Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 16 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, April 16, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:05 a.m. to examine access, provision and delivery of services, policy and jurisdictional issues, employment and education, access to economic opportunities, youth participation and empowerment, and other related matters.
Senator Thelma J. Chalifoux (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: I should like to welcome the representative of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, Chief Dorey. It is a pleasure to have you here this morning. I am sure you will share some interesting statistics with us. Please proceed with your presentation.
Mr. Dwight A. Dorey, National Chief, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples: Good morning, honourable senators. Thank you for this opportunity to appear before you. With me is Jamie Gallant, the former national youth representative on the national board of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, who is now working as a labour market intern with the congress.
In my brief presentation, I do not plan to go into any detail on the appalling statistics concerning Aboriginal children and youth in our country, since I believe you are already familiar with them. Instead, I will focus on what we can do to change those statistics, how we can engage our young people in developing solutions and, equally as important, work as catalysts with them to become the leaders in managing positive outcomes. Before I do so, I should like to give you an updated review on the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples and those whose interests we have been elected to serve.
The Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, CAP, is the national advocacy organization for Indian and Metis people who do not live on Indian Act reserves, and are incorrectly labelled ``First Nations.''
According to the Statistics Canada 1996 census, there are more than 1.1million Aboriginal people in Canada. This year's census will substantially boost that figure. Of that number, nearly 80per cent reside away from Indian Act reserves. They do not receive any benefits for services under the provisions of the Indian Act. In fact, slightly more than 50per cent of registered or status Indians do not live on Indian Act reserves, with mobility to urban centres on the rise, a trend in keeping with the changing demographics of the Canadian population, as revealed by recent data from Statistics Canada.
With the enactment of Bill C-31 in the mid-1980s, many thousands of our people regained or were granted their status as registered Indians, including most of the chiefs from our constituent member associations. As a Mi'kmaq Indian man and national chief, I am a 16-year-old Indian, thanks to Bill C-31. I suppose that makes me uniquely qualified to be at this table discussing youth issues. It goes to show how deceiving appearances can be, and I say that to remind you who we are.
For more than 30 years, CAP, founded as the Native Council of Canada in 1971, has worked to serve the interests of Aboriginal Canadians living away from Indian Act reserves. CAP is the national office of a network of constituent member political associations throughout the country, and they, in turn, are made up of regional zones and local units in cities, towns and villages across this great country. Each constituent member organization of the congress is led by an elected chief and/or president, and each zone and local is comprised of executive officers elected by the people at the grassroots level.
Our makeup is democratic and representative and our reach is extensive, from coast to coast through hundreds of communities where programs and services are delivered to off-reserve Aboriginal people, or where services are not delivered to off-reserve Aboriginal people. The net effect is that the people who look to the congress and its constituent member associations, zones and locals include Metis living outside the newly defined Prairie homelands, many thousands of non-status Indians, and registered and treaty Indians living away from Indian Act reserves. Those people constitute, by far, the largest number of Aboriginal people in Canada.
Despite a history of being significantly under-resourced in comparison with some other national Aboriginal organizations, the congress and its predecessor have always promoted and maintained policies and program delivery that are status and residency blind. Our track record is living proof that we have always worked to provide services and support for Aboriginal peoples, regardless of what category they are or where they live— individual as well as collective.
Just two of the many examples of this include the rural and native housing program that was hugely successful in providing housing and residential rehabilitation for many thousands of Aboriginal peoples, and the employment and small business-generating Urban Aboriginal Job Fund. Both initiatives originated with the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples and the Native Council of Canada.
While on the subject of providing you with observable facts, it was the Native Council of Canada's president who negotiated directly with then Justice Minister Chrétien to ensure that the word ``Metis'' was included with ``Indian'' and ``Inuit'' in section35 of the Constitution Act listing Canada's Aboriginal peoples. I am proud to report that we are now in the process of implementing a national Aboriginal workplace strategy in partnership with governments, the private sector and organized labour that holds great promise for ensuring strong and lasting participation by Aboriginal people in the Canadian economy.
The initiative will develop a national program that is both status and residency blind. Its focus is to ensure that Aboriginal people are well prepared to compete at all levels in the workplace, from entry level to senior management, and equally that the workplace is well prepared to accommodate the skills and talents of educated, trained and motivated young Aboriginal people. It is a win-win situation for all partners, and a program of great promise for current and future generations of Aboriginal people.
There is also the CAP National Diabetes Initiative, which is a partner program with governments, Aboriginal and private sector involvement. It focuses on the prevention and maintenance of this pandemic disease within our Aboriginal communities.
Once again, both programs require no test of status or residency and that, according to our philosophy, is the way it should be.
My point is that, in the face of a great deal of adversity — financial, legal and social— the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples and its constituent member organizations throughout the countryare continuing to take measures to serve the interests of all off-reserve Aboriginal people as best we can. Among our abiding concerns in this respect are the special problems facing Aboriginal children and youth.
Ms Jamie Gallant, Youth and Labour Market Intern, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples: Our Aboriginal youth want what all other young persons in Canadawant — hope. It is said that the first responsibility of our leadership is to keep hope alive. Without hope, there can be no future worth having, and we want a future worth having. That means we want to participate in, contribute to and benefit from all of those areas of life that matter to us: getting a good education; having a career that is both satisfying and worthwhile; being healthy in mind and body; remaining connected to our cultures and traditions; our spirituality; passing on the things that we have learned; helping others; and making this land and world of ours a better place in which to live, for all people.
