Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 4 - Evidence, February 4, 2003
OTTAWA, Tuesday, February 4, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:05 a.m. to study issues affecting urban Aboriginal youth in Canada and, in particular, to examine access, provision and delivery of services; policy and jurisdictional issues; employment and education; access to economic opportunities; youth participation and empowerment; and other related matters.
Senator Thelma J. Chalifoux (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: We have a quorum. I welcome our witnesses to this study on urban Aboriginal issues especially focusing on youth.
Mr. Murray Hamilton, Program Coordinator, Gabriel Dumont Institute: On behalf of the Gabriel Dumont Institute, I should like to thank you for inviting us here today.
I work for the Gabriel Dumont Institute. I am a Metis, originally from Lebret, Saskatchewan, in the beautiful Qu'Appelle Valley. I am a program coordinator for Gabriel Dumont College, which is one program of the institute at the University of Saskatchewan. I have been there since approximately 1987. All my life, I have believed that education plays a key role in solving some of the problems and social dilemmas facing Metis and other Aboriginal peoples.
I was at the founding meeting of the Gabriel Dumont Institute in 1976, in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. That meeting took place because there was a profound concern about the attrition, drop-out or rejection rate in the kindergarten-to- grade-12 school system. Almost 30 years later, we have made some tremendous progress but, at the same time, there are still many problems that need to be resolved.
I have put together some briefing notes for the committee. Working at the University of Saskatchewan is exciting and stimulating for a variety of reasons and I am also able to meet a number of different people there. Not too long ago, I was at a special presentation by a professor of economics, Eric Howe. The information that I have given to you contains some telling statistics. I know what Winston Churchill said about statistics, but these are pretty close to the truth.
The numbers reflect what happens to Aboriginal people if they go or do not go to high school. If an Aboriginal male drops out of high school, he can look at an aggregate lifetime income of $344,000. For the female, it is $89,000, which is outrageous. If an Aboriginal male attends high school, that lifetime income jumps to $861,000. For the female, it increases to only $294,000. Obviously, there is quite a disparity between the genders.
It is obviously positive if Aboriginal people complete high school. If an Aboriginal male attends a non-university institution, such as trade school, his lifetime aggregate income will increase to $1.1 million. For the female, the figure is about one-half that, at $646,000. When an Aboriginal female receives a post-secondary education, she can then reach some kind of equity with the male.
Tomorrow, when I return to Saskatoon, I will make a presentation at a high school where the students are mostly Aboriginals. I will tell the kids that if they do not finish high school, it is like taking a lottery ticket and ripping it up.
One of the key issues that we must contend with in the urban centres, and we can talk about all kinds of things, is getting the kids to stay in high school. That will take some doing.
I was also fortunate just last week to attend a presentation by Dr. Cornelia Weiman, who is a Mohawk woman and Canada's first Aboriginal psychiatrist, at the University of Saskatchewan.
One of the problems that Aboriginal political organizations and service groups have had in the past 30 years is convincing government, federal or provincial, that they should have more control over what they do. Dr. Weiman has put together research to show that, where there are markers of cultural continuity, such as self-government, land claims, education, health, cultural facilities and police and fire services, the incidence of suicide in those communities decreases. The more control that people have over their destiny, the better off they will be. This reflects back on the kids who are not staying in school. If the kids look at the community and see that it has a kind of continuity, with people serving as role models, the rest is self-explanatory.
I have also included an excerpt from a Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission report, which recently concluded that some form of governance or partnership is more productive in some instances than some of the models that have been used to date. I talked to Senator Chalifoux about this previously.
We must embark on a whole new means of partnership governance between different levels of government and service organizations. That is an area that has been sadly overlooked as a cause of unproductive ventures.
I did not want to paint a totally negative picture. I want to end on a positive note and then I want to answer any questions that honourable senators have.
One of the programs that I am responsible for is Gabriel Dumont College, which assists Metis people with arts and science programming. We also have a program called SUNTEP, which is an acronym for the Saskatchewan Urban Native Teacher Program. It has been in existence since 1980. By the way, the institute is the only Metis-owned and operated education institution of its kind in Canada. We are quite proud of it.
