may not have finished their high school or, in some cases, junior high school.
Senator Hubley: What is the condition of the 11 per cent for whom you are not able to complete an intervention? What happens to that 11 per cent?
Mr. Jensen: They probably gave up for one reason or another. They did not participate or come back. As I say, we are dealing with a group that is marginalized from society. They are angry, and they have many problems. I think a 90 per cent completion rate is pretty good.
Even with our normal labour market interventions, there are various reasons why they may not complete the intervention. Some of them might have found a job right away and they did not need to complete it. They could have gotten married. It could be life circumstances. That is a pretty good completion rate for a marginalized group. We are dealing with people who usually have many problems.
Senator Hubley: Your program's partners for careers, et cetera, are they available in most urban centres, large urban centres? This was the Winnipeg experience. Would they be broad programs?
Mr. Jensen: They are available in every large urban centre. I have seen them. They are population-based in the sense that we spend more dollars and concentrate more effort where there are large groups of people to serve. Although we have operations in Toronto, for example, they are proportionately less than they would be in Winnipeg because it is a higher percentage of the population there.
In the second tier of cities, it would depend on the population. We are in Prince Albert. I am sure there are smaller cities without large Aboriginal populations where we do not have very much programming. There we would use our normal offices. We have 300 of these offices around the country. An Aboriginal client who came in would be served by HRDC's normal programming. I do not believe they would fall through the cracks. We believe we have sufficient coverage to handle these clients.
Senator Hubley: Is there any tracking of individuals? For example, if a young person was in a program in Winnipeg, does he or she just disappear and maybe show up somewhere else? Is that what mobility means?
Mr. Magus: The case management that Mr. Jensen discussed is computer-based case management. For example, if the initial intervention was in Winnipeg, the individual's social insurance number would go into the system. If that person moved to another jurisdiction and an intervention was taken there, when that intervention is uploaded, the social insurance numbers would connect, and they would get a reject because it is already in the system. Then they would know where it came from. They would be able to contact the initial point of contact and ask what was known about and what had been done with this client. That mechanism would allow tracking. It is not as sophisticated because we have the numbers of agreement holders as we would in our own department. However, it will connect through the system.
Senator Sibbeston: I am from the Northwest Territories. The process of Aboriginal people changing lives, moving from the bush, as it were, to the towns and onwards to the larger communities has been a phenomenon that has happened. In the Northwest Territories, Yellowknife is the biggest centre. The urban Aboriginal problems that are spoken of when I get south do not seem to exist as remarkably in the Northwest Territories.
The process is people moving from the bush to little communities. Some people adapt and make the change; but others are unable to make the change and have many social problems. Invariably, they drink and it causes social problems. That is the phenomenon of Aboriginal people in the small communities. We have little friendship centres in places like Fort Simpson, where the friendship centre is supposed to help people integrate into the modern community.
Some native people move to Yellowknife, a bigger community. Most of them go there because of job opportunities. Not many go to Yellowknife without any purpose. Those people who move to the bigger centre to seek a job, have a purpose, work and integrate into the community reasonably well.
While I know there are problems, I am wondering whether anything has been done to show the success of Aboriginal people moving from communities to the larger centres. I have aunts and relatives who have moved from Fort Simpson to Edmonton who have done well, but I also had an aunt who died on the streets. We have that situation.
As you are sitting in Ottawa here, with the responsibility of somehow alleviating the plight of Aboriginal peoples, particularly in urban centres, do you do have an exact understanding of the phenomenon of the situation of Aboriginal people? This has been a country-wide phenomenon, rural people moving to the urban centres, non-native and native people. Most of them manage and function successfully, but some are not successful.
Do you have any studies, or do you do any work to identify and try to understand that phenomenon that has been occurring in our country all these years? Thousands of Aboriginals make the transition successfully, but there are those who do not. Why is it that some succeed and some do not? Do you ever look at that to get an understanding? If you have that understanding, perhaps you might be able to target people to help them be successful.
Mr. Jensen: This is a question you should also put to Heritage Canada and DIAND officials. You have discussed many issues affecting demographics and society generally.
In regard to the labour market aspects, we have looked at it and look at it continually. In fact, our conference next week with the AHRDA holders will address this specific issue about why people are moving and what labour market programming we can use to help, and so on.
The lessons that we have learned in respect of labour market and social programming are the ones that I spoke to in respect of delivering culturally appropriate programs requiring case management, a stable funding base and flexibility at the local level to deal with individual situations.
We have an idea of what works to help people out of these situations. Concerning the broader issue of the socio-economic dynamics of reserves versus urban areas, our department does not do extensive research. Perhaps this question should be asked of DIAND, or perhaps some universities have looked at this. However, I do not have any knowledge of that issue.
Senator Sibbeston: Your colleagues and you are hired by the government to help people. I am curious: Do you know anything about these people that you are trying to help? Have you ever studied them? Do you have any idea what you are dealing with? I am curious about that. Undoubtedly, you work in offices where you are far removed from the reality of the issues. The federal government pays you good incomes and you are given the task of doing something to alleviate the social conditions of Aboriginal people across the country.