However, there is an important catch. Aboriginal youth want to be included in the debate, not as subjects but as full and equal partnered participants. We do not want you to tell us what we should do. We want you and our own leaders to work with us to find out what exactly we can do, how far we can go, how high we can reach, what walls we can knock down, what barriers we can stretch, what vistas we can surpass, and what wonders we can accomplish. That is why we are here today.
We know we cannot solve all the problems or seize the incredible opportunities out there by ourselves, and we also know that you cannot deliver those to us. However, the simple fact is that you need us and we need you. It is not as if we have nothing to work with, because we have the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy. It has been a work in progress since the federal, provincial, territorial ministers and national Aboriginal leaders conference in Quebec City in 1998. It has been a reality, although a paper tiger thus far, for more than one year now, and time is sliding by. We have another FPTA meeting coming up in Iqaluit in June. Where will we be then? Is it to be one step forward or two steps back?
Ethel Blondin-Andrew, Secretary of State for Children and Youth, has a big job to do and not enough money or support for it. Let's spend time thinking about how we can help advance the agenda, speed up the process, work on the solutions and prepare for the opportunities. This is necessary because young people are famous for being impatient and the pace we are moving at today is totally unacceptable to us.
Mr. Dorey: We have had youth representation on our national board of directors since the Native Council of Canada was founded in 1971 — more than 30 years ago.
It has been a long and tedious task for Aboriginal youth to become engaged in the debate, both within Aboriginal organizations and especially within the larger Canadian mosaic. The reasons are many: apathy, lethargy, ignorance, the father-knows-best syndrome, a serious lack of resources and political inertia. However, the excuses are few. Who is to blame? Does it really matter? Is there time to dwell on that?
Chief Piaikan of the Kiaipo people of the Amazonian region of Brazil said: ``Civilized people talk a lot and think they have done something. We Kiaipo just act.''
Ms Gallant: Now what? A poll last year by the Institute for Research on Public Policy suggested that politics is of little interest to young people. If we are to succeed in this, we must change that. Politics is the art of the possible and, like our Aboriginal leaders have done, we must learn how to participate in public life as an agent of change for Aboriginal youth in Canada, now.
Once again, we want to participate so that we can contribute and benefit. That is the CAP motto and our commitment. That is why CAP has not only an Aboriginal youth member on its national board of directors, but a national youth coordinator on staff. That was a promise made by National Chief Dorey at the National Aboriginal Youth Conference held in Edmonton last October. It is a promise he acted on immediately. Now our youth team is working on advancing the national Aboriginal youth strategy and on a special youth mentoring program that has just been established with the congress. In other words, we are not just talking the talk, we are walking the walk.
We are acting as best we can under difficult circumstances. The Congress of Aboriginal Peoples has been working on a number of youth initiatives as they relate to the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy. Some of our major policy and program thrusts, particularly in the area of employment creation and training, tie into the policy directions suggested in NAYS: economic, political, cultural, social, and education and skills development. All are targeted primarily, although not exclusively, to Aboriginal youth. Key among them is our National Aboriginal Workforce Strategy, which combines education, training, mentoring, skills development and long-term job creation in the workforce for young Aboriginal people at all levels within the workforce, from entry level to senior management positions.
We are also working hard to keep our youth connected to each other and to critical stakeholders in this country. Through this communication, we are committed to helping our young people gain a voice and to provide them with a sense of involvement and belonging in the matters that affect them and their future.
We are currently working to get CAP's youth council together on a more regular basis. Our goal is to seek resources so we can meet on a range of issues and practical solutions that might be employed to overcome the barriers we face in our quest to become meaningful participants and equal partners in Canadian society.
There are small but important steps to our continuing commitment to keeping hope alive among young Aboriginal people. We need to take the active approach to the broader stage.
We have some suggestions as to how you can walk the walk. As a first step, let us make the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy a bureaucracy-free zone. Let us open our minds to new thinking that does not dwell on why we cannot do something but focuses on how we can accomplish anything. Let us not allow barriers, perceived or real, to be the end of the debate but the beginning of the conversation, the first step to the solutions. It requires imagination, hard work and courage amongst a great many people and institutions, political and otherwise. How about having a ``Call a Colleague'' program to get people re-energized and engaged in the youth strategy? You have all kinds of friends in influential places, here in Ottawa, in provincial and territorial public life, the private sector, unions, boards of directors, on school boards, in colleges, and universities— everywhere. You know the movers and shakers, so help us to move them and shake them. Just imagine what one phone call a day could do. Tell them what we want, why and when we need it. We will help you with the sales pitch.
Finally, let us think of new and innovative ways to help young people connect with each other, with you and with everyone else who can make this thing a reality.
We must get together more often, not just at a conference every year or two. We— and I emphasize the word ``we''— can energize the impetus for change, monitor our progress and suggest alternatives. One example is a youth connection program where we can work around school schedules, the fact that we have no money— that is us, not you— and that we are spread throughout the country and are often hard to reach, but not as hard as you. Let's not fool around with the youth strategy.