In 1980, we started SUNTEP, which is basically a four-year program leading to a Bachelor of Education degree. One of the reasons that the SUNTEP program works so well is that we provide financial, academic and personal support to the students. One of my recommendations is that the same thing must take place within the K-12 system. In high schools and in other places, we need support systems that are similar to SUNTEP.
This blue book that I have given you is fairly recent. It is mostly an update on the SUNTEP program. I point it out because, as I mentioned, I want to show you the positive side. At the time this document was produced, we had 359 graduates; we now have over 600. In terms of financial implications, most of the people who enter that program would have probably remained at or near the poverty level, whether they were on welfare or low-income earners. We have a 98 per cent employment rate and over 82 per cent graduation rate. In fact, one of my graduates is here, sitting beside me, and I am very proud of her.
On page 17 of this document it shows that last year, our graduates paid in excess of $3 million federal tax and another $2 million in provincial tax. That is based on 359 people, and the number is almost double now. The money that went into creating these programs has been more than repaid. I know I am talking to the converted when I say that investment in education is a given. I understand it is not as easy as all that, but it is an investment for the future.
I have some concerns, however. The Metis people in particular, because we do not enjoy some of the benefits that our First Nations brothers and sisters receive, lag behind in the area of postgraduate studies. When you think about people who drop out of high school, you must put yourself in their position and look at what they see in their community. Out of the 600-and-some graduates of our program, less than 12 have gone on to postgraduate studies. If you do not have people going on to postgraduate studies, then you are not able to make the impact in research, in the universities and those other places where those people are needed.
I did not come here to tell stories out of school; however, until recently, the Aboriginal Human Resources Development Council provided funding to some Metis people for some post-secondary education under certain agreements. It has since changed its policy, and I think that is about to be changed again. That does not sit well with me, because that is the only means by which some Metis people can look at a university education. Most of our graduates are required to take out student loans and are graduating anywhere between $25,000 and $35,000 in debt. Many of our graduates are single mothers and, after they spend 10 or 12 years paying off their student loans, the cycle of poverty perpetuates itself.
The other thing we need to take a serious look at, which may sound a bit on the small ``c'' conservative side, is parental responsibility. The Metis community is willing to accept that our parents must do more. Through the process of poverty and colonization that has taken place through the past decades, I notice in our students a lack of parental skills and everyday life skills that are needed to survive. Most troubling is that the responsibility for ensuring that a child succeeds in school is not where it should be. This is a politically sensitive issue for non-Metis politicians. People are reluctant to touch that one. Even for Aboriginal politicians, it is a dicey issue. Therefore, it falls to some service organizations to play a major role in developing some strategies to ensure that parents become more active in the community. Far too much, at least in my experience in Saskatchewan, is being placed upon the teachers. We have teachers who have been out there for many years now. They tell us firsthand that they think some of these kids were hatched, because they never see the parents. That is one of the issues. If we can get young people to stay in high school; if we can work on postgraduate study; if we can find resources — and why HRDC would decide at this point that they are not interested in funding post-secondary education, I do not know — and if we can get the parents involved; those are the key issues.
Thank you.
The Chairman: You only have four issues there.
Mr. Hamilton: That is the way I see it.
The Chairman: Perhaps we can hear Ms. LaPierre's presentation next and then ask questions.
Thank you very much for coming here this morning.
Ms. Irene LaPierre, Principal, Piitoayis Family School: Thank you for the invitation. I am a Metis woman of Ojibway ancestry and I did receive my Bachelor of Education degree from the University of Saskatchewan, through the SUNTEP program, in 1996. I also achieved my master's degree in curriculum studies in 2002. I was one of the fortunate people; I worked for a school board that paid for my tuition. Then, they did not have a job for me, so I moved.
I began my education early on, in terms of being a native/home school liaison worker for the Saskatoon Catholic School Board. I worked there while working on my education degree. Being a late bloomer and starting education at a later age, I could not afford to incur a large student loan, so I worked and completed my classes. It took me longer to complete my degree, but I did not have such a burden when I was done. I worked with at-risk students as a native/ home school liaison. That brought some important experience to the classroom.
I also taught high school for four years in Prince Albert and was also able to design an in-school program of study for at-risk students.
I have been a high school teacher. I taught native studies and social studies in English. I then moved to the Calgary Board of Education as the Aboriginal specialist. I am now a principal of an elementary school. I have a varied background.