I ask you this in a sincere way: What do you know about these people? What do you know about the mind-set of people? Do you know what happens to these people? Do you understand the human conditions, thinking and the mind-set of the people that you are dealing with and trying to help? Or is it necessary to know these things?
Mr. Jensen: Yes, it is necessary. Our experience has shown us that, when young Aboriginal people come to a large city, a university or a strange environment, they often withdraw. They feel "out of place." This is why federal programming in the past few years has evolved to include culturally appropriate programming such as friendship centres. We found that, if there are other Aboriginal people assisting them, the transition can be easier.
Why they feel that way, I do not know. My daughter just went away to university, and she is troubled because she is away from home. How much of it is caused by the simple fact of moving away from home and the normal problems that arise from that and how much is specific to Aboriginal people, I am not sure that I know. However, I do know that our programming works better if we provide it in a culturally appropriate way.
As far as trying to understand "where people are at," we have visited individual AHRDA holders continuously. Next Monday and Tuesday, I will be in Saskatchewan where I will visit the First Nations in Saskatoon and the Métis Association of Saskatchewan's employment arm in Regina. We talk to them frequently, and they often come to Ottawa to talk to us. I have been on reserve, as have most of my staff. We try to get to know these people.
As I say, our primary job at HRDC encompasses labour market and human development in respect of integration to society. Our views would obviously be focussed on those responsibilities. There are others who could possibly comment further on your concern.
Senator Tkachuk: You are dealing with the failures of the other programs.
Mr. Jensen: To some degree, yes, we are. This is why I earlier spoke to the need for aggregate prevention as well as for remedial efforts to create a strong educational system; a strong health care system; and strong, vibrant Aboriginal communities across the country. Some communities that are strong and vibrant, but unfortunately, they are not all like that.
Those factors give people a "leg up," and when they are moving into the workplace and into society, they are much better prepared and do not need these remedial actions. That is why I would suggest to the committee that you focus on the prevention, as well as the remedial, because both of those issues exist in respect of Aboriginal youth.
Senator Sibbeston: Can you tell me the type of employment that Aboriginal people are trained for? What are the experiences and the kinds of jobs most often obtained by the people that you help train under your programs?
Mr. Jensen: A number of years ago it was often blue collar work. However, that has changed significantly in the last while. At a conference six months ago I heard an Aboriginal leader mentioned that when he went to university 20 years ago there were one dozen Aboriginal people in Canadian universities. Since then, there has been a huge increase, although I cannot remember the figure he expressed.
Our experience is indicating that more Aboriginal people are moving into higher skilled occupations. Not all the jobs with Syncrude and Suncor entail clearing the brush and driving the trucks. There are a number of skilled trades that they are training for. As I said earlier, the Alberta government has a big focus on apprenticeship training, and there are a number of Aboriginal groups included. Many of our AHRDA holders focus on this.
However, the dynamic exists such that if people want to work on reserve in remote areas, they find seasonal work. There are only certain types of jobs available, such as forestry, mining and fishing, in some cases. That is only part of the issue. There are many Aboriginal groups connected to large centres, for example Treaty 7 or 8 - I can never remember which - South of Calgary.
The Chairman: It is treaty 7.
Mr. Jensen: They are in an area where there are many jobs and much economic development. There are major Aboriginal groups in South-western Ontario. One of the largest Aboriginal nations in the country is just outside Brantford, Ontario. I am not sure that we can answer your question by pointing to one area only. Aboriginal people, it seems to us, access jobs at all levels throughout society. We feel our job is to try to help them at the levels where they desire to work, be that highly skilled or seasonal work.
Our programming tries to maintain that focus so that the AHRDA holders in Calgary or Vancouver or Brantford could focus more of their efforts on high skilled jobs, and perhaps some of the remote AHRDA holders might focus more on forestry or mining or other local industries.
Senator Sibbeston: Would you be able to provide us with information, without dedicating staff to analyze every file, on the jobs that have been found? That would provide us with an idea of the type of success that you have had. In a sense, one can say that you are accountable, as it were, in providing for and dealing with 35,000 clients and 12,000 jobs. Well, that is what you have done for all the work and all the energy you have put into this area this year. Could we see the results of those efforts so that we have a better understanding of the type of work?
Mr. Jensen: We certainly can give you anecdotal evidence of the types of jobs that we are creating. Our data collection is not always sophisticated enough to know exactly how many jobs were created for each category. However, we can include in the report to the clerk the anecdotal evidence that we possess.
The Chairman: We talked about the migration of people within our country. I was involved in a study in about 1984 in Edmonton about the movement of Aboriginal people within the city of Edmonton. We found that the majority of them were homeowners and that they had been living there for over 25 years. Thus, we are dealing with generations of Aboriginal people living within the city limits. The study also revealed that they are marginalized to a great extent. That is where much of the anger and identity issues are arising - with the people who have lived in the urban centres for a long time.
That is what is happening. This is where the gangs are coming from. Some have gone on and done excellent work and they have become good, strong members of society. However, there is also that other segment that had been marginalized into low income and low housing.