Mr. Dorey: It means taking chances— but so what? The stakes are too high not to take those chances. We are messing around with the future of young Aboriginal people, and we are running out of time, because if we do not succeed, what are the chances of success for the next generation? Why not use every tool at your disposal, every power you have, every bit of energy you can muster to help us keep hope alive? It could be a short or a long walk. It all depends on how big our first step is and what pace we set. Let us start now.
The Chairman: Thank you for an interesting and very informative presentation.
Senator Pearson: Ms Gallant, I am interested particularly in the Student Connection Program. I met with people from Industry Canada who are working on the SchoolNet program. I understand that there is a youth advisory board in that program. In their efforts to connect with various people and schools in Canada, they had problems reaching some Aboriginal communities. Do you know anything about that? SchoolNet provides opportunities for students to hook into the Internet, which is a way of being connected.
Ms Gallant: I am not familiar with SchoolNet. The Student Connection Program is probably similar to that in that it is a program whereby all Aboriginal youth from across Canada can connect with each other to share ideas.
Senator Pearson: Do you think most youth, unlike me, are competent on the Internet?
Ms Gallant: I believe so.
Senator Pearson: It is something we should explore further. I believe that Industry Canada will fund and make Internet connections available in other programs such as the Community Access Program, CAP. I do not know how many Aboriginal centres already have access to the Internet, but it is certainly something we should promote. We will try to make sure you have the infrastructure necessary for kids to connect.
Do you know much about this subject, Chief Dorey?
Mr. Dorey: I think your comments are particularly applicable to the smaller communities in the more remote areas.
Senator Pearson: Industry Canada's commitment to connect Canadians is supposed to apply to urban and rural settings, and it is something we should encourage. Connection creates extremely important opportunities for young people. They can connect with others across the country, find what they have in common and explore new avenues.
The Chairman: My big concern relates to the fact that gangs are becoming more prevalent, especially in the West. Our youth seem to be going through an identity crisis. What is CAP doing to establish a greater awareness of who we are as Aboriginal people in this country? The gangs seem to create an identity for these people, and it is the wrong identity. Have you looked into the gang situation and the justice system in this country?
Mr. Dorey: Yes, very much so. This goes to the basic principles of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. We are in business of serving those people who leave their home communities and, to some degree, get lost in a no-man's-land or in the bigger world and suffer a sense of disconnection or loss of identity.
As a national organization, we obviously have difficulties with resources. That being the case, our main focus is to provide services to young people in the large urban centres who are becoming involved with gangs or who find themselves other serious situations. Many of our people are just street people. For example, I would refer you to the recent news report about prostitutes on the West Coast. Half of those young girls are Aboriginal. That is a real concern.
For our purposes, and as CAP has been doing, I believe, we need to get to the heart of the problem a not just address the symptoms. We must create more real opportunities for these people, so that they know we are there to help. We need initiatives that focus on people's health to ensure they live healthy lives and that give them opportunities for education and training. Education and good health solves many problems. However, housing in Aboriginal communities is now in a crisis situation. That is particularly so in urban sectors. The termination of the rural and native housing program some years ago there left a major void in addressing the needs of our Aboriginal community. Although housing for our brothers and sisters on reserve was maintained, statistics show that the majority of our young people are moving away from the reserve communities into urban centres and other places looking for employment opportunities.
Many barriers remain, even in the area of employment. Our workforce strategy is focused on removing those barriers, finding jobs for people, and hopefully solving the kinds of social or economic conditions that lead to the organizing of gangs. Our people at the community level have to work with local organizations and officials, including the mayors of the cities, the police organizations and so on. Everyone must work together. That is our focus.
The Chairman: Do you have the financial resources to accomplish any of this?
Mr. Dorey: Today we do not, but we optimistic. Recent initiatives were announced in the Speech from the Throne. The Prime Minister, in creating the ministerial reference group, is giving us some indication that a serious attempt is being made to address some of these problems. I had the good fortune to be present at one of the meetings of that ministerial reference group.
It has been realized that as part of that process we must start looking outside the box, that is, we must consider doing things differently. There is always a need for greater resources when you are trying to develop new strategies for resolving these age-old problems. Too often we are told that no new resources are available. I am not suggesting that just finding more money to throw at the problem is the solution, but I do believe that we must find adequate resources in order to take a different approach to establishing a more focussed strategy to deal with these problems. The congress is dealing with these issues one by one, for example, job training and diabetes. We will continue with other initiatives.
Senator Hubley: Ms Gallant, I know that you grew up in my very small community of Kensington, Prince Edward Island, a community that is not always aware that young Aboriginal people may be having problems within their society. What is your view of our educational system, and what do you think might be added to or taken away from it that would help young Aboriginal people to be successful within our system?
Ms Gallant: I definitely see the need for a cultural component to the educational system. That could be achieved with a cultural course. There should be a larger component of cultural education for Aboriginal students, because that is important. Coming from an urban community where there are few Aboriginal people, it is difficult to connect with your cultural identity.
I also believe that cultural sensitivity training should be given to teachers because sometimes teachers are not as aware as they should be of the various situations of Aboriginal young people.