I will not bore you with the historical implications of the residential school. I am sure you are all aware of it. The historical experience continues. I do believe that the effect is lessened with every generation, which heals itself. Also, it is important to work with youth and their families to build on their resiliency and strength as Aboriginal people. Much research has been done on the issues facing Aboriginal youth, from the royal commission to the individual studies that are done in communities.
I will focus on Calgary because that is where I reside and work. In my research, I discovered that they had done a needs assessment back as far as 1984. Even back then, one of the issues facing Aboriginal youth was socio-economic. The issues included poverty, cultural conditions and a lack of knowledge and understanding of Aboriginal cultures within the schools.
There were negative portrayals in the curriculum and a lack of attention to their language, culture and traditions. Aboriginal youth certainly need a school environment that recognizes the contributions of Aboriginal people to the world.
There is also a native education policy review completed by Alberta Learning in 2000. I include a chart in my submission to you that shows that students at the grade-9 level are way below their non-native counterparts.
There were further consultations with the Aboriginal people of Calgary through the listening circle. That was quite a lengthy process in the study.
Once again, racism and discrimination by teachers and students and in the curriculum are of concern. The traditions and history were dismissed, misrepresented or inaccurately portrayed. It caused Aboriginal schoolchildren to be ashamed of their ancestry.
I can identify with this as a Metis person because I, too, felt the shame of growing up and not being part of the mainstream. With the name of LaPierre, I was able to become French Canadian in grade 7 and no longer be Metis, for a short period of time. It was not until I entered SUNTEP 20 years later that I had a sense of belonging and identity and a sense of being proud of who I was as a Metis person. In the first year, they immersed us in our Metis culture, and then I felt that it was important, that I was a contributing member of society.
The dropout rate for Calgary Aboriginal youth is 60 to 70 per cent, which translates into 40 per cent of Aboriginal people having less than a high school education. The non-Aboriginal population rate is 26 per cent. Six per cent of Aboriginal people have a university degree, as compared to 19 per cent of the non-Aboriginal population.
There are several recommendations from the Aboriginal community, including the hiring of elders and people of Aboriginal ancestry to teach history and traditions. Another recommendation was to revisit the curriculum and address racism through the education of staff, parents and students.
More Aboriginal people should be hired within the school system. There are many areas in the education system that need to include Aboriginal people, no matter what the role may be. There are no simple answers.
The educational systems need to deal with a culturally sensitive curriculum. Teachers lack the training and knowledge to work with Aboriginal students. It is important for the education systems, in particular, to be proactive in implementing the changes required.
The Calgary Board of Education has been a leader in implementing such change. In 1979, they opened the Plains Indians Cultural Survival School. It was the first of its kind in Canada and was a showcase for Aboriginal education. Many of the schools across Canada were modelled on that survival school concept. However, in the last few years, due to declining enrolment and many other avenues for adult students, PICSS closed in June 2002.
During the last year, I was able to consult with the Aboriginal community once more to see which direction Aboriginal education must take. With the research that was gathered already by other people, and with the consultation, we created a new vision for Aboriginal education within the board.
There are four themes prevalent in talking to the Aboriginal community. The first is that they wanted to have a strong academic component in the schools. They felt that quite often, as Aboriginal people, they were not get what they needed. They also wanted a balance of culture and language within the school. They wanted their children to access technology. One of the most important things that I found in working with the community is that they wanted a community school system, where they would feel welcome and part of the school.
Many of the people with whom I had consultations did not feel adequately prepared to help their youth in the school setting. They did not feel they had the skills to help them with their homework once they reached a certain grade. They were unable to provide them with skills and support.
The Aboriginal communities demand a quality learning experience for their children, with access to programs that are immersed in the culture, history and traditions of Aboriginal people. They wanted a holistic approach to education. They wanted their children to be included in all aspects of the spiritual, emotional, physical and mental needs. A holistic curriculum includes the parents, grandparents and families in the education plan. It also draws on the strength of the families.
The Piitoayis Family School opened in September 2002. The name of the school is a Blackfoot word that means Eagle Lodge. The elders in our community gave it to us. We offer a grade 1 to 6 program, and we provide transportation and lunch. We create equity and opportunity for access for our Aboriginal children.
