Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs
Issue 1 - Evidence - February 22, 2001
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 22, 2001
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs met this day at 9:00 a.m. for an organization meeting.
[Translation]
Ms Line Gravel, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable Senators, I see we have a quorum. As Clerk of the Committee, it is my duty to oversee the election of the Chair.
I am ready to entertain motions to this effect.
Senator Corbin: I move that the Honourable Senator Peter Stollery be elected Chair of this committee. Senator Stollery served as committee Chair in the last Parliament. I think he has earned the trust of all members of this committee and I am pleased to nominate him for this position.
[English]
Ms Gravel: Any there any other nominations?
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Corbin that the Honourable Senator Stollery be Chair of this committee. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms Gravel: Senator Stollery, I invite you to take the chair.
Senator Peter A. Stollery (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for your confidence. I will move quickly through our business today, as we have a meeting with Prime Minister Blair at 10 o'clock.
The election of the deputy chair is the second item of business. Would someone like to make a proposal?
Senator Bolduc: I move Senator Andreychuk.
The Chairman: Are there any other nominations?
Senator De Bané: What is the position?
The Chairman: The position is deputy chairman of the committee, Senator De Bané.
Hearing no other nominations, I declare it unanimous. Senator Andreychuk is the Deputy Chairman of the Committee.
The next item is the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
It is moved by Senator Corbin:
-
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee.
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: Honourable Senators, I move that Senator Corbin be selected to serve on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
[English]
The Chairman: Is that acceptable to the committee?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The steering committee will be made up of Senator Corbin, Senator Andreychuk and myself.
Senator Corbin: May I make a comment? I wish to thank the committee for their confidence in my person, but I had suggested at a previous meeting that we do away with this formula of designating other members of the steering committee following consultation. I think we are democrats. These things ought to be done in public. Regardless of the formulas that appear in addendums somewhere from some rules or whatever, I think we ought to do these things out in the open so that everyone knows where they stand. Let us do away with this fuzzy way of doing business.
The Chairman: You have mentioned this at least once before. We certainly will follow your advice.
Senator Grafstein: I do not understand. Are you suggesting that members of the committee should decide who their chairman is and who the officers are?
Senator Bolduc: He is talking about the third one.
Senator Grafstein: I am asking Senator Corbin. Senator Corbin says he does not like the fuzzy way things are done.
Senator Corbin: I was referring to selecting the members of the steering committee.
Senator Grafstein: Are you suggesting that members of the steering committee should all be selected by a vote of the committee?
Senator Corbin: Yes. That is what I mean by doing away with the fuzziness of these things.
Senator Grafstein: I do not disagree. I just did not quite understand whether Senator Corbin meant that as it relates to all the officers of the committee.
Senator Corbin: Yes. We are democrats.
Senator Grafstein: It is great to hear it.
The Chairman: If I can move on to item 4, the motion to print the committee's proceedings, it is moved by the Honourable Senator Grafstein:
-
That the Committee print its Proceedings; and
-
That the Chair be authorized to adjust this number to meet demand.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item 5 is the authorization to hold meetings, to print evidence when quorum is not present. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Bolduc:
-
That, pursuant to Rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a representative of the government and the opposition are present.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Thank you. Item 6 is the financial report. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Corbin:
-
That, pursuant to Rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Corbin: I thought that, technically, the last session does not exist any more. This is a new Parliament. Things done in the last session do not count.
The Chairman: That is an interesting observation. I will have to take some advice.
In the Rules of the Senate of Canada, with respect to the final reporting of expenses, it states:
-
A committee of the Senate shall, within thirty days of the final accounting of any special expenses incurred in connection with its work, report the same to the Senate in reasonable detail.
This is the follow-up. This is rule 104.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Corbin: There is no consistency in the practice of Parliament.
The Chairman: Senator Corbin, there is something in what you say, but that is what the rules tell us.
Item 7 deals with research staff. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Grafstein:
-
That the Committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;
-
That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills and estimates as are referred to it.