Senator Hubley: Do you believe that there should be incentives to encourage young Aboriginals to move on to higher education, either through universities or in community colleges? Is there a way of encouraging young people to get a higher education?
Ms Gallant: As I said, all Aboriginal youth want is hope. We want the same opportunities as every other young person across the country. If there is a way that we can encourage our young people to become involved in furthering their education, then we must find it, because it is definitely needed.
Senator Hubley: Do the statistics show that Aboriginal young people do not have the same opportunities, or that they move on to college at a different rate from non-Aboriginal young people?
Mr. Dorey: Senator, perhaps I could respond to that question. As I said at the outset of my presentation, I do not want to get into the details on statistics. I think everyone knows them. The post-secondary education funding available for status Indians, although not limited to the reserves, is a fundamental issue for us. We need to take another look at how we can assist more young Aboriginal people with their education. There is a cap on that funding, and we know that, where it is administered by the bands, education is their priority, for the most part.
However, to go back to the statistics, it does not matter if one is a status Indian on a reserve, a First Nation person, or whether one is a Metis off-reserve and living in the urban centres, the statistics are constant for Aboriginal people. In other words, the social-economic problems for Aboriginal people are constant whether one is status, non-status, Metis or whatever.
The statistics also indicate that the real problem is that the income of those families is at the lowest level. The problem for a young Aboriginal person, whether status, non-status, Metis, off-reserve, is trying to get the resources together to go to school. It is almost hopeless for our people because there are so many barriers and discriminatory aspects of our system that are preventing people from getting jobs and giving them the opportunity to pass the benefits of those jobs on to their children. We must start focusing on that problem.
We, as a national organization, with Ms Gallant's involvement, are trying to develop mentoring programs for our young people. Role modelling is an important aspect of that. The National Aboriginal Achievement Awards, which will be televised tonight, is a prime example of what can be achieved. We need to do more of that. The heart of the problem is at the community level where people cannot find jobs. Therefore, they cannot finance the education of their children and they are losing hope.
People do not see a bright future because there are so many barriers to employment. They wonder what is the point of getting an education when they will not get a job. We must focus on these kinds of issues.
Senator Christensen: As you have pointed out, and as those of us who have been involved with this over the years know, this is a very complicated and difficult problem. Funding is certainly part of it, but there are all sorts of other issues.
You have talked about your work strategies with regard to diabetes and school scheduling. We are looking at two different groups of children, one that has a certain amount of motivation and another that has less. What resources do you put into preventive programs and health education on issues such as FAS and FAE? That group needs a lot of attention. Do you have any programs in those areas?
Mr. Dorey: We do not, and that is part of the difficulty. It is a long-standing problem that there has not been enough focus on these kinds of issues. The resources are not being channelled through either our organization or other organizations to focus on that.
As a national organization, the Congress of Aboriginal People is constantly trying to promote change in policy and programs that will be more focused on those kinds of initiatives.
We often get caught up in a jurisdictional problem. There is a federal fiduciary responsibility and a provincial responsibility. The provinces say that the federal government has responsibility for Aboriginal or Indian people. The federal government says that it has responsibility for Indians on reserve, but that the responsibility for off-reserve people is a provincial one. Those are the kinds of inherent difficulties with which we constantly struggle in trying to do what you are suggesting.
Senator Christensen: There are two groups, that which must be motivated and that which is motivated, and we must provide hope for the group that is motivated. You need a whole different set of programs for that group.
You have said that urban housing is a major problem. Is rural housing not also a major problem? Is it not one reason people are leaving the rural areas and coming to the urban areas? There are entire family groups living in inadequate housing in some rural areas.
Mr. Dorey: Yes, it is a problem right across the board. My point is that our people are moving to urban centres looking for job opportunities but they are not finding them. They are then in the position of not being able to provide themselves with adequate housing.
Senator Christensen: Where do you get the funding for your programs?
Mr. Dorey: We get our core funding from Heritage Canada, as do the other organizations. We also receive funding from Human Resources Development, but there is great disparity between what we get and what other organizations get. Unfortunately, not all Aboriginal people or organizations representing Aboriginal people are treated the same.
We do get funding from various departments, but most of it is project specific. We have to develop projects or initiatives. For example, we managed to get some resources to start focusing on awareness of the epidemic problem of diabetes in the Aboriginal community.
Senator Christensen: Do you get any provincial funding?
Mr. Dorey: Again, it is rather haphazard. Some of our provincial affiliates get some provincial assistance and some do not. The amount of provincial or territorial assistance that is available depends upon the province or region in which you are located.
Senator Christensen: Is there any corporate sponsorship?
Mr. Dorey: It is very limited, but there is some. The corporate world makes contributions for educational programs through the Aboriginal Achievement Awards program.
Senator Christensen: That is an area from which more funding could come. The largest youth population in Canada is the Aboriginal youth and those young people will be available to the workforce.
Mr. Dorey: That is one of our focuses in our workplace strategy. We intend to seek the involvement and participation of the private sector in this kind of strategy.
Senator Christensen: If you could choose two or three specific areas that need immediate attention and should be part of our recommendations, what would they be?