We also have non-Aboriginal parents. We have 100 per cent Aboriginal students, but some of our children are in foster care. The foster parents put them in our school so that the children have an attachment to their culture. We transport students from all quadrants of the city.
We incorporated the recommendations of the families into our program of studies. In regards to the strong academic component, teachers were hired based on their strong curriculum and literacy backgrounds. The teachers, Aboriginal or not, had to display a willingness to learn about and participate in all aspects of Aboriginal culture and practices. They need to be respectful and mindful of including an Aboriginal perspective. All of our support staff are of Aboriginal decent.
The unfortunate reality at this time, even at a grade 1 to 6 level, is that our students are coming to us one or two grades below their learning level already. They are already sliding quickly behind. We have a strong Blackfoot and Cree population; therefore, we offer Blackfoot and Cree language to our students. The cultural program includes drumming, singing and dancing. We begin each morning with a flag song, followed by a smudge and prayer circle in each classroom. Our school environment reflects Aboriginal culture, from the people employed and the volunteers in the kitchen, to the posters on the walls and the representation of the letters of the alphabet.
Community celebrations also reflect the culture of the people. Instead of having a Christmas concert, we had a round dance. Our children sang their songs in Cree and Blackfoot to their parents.
We have quite good access to technology at our school. We have computers in each classroom, and the teachers integrate their use into their teaching.
Families are an important part of success for our youth. In the past, Aboriginal families were disconnected. They are being connected to the school and also to their culture. When Aboriginal people come to the city, they lose touch with the ceremonies and practices because access is limited. Therefore, we include families.
We were able to secure funding for the family component of our school. We will be offering culture camps on a monthly basis. We will focus on four areas — healthy choices, healthy families, families and culture and families and literacy.
We need to help our families gain the literacy skills so they can encourage their children. The families make a promise to us when they come to our school that they will support the academic component, they will read to their children and they will send them to school regularly.
We strive to build the capacity of our families within our school environment and empower them so they may work with their children in a good way. The cultural and spiritual leaders in our schools are very important, and because we represent more than nine nations in our school, we have a variety of elders coming because they all have gifts of their own and they share those gifts when they come. Just having them visible in the school is important. The elders support and guide us.
We have an active parent council that meets once a month and we have 20-plus parents coming out, with their 20- plus children, to the school meetings. The parents created our vision statement, which reflects the importance of education to them. The vision statement says that we need to create a respectful learning environment based on the balance of traditional cultural values and academic excellence. This holistic and meaningful approach will enhance pride and self-esteem, enabling our students to become successful, responsible lifelong learners.
This is what the parents want for their children, and we achieve this by striving to honour the teachings of our ancestors: Wisdom, love, respect, bravery, honesty, humility and truth. It seems that we have come full circle, from the families that were torn apart by the residential school system to the education system that now includes our families and our communities within our schools.
We are currently housed within a building that we share with another school, and so we ultimately hope to have a place that we can call our own. I also listed some best practices and suggestions in my submission.
Quite often, urban Aboriginal voices are not heard. Once people leave the reserve, they are not only disconnected from the community, but also from the funding, and Aboriginal people desire a place that they can call their own. The Piitoayis Family School is a program within a large urban education system. It has been successful only because we started from the grassroots level and we included the community. Also, the trend has been to provide programs for at- risk students. I use the term ``at-risk'' for lack of a better one — at-risk of not being successful. I, too, have been part of that through being a native home/school liaison, but we must recognize that we need to immerse our students early on in their language, culture and traditions, from preschool onwards, so they can gain a strong sense of identity and be able to be successful in other areas.
The change is required at all levels of education, from those who are teaching Aboriginal students in mainstream schools to isolated school settings. A native studies component as part of their education would be important to creating awareness. There is a strong need for quality Aboriginal teachers, not just on the reserve but also in the urban areas. We find that Treaty teachers go back to the reserves where they can work and be tax-free. There ought to be tax incentives to lure them back to the city, and also access to funding for off-reserve students and those who require additional education resources. Also, the urban education systems need to prepare themselves for Aboriginal students by creating and implementing an Aboriginal policy within their boards and cross-cultural training for everyone. Sometimes we forget that the secretary plays an important role, when people come into the school, in whether they are welcomed or not. If the families do not feel welcome, they will not want to go there very often.