-
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
-
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item 8 deals with the authority to commit fund and certify accounts. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Corbin:
-
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred on the Chair or in the Chair's absence, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee; and
-
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred on the Chair, or the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item 9 deals with travel. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Grafstein --
Senator Grafstein: I do not want to move this motion. I want to speak to it.
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Bolduc:
-
That the Committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the Committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the Committee; and
-
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
-
-
(1) determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998, and
-
-
-
(2) consider any member of the committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the Committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the Committee.
-
Senator Grafstein: I just wanted to comment on what happened to me in the last several years where I was a member, executive officer of the OSCE, and I was then, as I still am, designated by the executive of the Organization of the Security and Cooperation in Europe to be a member of, in effect, a peacemaking mission for settling a frozen dispute within Moldavia. It was not something I sought. It was something I was given primarily because they wanted a Canadian representative. There are only two officers on the executive of the OSC, myself and Mr. Graham. On several occasions, I was asked to travel to Europe. I then discovered that I could not use my personal budget for such things. Consequently, I went to the Internal Economy Committee, where I was turned down. I then had some words with the chairman who indicated, "You should have come to me. Perhaps we could have obtained some money for you from this committee."
I am not seeking any answers today, but I want to put on the record that I do not think that is appropriate. The steering committee should come back to this committee at a future time with a provision for a scenario where a member of this committee, in officials senatorial duties and as a representative of Canada, is given a task of an international organization and is compelled or requested to travel. He or she should be able to make a request to the steering committee and the steering committee would then either seek to approve it or not. I say that because I do not think any senator should go cap in hand to ask a committee or the Internal Economy Committee to be given special treatment. I resented that. I wanted to make sure that there was a transparent and objective process for that process.
I am not asking for a discussion on that today. However, I hope that the steering committee will take that into account and, perhaps, come back with some proposal to deal with that type of scenario. We had a discussion concerning this yesterday at the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee and it was agreed in principle that, if a senator is required to travel with respect to the pursuance of the duties of that committee, he or she must go to the steering committee and make a request. The steering committee then either agrees or disagrees. Failing agreement, that senator can always go back to the full committee for adjudication; in other words, there is an appeal process.
I only table this as a problem. The chairman knows what I am talking about. I resented it deeply that I had to go cap in hand to any committee to fulfil my duties here. In the end result, on one of the trips I took money out of my own pocket and travelled because I felt compelled to maintain Canada's position at this committee. However, I am not prepared to do that in the future. It was almost a breech of a senator's privileges.
The Chairman: I would now like to welcome Senator Andreychuk, Deputy Chairman of the Committee.
Senator Andreychuk: We spoke to this in the other committee. My understanding of this section has nothing to do with our duties as a senator. We can travel on official business and we can do what we want as senators, as long as we follow the rules of the Senate. If the committee is seized of some legislation or study and it is deemed necessary to travel pursuant to that, then the chair, the deputy chair -- and, in the other committee, the steering committee -- would be entitled to look at whether this was legitimate travel within that category. It was a narrower definition of "official travel" pursuant to the study and necessities of the committee.
Senator Grafstein's point is a more broad generic point, which I do not think is called for here. I propose we pass this and deal with that as a separate item.
Senator Grafstein: I am not suggesting that I will disagree with this. I suggested that this matter might be taken up either by the steering committee or the chairman for this narrow reason.
I do not differentiate between responsibilities on this committee to facilitate the narrow objectives of the references to this committee and a senator seeking to broaden his or her interests on official duties with respect to an international organization. It is pretty hard to parse that. I realize that it is not the same as what we discussed before, but it is a generic thing. I leave it with the chairman. Perhaps it can be taken up with him and the Internal Economy Committee. I strongly believe that no senator should have to go cap in hand to receive funding when he cannot get access to his own budget. I am quite frugal with my budget, but I was not able to get access to my personal budget for these purposes.