Mr. Dorey: The first would be, as the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples recommended, that we take a hard look at the departmental structure. The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development was set up 140 years ago under the Indian Act. Due to the fast-growing off-reserve Aboriginal population and the existing social and economic issues, the royal commission recommended that we look at restructuring that department and establishing a new department of Aboriginal affairs. There must be a broader focus on resolving these problems.
The next area is the housing situation. There is a serious and escalating problem of a lack of housing for Aboriginal people. It is time to look again at the old rural native housing program. If it is not time to revive that, we must look at an alternative that provides a similar service. That program worked well for a long time. Our people were involved in the delivery of it and it provided housing to Aboriginal people, regardless of whether they lived on-reserve or off- reserve, except in large urban centres. There must be a focus on that.
Another issue is job training and resources. The Congress of Aboriginal Peoples was left out of the loop when the national framework agreements were established. Unfortunately, the approach to the issue of providing human resources to the Aboriginal people was to go with the constitutional definitions of Aboriginal peoples— Indian, Inuit and Metis. The framework agreements went to the Assembly of First Nations, the Metis National Council and the Inuit Tapirisat. We were left out.
There is no reference in any legislation or in the Constitution to organizations. Nowhere does it say that the Aboriginal people are the AFN, the MNC and the ITK. We must take another look at that. This organization clearly represents a very large, if not the largest, sector of the Aboriginal population. Yet we seem to be left with the crumbs on the table.
It is time to study these broader issues. If we do not look at those kinds of things, we will never be able to focus on how to collectively solve the problems.
With regard to diabetes, $35million was set aside for an Aboriginal diabetes strategy. Yet 90 per cent of that funding goes to Aboriginal people on-reserve or the Inuit, and the rest of us are left with little.
We must take a new look at how we do things and solve these problems.
Senator Léger: I was pleased to hear your comment about hope being important because, when I think of the work that is done by us, the bureaucrats, I find it very discouraging. You bring us hope this morning.
Ms Gallant, you mentioned a bureaucracy-free zone. Are we making progress? Is there less bureaucracy now or is it the same as it has always been?
Ms Gallant: Aboriginal youth want to be able to work together. We do not want organizational titles to come between us. When we get together in groups, we put our organizations and our titles aside and we meet as a group of Aboriginal youth. That is how we want to work together.
Senator Léger: You have achieved that, but have we been able to do that? Perhaps that is our problem and something we should solve.
Ms Gallant: I am not 100 per cent certain that you do.
Senator Léger: Chief Dorey, you said that a new ministerial group has been formed. Is that another bureaucratic division?
Mr. Dorey: No, because that involves people at the most senior levels. We meet with the ministers. There are 12 ministers in that group.
Senator Léger: That should lighten the burden, then, and not weigh it down.
Mr. Dorey: This new group has only had one meeting. We are now preparing for our second meeting, but I do believe we focusing on the issues. Again, it will boil down to determining, somewhere down the road, whether or not they are on the right track and whether or not they will be able to adequately address these kinds of issues. It is a little premature at this point in time. It is a good sign, however, that we are at the minister's level now.
Senator Léger: Although I have been somewhat harsh on the bureaucratic level, I do believe that some progress has been made in the sense that we recognize that we want to change. However, how we do that is another question.
Is education the responsibility of the bands? Is it a provincial or is it a federal responsibility?
Mr. Dorey: Post-secondary education assistance for registered Indians is available to all registered Indians. The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development still provides the resources in some cases, but a lot of that has already been turned over to the bands or to the collective organizations of bands. For example, in the east the Atlantic Policy Congress has that responsibility and they now receive the resources. The funding block, whatever amount it is, goes to them and they then distribute it to the various bands or individuals.
The problem is that five or 10 years ago there was enough money in that envelope to provide assistance for our kids to go to university, whoever was seeking it. However, the population growth has led to a cap on that funding and that is no longer the situation.
Some of our kids are waiting a year or two before they can actually access the resources in order to get into university or pay for post-secondary education. That is a real problem. A delay of a year or two in one's education can cause a young person to not go back to school and complete his or her education.
Senator Léger: In asking that question, I had in mind that our school system is in need of change and that you, as leaders, might have some interesting ideas as to what those changes should be. I recognize that perhaps there might be an alternative to a student having to go to school five hours a day, five days a week. However, as you know, it is easier to talk about changes than it is to make them. If our Aboriginal leaders adopted another method, then we might follow up on any new ideas.
I should like to ask a question about housing which applies to everyone, not just Aboriginals. I will give you an example. Joe built his house and his friend said, ``Joe built his nest before finding the bird.'' Joe had built his house before he married. That no longer happens. Why do we no longer build houses in anticipation of what will happen? Nowadays we hear of housing crises in urban areas. Why is this happening?
Mr. Dorey: Hundreds of our people now have the skills to build houses. The problem is that they do not have the resources to do it. That is a result of the rural native housing program being terminated about six or seven years ago. Through that program, many of our people at the community level were involved in building their houses because that is the way the programs were set up. We need to go back to that. We need not go back to the same programs that were in place before, but we need something similar. Programs can be developed that instil some interest and encourage people to build their own houses. However, the resources must be in available to purchase the materials.
Senator Léger: I am strongly in favour of cultural expression. We should be proud of who we are, our identity, and our arts. That is valorization. We feel we are worth something. Aboriginal artists are way ahead and I hope that Aboriginal art continues to develop. I will certainly watch the television show this evening.