The provincial curriculum needs to be reflective of Aboriginal people, in that studies of Aboriginal people should be included throughout the grades, instead of as it is in our curriculum, at just grades 4 and 5, and that is it until you get to high school. There should also be alternate programs of choice. We must keep in mind that we serve only a certain segment of the Aboriginal population. First, I always say that ours is not a program for all Aboriginal people. We serve people who want the segregated school setting for their children. What is important for me now is access to funding for the building of Aboriginal schools in large urban areas.
With that, I would like to thank you for your time and attention, and I would be happy to answer any of your questions.
The Chairman: Thank you both for informative and interesting submissions.
Senator St. Germain: If I understand correctly, Mr. Hamilton, you are with the Gabriel Dumont Institute?
Mr. Hamilton: Yes.
Senator St. Germain: Ms. LaPierre, are you with an actual Aboriginal school?
Ms. LaPierre: Yes.
Senator St. Germain: However, you are Metis.
Ms. LaPierre: I am Metis and I am a graduate of their program.
Senator St. Germain: That is what brings you together.
Ms. LaPierre: Yes.
Senator St. Germain: I grew up a Metis in Manitoba. My father was a trapper and the education that he could give me certainly did not relate to the world that we live in today. Yet he was sincere in everything he did and he was a great father.
The Metis parents that you are referring to need strengthening as far as guiding their young ones in their educational perspectives. The generation that I came from were still trappers, and they still lived off the land. You are dealing now with something different, I believe, with my children's generation of parents, with whom you want assistance. Where do they stand? Are they part of the modern civilization and the modern economy, or are they still partly back in my father's economy?
Mr. Hamilton: If I may ask, Senator St. Germain, did you go on to post-secondary education yourself?
Senator St. Germain: I did. I dropped out of high school, went back, then joined the air force, and I am thankful for the Royal Canadian Air Force and a bit of luck. Every time I go through Winnipeg, I say, ``Be it not for the grace of God, there go I, down Main Street, with a six-pack under my arm.''
Mr. Hamilton: I know the feeling, and I have uttered the same prayer many times. I am not sure if I disagree with you, and perhaps it is my advancing age, but what it takes is an interest in your child and your child's education. Trappers are smart people. My father-in-law was a trapper on the Churchill River. His daughter, my wife, went on to post-secondary education. You have to be smart to be a trapper. You have to study the animals and you have to know what the animals do. Perhaps Ms. LaPierre would disagree with me, but to me it is so important to get the parents involved. I have become quite adamant that we have to change. I believe the Aboriginal political organizations, the Aboriginal service organizations, and the Aboriginal parents are letting themselves off the hook. They have to take a ready interest in the child. We have immigrants who come to this country. They cannot even speak English, but they emphasize the importance of language, the importance of their own language, and the importance of getting an education. I know that Ms. LaPierre has made some good points, such as that sometimes there is not a level of comfort in the schools. That has to be worked on. Somehow we have to convince our parents — and I am saying it is us, the Metis community itself — that it is in the interests of the child, of the parents, and of the whole community to take a profound interest in the education of that child.
I am simplifying the matter, but quite frankly, I am tired of hearing stories about the residential schools and about what the white man did. I see people doing all kinds of other things in which they have an interest. They have to make a conscious decision that they will take an interest in their children's education.
Your father was a trapper. A gentleman from your neck of the woods, Paul Chartrand, is now a professor at the College of Law at the University of Saskatchewan. His father was a trapper. Many other people had fathers who were trappers, but those fathers knew enough to realize that the economy was changing and it would take new skills to survive.
Metis people have been doing this as far back as Riel and Louis Schmidt, when they were sent to Montreal to be educated. Some Metis parents knew. There is an assimilative side to education. Politicians in general, and Aboriginal politicians in particular, are passing the buck on this one.
Senator St. Germain: We are passing the buck, but the thing is that governments do not listen. Once they get in power, it does not matter what their stripe, they know best. Part of the solution may come from government but, by and large, the moment a government takes office in this country, they become all-knowing and all-wise and they do not listen to anyone. They say they will consult, and they generally do not. Therefore, how do we approach this?