Senator Corbin: As a member of this subcommittee of the OSCE, are you involved at the request of the government, or is this a matter totally aside from government executive activities?
Senator Grafstein: It is not a question of government. It is a request of the OSCE, of which Canada is a full voting member. It is as if the Secretary General of the United Nations asked a Canadian delegate or a Canadian official to travel on behalf of the United Nations. It is in that category.
Senator Corbin: Do the other delegates travel at the expense of their governments?
Senator Grafstein: They all have their own individual ways of dealing with it. It is not at the expense of the international organization.
The Chairman: I know what Senator Grafstein is talking about. Having been a member of the Internal Economy Committee many years ago, I remember the question of foreign travel. The steering committee can discuss this, but I am quite familiar with this situation. This is to give us a way out, if we need it. It is consistent with the Energy Committee. Other committees have this also. It is a standard practice.
Senator Grafstein: I do not object to this. However, I thought it was appropriate to raise the matter at this time.
Senator Corbin: As a member of the Internal Economy Committee, I was present when this type of proposal was made. I can speak historically now about many years ago. The idea behind this was that, from time to time, there were meetings that would be of interest to members of various committees, for example, symposia, and so on. This formula was developed to allow committees to pay the expenses of members of committees who wished to attend those conferences, symposia, and so on, including the meeting to which Senator Grafstein referred. At that time, however, they were limited to events within Canada. Surely, we are the poor parents of the world when we compare what we can do, say, to the Americans, the French, the Germans, the British.
When I occasionally travel across the world, whether in Africa or in the Pacific, I meet parliamentarians from all over the place who are on special missions on behalf of their Parliaments, with all expenses paid. Yet, here we are, fiddling around with pennies and dollars, when the rest of the world is gaining in education and informing themselves on what is happening in the global village. I think our approach is rather picayune. This sort of provision should be extended. It should be debated in a larger forum than just this committee because it has an impact on other committee activities as well.
I cannot believe that, in this day and age, when we provide for the functionaries of Parliament to travel and attend all sorts of things, the inmates of the institution, namely, the members of the House of Commons and senators themselves, are put in straitjackets all the time. I have had enough of that.
The Chairman: Can we move on? We must approve this item and then move on to item 10.
Next is travel and living expenses of witnesses. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk:
-
That, pursuant to Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the Committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Next is Item 11, electronic media coverage of public meetings. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Grafstein:
-
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
-
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Next is Item 12, time slot for regular meetings. Here, I want to explain something. The two time slots are our usual time slots, namely, Tuesdays at the adjournment of the Senate and Wednesdays from 3:15 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.
I have two points -- but first I welcome Senator Austin to his first meeting with this committee. Senator Austin is very knowledgeable and is chairman of the Rules Committee.
I noticed yesterday that the Senate sat at 2 o'clock on Wednesday and not at 1:30 as in the past. I presume that the motion has not been made to allow the Senate to adjourn at 3:15 p.m. Our Wednesday meeting may be subject to that change. I do not know the exact situation.
On Tuesdays, we meet after the adjournment of the Senate. As committee members know, we are expecting to have the water bill before us shortly. When our committee invites witnesses for our studies, we do not like them to be sitting around until 5 o'clock. If they come and we cancel, we still must pay them. Some of our witnesses are quite prominent people. Tuesdays will cause a bit of a problem.
As we get to the Russia-Ukraine project, we face this restriction. I just point that out to members. We will try to arrange witnesses around this difficulty. Perhaps we could agree that on Tuesdays we would meet when the Senate adjourns but not earlier than 4:30. Is that agreed?
Senator Corbin: From 4:30 until when?
The Chairman: Until 6 o'clock or whatever. Normally, we have an hour and a half slot. You and I know the old House of Commons rules, and I still use them, so our hour and a half would be 4:30 until 6 o'clock. That would be a normal Parliamentary time slot.
The committee will now go in camera to discuss future business.
The committee continued in camera.