Senator Pearson: Ms Gallant, I am interested in the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy. As a great fan of internship programs, I note that you are an intern with the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. Is that a program that is developing?
Ms Gallant: I started off as their national youth representative. I was elected to the position. I just recently took over as their labour market intern, which is a mentorship program that the congress initiated through the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy and the youth conference that was held in Edmonton.
Senator Pearson: Would you suggest that one of our recommendations should be that we promote more internship programs?
Mr. Dorey: Yes, I would strongly recommend that.
To go back to the youth forum Ms Gallant mentioned, it was the first time a national Aboriginal youth forum of that nature was held. It involved all the organizations and all the youth— that is, status Indians, both those on reserve and off reserve, Metis and non-status Indians. The main recommendation that came out of the youth forum was that youth should be more involved in what is being done for their benefit. Time has long passed when a paternalistic approach is appropriate. Youth want to tell us what is good for them and what should be done. They want to be more involved and to participate.
The congress has no identifiable resources for an internship program. I just said that we would do this. I recognized that we should respond to this. Ms Gallant was given a position on staff as the coordinator of our youth strategy. I am now in a situation where I must find the resources for this position, and I will.
Senator Pearson: If we were to recommend more resources, and that recommendation was adopted, your organization would be able to house more than just Ms Gallant, you could house a number of young people.
Mr. Dorey: That is correct.
Senator Pearson: That is something concrete to think about.
My second question is more delicate.
Ms Gallant, in regard to the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy, you look at economic, political, cultural, social and educational skills development as policy directions. However, among young people, and from some of the experience I have had with people like Ms Kingsley, there are issues around sexuality and what is happening with some of your contemporaries.
Is there any recommendation that might be useful for us to make around this area of education on sexuality or development of programs to assist young people who have been either abused or taken into the sex trade or whatever?
In considering the problems of young people, we need to look at the various dimensions of the problems. You have a national diabetes strategy, but could there be other strategies? I am not sure what they would be called. Do you see sexuality as being an issue relevant to your contemporaries?
Ms Gallant: I do see that as an issue, especially in the larger urban settings. We must realize that sexuality and sexual exploitation are issues not many young people are comfortable with.
There must be not only healing, but also prevention. There must be an emphasis on healing when it comes to sexual exploitation, sexuality and awareness. There is a definite need for that.
Senator Pearson: I want to get that on the record. That is an important issue when we make recommendations regarding resources.
[Translation]
Senator Gill: I think your presentation covered most of the issues concerning Aboriginal people.
Mr. Dorey, I would like to come back to one of your answers about the things we should make recommendations on. You mentioned the Department of Indian Affairs. That act has been in force for 126 years or so. And it has been amended very little since then. Under Bill C-31, you became an Indian in 1985 or 1986. I do not know if that act has changed very much the way Indians are treated, status or non-status. In fact, I wonder if it has really made a difference.
You talked about a short-term goal concerning housing. Those are urgent issues that we have to deal with immediately. Governments, politicians and bureaucrats are not very good at questioning and changing politics that have been in place for years. With the best of intentions, the government usually tries to improve the existing programs. You said the fundamental structure has to be changed if we want to get somewhere. Let us take for example the recognition of the institutions representing Aboriginal people across the country. There is nothing in the Indian Act about recognizing those institutions of Aboriginal people — status Indians, Metis or others. We have entered a corridor about 130 years ago and it is very difficult to get out of it. We keep adding insult to injury. Can you explain to us what changes or improvements would be necessary, basically, short term or long term, to correct the system and allow Aboriginal people to really become fully participating citizens?
[English]
Mr. Dorey: I do not have the crystal ball in front of me that will show me how things need to be done in a perfect world.
Senator Gill hit the nail right on the head. Part of our real problem relates to the system as it is structured. SenatorLéger pointed to problems in the bureaucracy. That is where many of our problems lie.
We must also take a closer look at the demographics, as I outlined in my presentation. The demographics show a big shift in the Aboriginal community. As the fastest growing representative aspect of the population, our people are shifting from the reserves to the urban centres in search of employment opportunities.
The responsibility structure is old and outdated. Here I am speaking about the Indian Act. I believe that, unless the structure is changed at the base, a civil servant system will continue where they will make minor changes or introduce a new program here or there.
However, if we make the fundamental change that the royal commission proposed, that is restructuring the Department of Indian Affairs into two new departments, then you force change in all aspects. There must be a total assessment and review of all services and programs that exist and a determination of how they fit into the new structure. That is where we will bring about change.
Somewhere down the road there must be a greater force or condition placed on the provincial governments in respect of the federal government's transfer payments. There must be much greater accountability in terms of delivery of services and programs to Aboriginal people off-reserve. It is not good enough to say, for example, that we as the federal government will transfer housing responsibility to the provincial governments and say, ``Do as you may. We will look after Indians on-reserve, we just hope that you look after the Indians off-reserve.'' That does not happen.