I hear what you are saying. You are giving the problem to us. You are working amongst these communities now. I came from this background. I wanted to be a commercial pilot, and I ended up doing that, but how do we get to these parents? The parents need to have role models and heroes as well. If there is a problem in our system, it is that we do not have heroes. Senator Chalifoux and I have tried, but the Tory party has tied up the Riel bill, which to me is a beginning. If you do not have heroes, or some role models to look up to, even as parents, how do you instil the pride that is required to overcome some of the difficulties of Metis children? When we were kids, we were told that we could not go into the grocery store because we were all thieves, inherently, by virtue of our birth.
I hear what are you saying. You are the professional. You are in the ranks. You are out there with the troops. What could we be doing to help this? I have talked to Margaret Swann in Manitoba, and a host of native people right across the country, even more than Metis people.
Mr. Hamilton: I am not asking for more money to be spent. If it is there, fine, but if it is not, I happen to know, and I would be willing to sit down in any committee and say this, that we are expending money already. Ms. LaPierre worked as a home liaison person. There is one thing we need right there. We need more people working with the parents, encouraging them to come to the school and telling them that that school is not really that bad. It is their school. I know, because I have four sons. The oldest one went to what they call a ``community school'' in Prince Albert. We would have people come to the house and, of course, with a shy person like myself, it was not too hard to persuade me to go to the school, but for other people it is a bit more problematic.
The other aspect is work experience. We have a major problem when Metis, First Nations and Inuit people get to the socialization age. In Saskatoon, for example, you need to combine the high school level with some work experience, and it does not have to cost a lot. We have a main thoroughfare called Eighth Street, which is on the east side of the river. If you know Saskatchewan, being on the east side or the west side means everything. On the east side, Eighth Street is about six miles long. There are about 60 fast-food outlets there. I know because Ms. LaPierre and I tried every one of them when she was in school. You cannot find one Metis or Aboriginal person in any of those places, not one. You go downtown to Sears, to the Bay. The kids go to high school and they look around at society and they say, ``Why in the hell should I try? What is there for me?'' There is that sort of issue, but if they see their peers and other people in work environments, that will help.
Senator Pearson: I have been going through your presentations. It is interesting, Ms. LaPierre, to have someone with your background and knowledge of how school systems work, because you have worked not only in the school of which you are now the principal, but you have obviously been working within the Calgary school system and have studied curriculum. My question will focus on curriculum, because you suggest in your comments that it has not improved that much over the last 20 years with respect to Aboriginal peoples, even though so many people have been making positive noises.
I would be interested in knowing what are the roadblocks in changing the curriculum? I could point to the Province of Alberta, but I am sure other provinces are just as recalcitrant on this.
Ms. LaPierre: It depends on the province, and in Saskatchewan they are quite progressive in their curriculum. For example, when I was a high school teacher in Prince Albert, native studies was equal to the social studies program. You could take native studies and get credit for that course. In Alberta, two years ago I was working on Aboriginal studies 10, 20 and 30, and they were just piloting it last year. It was an optional course. The priority of the Aboriginal study course in Alberta is not equal opportunities for credit, as it was in Saskatchewan. I cannot speak for B.C., even though I lived there for a number of years, because I was not in the education system. For example, at Alberta Learning, they are not progressive in their thinking in the way Saskatchewan has been for the last 20 years, and they have some catching up to do.
Senator Pearson: Are there more educators like you?
Ms. LaPierre: Yes, we are infiltrating. They do have an Aboriginal education department within Alberta Learning, so they are making steps toward writing curriculum and approving the locally developed courses.
Senator Pearson: That is promising.
Ms. LaPierre: It is slow but sure.
Senator Pearson: I notice on one of the charts that the good news is that you will be able to attract a number of women into your post-secondary program in education. I suppose that is typical of education across the board, because more women go into it than men. You talk also in your chart about the numbers of women who enter as single parents. It is not them I want to talk about. You talk about parental involvement, about which you are absolutely right. I want to talk about some of the high school kids and the issue of literacy.
We know that children are made more vulnerable when their parents are not literate, and/or, because sometimes it is the same thing, when a mother, for example, is depressed. This is not just for Aboriginal people, but is true across the board. There are a large number of mothers in single-parent families who are depressed for a variety of quite understandable reasons. In your literacy programs, in your attempt to bring families into the school and to connect them and so on, are you able to work on that perspective, because you cannot really get them to read to their children if they do not know how.