You say you have some anger management programs and that sort of thing. Are you insisting that your stakeholders provide those programs for the people? I have a whole bunch of grandchildren. Some of them are in that same situation. No matter how hard we try, they still have those difficulties. Does every office have that type of opportunity? That is my first question.
Second, the situation with our teenaged mothers is tragic. They cannot find jobs or apartments. They are in a delicate situation. We are seeing babies are having babies. They are trying to upgrade their skills and trying to be good moms. What programs are you providing in that area?
Another concern is older women. Our older women are the most impoverished people in all of Canadian society. They cannot get jobs. They are mothers, but they have not been able to really participate in the mainstream. They are living on next to nothing and they are usually raising grandchildren. What type of training or support are you giving them to become viable community members within the urban setting? Housing is so desperately needed; how can you work every day when you do not have a proper house in which to live? If you are living in a two-bedroom apartment with three generations, how can you survive? How is your program integrating these serious urban issues that we see every day?
Mr. Jensen: I will ask Mr. Magus to comment on this, too, because we should talk about how we work with other departments. It boils down to if we see a problem that is preventing us from doing our work; we work to try to bring that together.
In regard to whether there is exactly the same program in each area, the answer is no. AHRDA holders have the flexibility to design the programming for their local conditions. However, in the large centres, I would say that you could almost certainly find pretty well the same types of programs. In some cases, rationalization has occurred. I am not sure about the Alberta situation, but it is possible the Métis Nation of Alberta has decided to do some things and Treaty 7 in Calgary has decided to do others and so they overlap. I know those discussions go on.
However, can a Métis or an Aboriginal person in general get the kind of programming they need? My experience is that they can. I have seen the AHRDA holders try to bend their programming and create programming to help if there is a need there. They are generally pretty good about that.
In regard to teenage mothers, we have a specific program. The Aboriginal Human Resources Development Strategy brought together some existing programming under one envelope. One piece that was brought in there was a childcare program. We have $25 million that creates about 7,000 childcare spaces. We will put the exact number in the note to the clerk. This is of great benefit to teenaged mothers. They can then get the child care spaces quite close to where they live. While we are not meeting all of the demand that exists in the country, obviously nobody is for childcare spaces, it is a good first step.
In regard to older women, I am not aware of any specific programs for them. That is probably ignorance on my part because there probably are, with 79 older holders.
Theoretically, there is no age restriction. If there is a group of individuals who need help to re-enter the labour market, there is no reason they should not be getting that help. If there are specific issues there, we would be glad to discuss it with specific AHRDA holders. Generally, the AHRDA have been good about working with us on priorities. They may not go in the priority this year, but they will consider them in future years.
The Chairman: What is the situation in regard to people with disabilities?
Mr. Jensen: There is funding for people with disabilities within the AHRDS. This is another part that was brought together.
Mr. Holik: In terms of housing, we have a number of projects. In Winnipeg we have worked with teenaged mothers, getting them off the street and providing them with a secure residence as well as programming to get into self-sufficiency.
We have funded a number of shelters that accommodate families with children. Under the National Homeless Initiative, there is the residential rehabilitation assistance program that provides funding for upgrades. That is a CMHC's program for affordable housing rental programs.
There are a number of things we do to try to get people into a safe, secure residence.
Mr. Magus: I can talk about approaches that try to bring all of these things together. Before I do that I would like to mention an interesting project that is aimed at older workers. It is called the "Centre for Education and Work." It has been running about six months and involves prior assessment and recognition. There are many people - not necessarily young people - who have life experience that should translate into work or educational credentials. We are working on an Aboriginal-specific way on that with some of the best people in the country who were displaced when their centre was changed under Manitoba's restructuring. We have some work going on there that can be of assistance.
Another good example is in the area of daycare workers. We have people who are certainly no strangers to looking after children. We need to get that recognized and then just top them up so they can be fast-tracked into some of these occupations. That is also applicable in health care where we have a large number and a big demand in Manitoba.
In regard to single parents, we have a good agreement with the Province of Manitoba in the form of a memorandum of understanding so that people can remain on social assistance while they take upgrading. We are able to lever our money that way.
In Manitoba, a fairly large percentage of the young people on social assistance are single parents. In the Aboriginal Centre there is an alternative high school that had enrolment of about 450 last year.
We have child care support as well from Health Canada. In Winnipeg's core area, where there is a high percentage of Aboriginal population, there are many daycares and so on in place. There is significant activity.
In regard to holistic approaches, we would all agree that the problems are complex, when we get on the ground. We need to have a number of departments and orders of government and private and public interest to participate to solve some of these problems. That was the genesis of what we had as the Aboriginal Single Window where a client or a proponent can come to a portal and say, "What do I do about this?" Whether it is something that is an HRDC program or something where DIAND, Health Canada, the Province of Manitoba or one of the many organizations we deal with may play a role, we can hook that person up. These partnerships bring a number of threads together to weave a funding to support something that is a holistic solution. That includes issues around healing and so on.
The Chairman: If there are no other questions or comments, I thank you very much for appearing before this committee this morning. It was very enlightening and interesting. I am sure we will be calling on you again.
The committee adjourned.