Currently, I have a situation in my constituent organization in Nova Scotia which has taken over the rural native housing program that was left after the termination of the RNH program. Over 2000 housing units housed, predominantly, Aboriginal people and needed to be managed. Our provincial organization, the Native Council of Nova Scotia, had a management agreement with CMHC to manage those houses. It was a fee for service. The organization, under that program, employed 14 people. As soon as the province got their hands on it, they were given notice, and14 people will be out of a job in the next two weeks. They have been told by the provincial government, ``We can do the job better and cheaper.'' What is the problem here?
They, as a provincial government, are involved with all the other provincial governments at the federal-provincial- ministerial-Aboriginal level and saying that they must do more to create better jobs and opportunities for Aboriginal people. We have a provincial government that is allowed to pull the rug out from under these people's feet as far as employment and providing housing to Aboriginal people is concerned.
As long as the Aboriginal people are managing the program, they will ensure that, when a house becomes vacant for whatever reason, Aboriginal people get it. I am not saying anything against poor non-Aboriginal people, but we need to maintain focus. That is part of the problem.
The jurisdiction issue is a trade-off. Something was under the federal government's control and focus, and there were initiatives for Aboriginal people, but the responsibility was shifted to the provincial government. I am trying my best to work with these provincial governments. I just recently travelled across the country to meet with most if not all the ministers of Aboriginal Affairs. We talked about our national workplace strategy and I showed them that I want to work with the people at the provincial level. We all must come together and work together. You cannot take the dollars or the responsibility from the federal government and not do anything for the Aboriginal people and say they are just like everybody else. That does not work.
Those are some of the fundamental problems we have. We should look at structural change and specifically at the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. I say this with tongue in cheek because I am currently involved in negotiations on governance with respect to the Indian Act right. The Assembly of First Nations is not. While I am involved as a representative of my organization in trying to improve the Indian Act as it is, I really want the Indian Act to be replaced. We know we cannot just wipe it off in an instant. The long-term strategy and plan must be to get rid of it and replace it with something else. The royal commission put a lot of effort and work into that process or that idea. We must get back to it. That is the only way we will see real change take place within policy and program development. If that structural change is made, if Parliament makes that kind of change, then the bureaucracy must incorporate it and accommodate it. That is when we will start looking at all various kinds of programs and issues and do something substantial. Until then, as the old saying goes, we are nibbling at the edges. That is all we can do. We are caught between a rock and a hard place. We are trying to make substantial changes, and we are tinkering.
Senator Gill: Why do you think the AFN is not at this consultation with the minister? Why is your organization not represented? Be frank with me.
Mr. Dorey: You and I are good friends. I will tell you: I really do not know. I have some notions, I guess, as to why. I was an observer to the AFN assembly in Halifax when this issue was voted on. There was a clear plan at the executive level of the AFN to participate, but the grassroots chiefs rejected it. I do not understand the rationale. On the one hand, I do realize they have some fears about being part of something they do not like. In the end, it can be said, even if you do not like what comes out at the end of this process, at least you participated, so they are inclined not to participate.
On the other hand, I am there because I believe that, if you are given the opportunity to participate and to make changes and you do not, then you cannot complain about it after. It just does not make sense to me. I am of the view that we need to be part of the process and try to make the change we believe needs to be made. If in the end that does not happen, then I can criticize. I can say, ``We gave it our best effort, but you were not listening, Mr.Government or Mr.Minister. I do not like this, and I cannot accept it.''
I know there is not a unified position on this issue within the AFN. I am aware of that. It is democracy, I guess, within.
The Chairman: I have a few of questions for you on a second round.
There is post-secondary education for First Nations, but there is nothing for the Metis or the non-status Indians. I understand that many young people want to go back to school but there is no funding for them. They must take student loans. I am referring to Aboriginal people, First Nations living off-reserve. Their bands will not fund them. They only fund post-secondary education. There is a big gap there. This is what I am finding. I would like your comment on that.
We did a bit of a survey on our own before we even started this action plan for change. I asked all our committee members here to look at the community agencies in their communities and see what is going on there. Everyone said, without a doubt, that there was no funding. Many of them are providing these wonderful services with very little or no funding.
Teen pregnancy is still a major issue, not only as it touches the lives of young women but also how teenage fathers deal with this. What is your comment on that issue? Currently, in my constituency, four young mothers want to get pregnant again not because it is an ``in'' thing, but because it is a survival tactic. What is your view on that?
As I understand it, one particular community agency in Edmonton has done wonderful work on FAS, FAE as that relates to teen mothers. Their funding has been cut. That is a provincial jurisdiction. It is tragic. What difficulties have you run into in dealing with your provincial counterparts in provincial jurisdictions?
As well, I hear very little about CAP in Alberta. I would like to know the difficulties you, as a national leader, are having in bringing your provincial organizations up to par on working together in the communities.
Since housing has been transferred to the provinces, I agree with your comments. The agreement that the Aboriginal housing people had before was not just a property management program; it was a counselling program. When we got people into the housing, they were counselled. They were encouraged to go to school. They were encouraged to get jobs. Now that the responsibility for housing has been transferred to the provinces, only property management is dealt with. They do not care what our tenants are facing as far as discrimination is concerned. I would like your comments on the differences between the property management programs and what we had.
As for national housing organizations, there is a very good one in B.C., the president of which is Linda Ross. They are struggling and fighting to get that. What is your view on a national Aboriginal housing organization, and how could that work to help the provinces?