Ms. LaPierre: We are fortunate enough to have a home/school liaison person on staff who works with our families when they are in crisis, but our new family program that we are implementing has a strong literacy component, and we will have a library through which the parents can access material. Also, we will have people working with our families to improve their literacy rate so that they are better able to help their children.
Senator Pearson: Are they motivated? Is there resistance?
Ms. LaPierre: Because our school is a program of choice, they want to be there. There are requirements to be involved with their children, so they are eager to begin learning with their children as well.
Senator Pearson: Thank you, and good luck.
Senator Hubley: I want to follow up on a question that Senator Pearson raised. You just mentioned that your school is a school of choice for Aboriginal people. Do you have occasions when children are not accepted because the parents will not accept the responsibility that you feel they should at that time?
Ms. LaPierre: Yes, we have had such experiences. Just last week we had to deal with a parent whose child had been enrolled at our school for about a month or six weeks and she was basically a non-attendee. When our teachers phoned home every day, she got annoyed so she removed her child and put her into the school downstairs. However, they did the same thing. They would phone home all the time. Then she came back up and asked if she could come back to our school. I told her that until the issue of attendance was resolved and she could make a commitment — and I would actually put her on an attendance contract rather than her child — then I was not able to take her at our school because attendance needed to be 90 per cent or more.
Senator Hubley: I would like to ask another question, which has to do with that number of high school students who drop out. You had suggested that you have programming for students at risk. Could you elaborate on those and how successful they are at turning those students around, when they might have been dropouts and now you have been able to re-engage them? Having been re-engaged, they will go on to be successful, or I feel they will.
Ms. LaPierre: What is overlooked with high school dropouts is that — for example, I was a high school dropout — sometimes, people forget to look at the return rate of mature students. I returned to school at the ripe age of 34. In our class that year, few were young. Out of our class of 26, 22 of us were mature students who were returning to university. They are often overlooked.
We also have that program within the Calgary Board of Education, where we work with families of students who are at risk for whatever reason, and quite often they are crisis reasons, whether they be addictions, family violence or whatever may be interfering with education. Until you get those issues resolved, it is hard to teach someone who is not coming to school in a teachable frame of mind. Sometimes, you have to take a step aside and try to get them feeling that they are able to resume and carry on. Sometimes, you have to be away from school to deal with those things. A lot of our students also enter the justice system and they have to get those things figured out before they can enter school.
I can recall students with whom I worked. One of them will be returning for her post-secondary education. She is a teacher at one of our schools in Saskatoon. I worked with her when she was 16. Just being there and being a means of support for them, working with their families and having the families come into the schools to work out issues is important. Quite often, it was attendance issues. You then had to look at what was interfering with attendance, deal with it and move on.
I do not know if that answers your question.
Senator Hubley: Yes it does.
[Translation]
Senator Gill: I would like to pursue the same line of questioning as Senator St. Germain and touch on the references to parents and models. I would also like to comment briefly on one of your recommendations in which the following is noted:
[English]
The provincial curriculum ought to be reflective of Aboriginal people and include the contribution Aboriginal people have made to Canada.
[Translation]
If you feel the need to say this, it means that the aboriginal presence is not understood or accepted as an integral component of this country. That is why we feel it is important for this to be taught in the schools. The problem lies in getting Canadians to understand the meaning of being an aboriginal, a Métis, or a member of a First Nation. Mr. Hamilton seemed to be implying that politicians were shirking their responsibilities. Everyone is guilty of doing that because Canadian culture has not evolved in such a way that First Nations are accepted with their differences. We are missing the boat by not banding together to educate non-aboriginals and those who do not understand the situation. Policies are not made by aboriginals.
Whether a person's father was a trapper or a farmer is irrelevant. The important thing is to be proud of one's parents because they instill in us fundamental values such as justice, sharing and respect for others.
My father was a trapper. That is not important, however. What matters is having role models and valuable reference points. That is the reason why many young people have problems today. Couples separate, families break apart and young people have little in the way of a model to look up to, aside from their mother. With respect to reference points, young people need to have some hope. How can urban youth expect to make something of their lives if they break off all ties with their community? As you said, these youths hang out in certain parts of the city and do not encounter other aboriginals or Métis. How will they ever be able to integrate into society and achieve happiness?