There is also the difficulty that you mentioned regarding resources. You are a political organization. Are you getting enough money to run your political organizations without having to tap into your program dollars, or are you forced to use those dollars to assist your political organizations?
Mr. Dorey: You covered almost everything that I could possibly talk about.
Regarding your question on the Metis issue and resources, I would say that that is a long-standing issue. In my brief presentation, I tried to avoid getting into these kinds of specifics and details you are now raising.
The Chairman: It is not only a Metis education issue, it applies to the off-reserve Indians as well.
Mr. Dorey: I am aware of that. The real problem goes back to the structures of the institutions and systems we have in place now to provide these services to Aboriginal people. It was 20 years ago that Aboriginal people were first recognized in the Constitution. If you compare those 20 years to the 120 or 140 years that the Indian Act has been in place, you will see that very little has changed in that act up to this date. Yet, there is a broader acknowledgement and recognition that the Aboriginal peoples in this country are far greater and much more spread out across the country than the Indian Act would lead people to believe.
The demographics have changed, but the institutional organizations and structures that we have in place have not. It is time to change those. If we focus on replacing the Department of Indian Affairs with a department of Aboriginal affairs, that gives a broader scope to structuring the department and its programs and services. That is how we will get at these other issues such as housing, youth concerns or what have you.
As part of that, there must be another look at the whole jurisdictional question. If you looking at a broader, more encompassing federal department of Aboriginal affairs, then the whole issue of resources going to the provinces but not reaching the Aboriginal population must be considered.
As part of the process of self-government, it could very well be there will be a refocus on these issues and initiatives. For the last 10 or 15 years as off-reserve Aboriginal people, we have been trying to design or structure this system of government for the off-reserve population, which is scattered across the country. We have not succeeded in doing that. The alternative is to start building the institutions that provide the services to the people.
In some cases, once you start doing that, it will mean setting up new institutions. For example, it could mean setting up separate schools or it may mean a greater degree of integration into the existing system, with more Aboriginal people on the existing school boards. Then we would be more in tune with what the schools are dealing with in terms of their budgets, the people that are there, and the Aboriginal people.
I have been there. I received my status 16 years ago, and got on to the band council as an elected representative of the band just shortly after getting that status. I know what the bands are dealing with. I have seen situations where status Indians were attending schools off-reserve. Where there were 12 students that had status, the Department of Indian Affairs was paying extra money to ensure they received the proper education and cultural and support. However, in the case where there were only two status Indians and 12, 14 or 20 non-status or Metis, the funding was cut because there were not enough status Indians. The important aspects of education and culture were suddenly lost and gone. There was no support for those Aboriginal people. That is what we must get back to.
I am aware of the issue in Alberta to do with CAP representation. That sometimes becomes a problem here and there. As senators will know, Aboriginal politics work. The representation issue is not important to me, any more than it is important for Canadians in general. I am referring to what political stripe you are from or where on the social scale you live. This Prime Minister and this government represent and serve all the people.
We are in the business of providing services to Aboriginal people off-reserve, period. That is what our focus must be. I do not need to have a person signed up as a member to ensure they receive the services due to them. That is what it is all about.
The issue we have facing us is this fast-growing population of Aboriginal people. I go back to the royal commission's recommendation that we must make some changes soon or in the long-term we will have some serious problems. In that regard you mentioned the gang situation.
Politically, it is back to the same old problem for the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. We represent and speak for the majority of the Aboriginal population, yet we get the smallest core funding that is available. There is not enough core funding. With every program or project, however big or small, I must take a portion right off the top and apply it to administration in order for us to do business. There must be another look taken at the resources provided under the core-funding program to maintain the basic level of administration that is needed. It need not be at an exorbitant level, but it must be enough to justify the work that needs to be done.
We are trying to tackle many of these inherent issues at the same time. It will be problematic until there is a major shift at the bureaucracy and departmental levels. I made a presentation not too long ago to the standing committee of Parliament on Aboriginal affairs in which I said the same thing. We must start looking at the structure of the way thing have been done for Aboriginal people. We are far behind the times. It is time to catch up to the realities of today. If that means looking at restructuring the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, then so be it. Let us do it. It is nothing new. Over the years, other departments have been restructured, reorganized and renamed, so let us do it with this one.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. There are no other questions or comments, so if you have any closing comments, I would like to hear them.
Mr. Dorey: I do not, other than to say, again, that I sincerely appreciate this opportunity. It is being realized to a greater degree by parliamentarians, yourselves as senators, and even people in the general public and private sector that we must address this situation of the Aboriginal population.
One of difficulties we encounter in trying to bring about positive change to this large and growing Aboriginal population is doing it in a way that addresses the uninformed public. There is the perception that, when new or additional resources are identified and applied to the problems, it is good money being thrown after bad into the Aboriginal and Indian population or community. That is not what we want. We must show a greater degree of accountability, and demonstrate that we are making some real progress. More structural changes must take place, not only at the lowest program or project level. .
The Chairman: This has been informative. This action plan for change is far too late in coming. I hope we will make some progress.
Thank you very much. I appreciate both you and Ms Gallant appearing here.
Ms Gallant, good luck and God bless in all your work. You have a big challenge ahead of you. I know the difficulties you face.
The committee adjourned.