[English]
The Chairman: Would either one of you like to respond?
Ms. LaPierre: I would like to respond to the issue of the curriculum. You are right; currently it is being created by the dominant society. There are provinces that have Aboriginal education but, again, it goes back to the heroes. We need to have heroes in our curriculum for Aboriginal people, who would be portrayed in a positive light. It would be positive to reflect on the heroes in our past who have created our future.
Mr. Hamilton: There are many questions.
Senator Gill: I know.
Mr. Hamilton: On the question of curriculum, it has often been my experience that Aboriginal people — and I can only speak from the Metis perspective — look to government and, all of a sudden, there is a magical solution at the federal, provincial or Aboriginal government level. That is not the case. In most cases, the answers are right within the community. We have 600 fine people, such as Ms. LaPierre, who have come from the communities since 1980. In terms of curriculum, it has been my experience, from watching in Saskatchewan, that the education department would hire people to write the curriculum for education. Those people would enter a room and simply respond to someone's wish list. For example, they would say, ``Today we will write a book for the different grades.'' However, the best curriculum that we have produced for our community has come from those who have worked in the schools out of necessity.
This is also true for First Nations and Inuit people. You need the resources to develop your own curriculum. Government cannot do that; it can only be done within the communities by people such as Ms. LaPierre who work in the schools.
I do not think anyone down East has a good understanding of the Metis. There is a different dichotomy here — you are either Aboriginal or white. However, in the West there has been an evolution of new people. Concerning the reference point, you are right. There is no land; they do not have anything. It comes back to this question. Even from a jurisdictional perspective, Metis people are constitutional orphans. This is a resourcing problem, but the federal and provincial governments say that it is not their responsibility. I have heard Metis politicians say, for years and years, ``I do not want to be a federal or a provincial responsibility. I want to be responsible for myself.'' We are only looking for the needed resources so that we can tackle some of these questions. However, you are correct about the curriculum.
I want to share something with you. Back in September, I had the opportunity of being introduced to a Sami from Northern Finland, a lawyer and a good friend of Paul Chartrand at the University of Saskatchewan. He came to look at the justice systems in Canada and to examine the Aboriginal situation in Saskatchewan. He was particularly interested in that because we have a Metis fellow who has recently been appointed a judge and travels in the North. He went north with the judge for one week.
However, before that, I took him to downtown Saskatoon, to places that he would not have seen on his own: the soup kitchens, the bingo halls and other such places. People come from the North and other rural areas — Metis people — and they have no skills. The lawyer went north with the judge to do the circuit and returned to Saskatoon. He was appalled and said to me, ``You would never see anything like this in my country.''
Again, I want to be positive. We have developed a great curriculum. As Ms. LaPierre pointed out, when she went to school there were many mature students, 26 to 28 years old, and sometimes older. There is evidence that things are turning around. We have many people coming out of high school who have completed their grade 12. There is some evidence that the attrition rate is dropping. However, it is very disheartening and frustrating sometimes when you have been at this for such a long time. I sometimes call the attrition rate, or the dropout rate, the ``rejection rate.'' Sometimes, I think the kids who drop out are actually the strongest ones; they simply reject school. Who else would want to go into an environment where your history is not appreciated, your family is not included, et cetera? In fact, if you make it through the K-to-12 system as an Aboriginal person and never have any problems, I would say there is something wrong with you. There are many positive signs and I want to conclude on that note.
Senator Christensen: Thank you for appearing before the committee today. Many of my questions have been spoken to.
Our study is looking at youth who have come from rural areas to urban centres. We will try to find ways of making their lives and their futures meaningful and productive. When they come to the institutions that you people spoke about, one-half of their battles have been won because they have role models and guidance. Our concern is the time between when they arrive in the cities and when they can enter these streams. How do we deal with that?
I have looked at your statistics, Mr. Hamilton, which could apply to any young person, male or female. If they do not receive their education, they will fall. A young woman with no education will be washing dishes; a young man with no education might be hired on to a labour crew and earn a better living. That is the way it is, unfortunately, and young people must be aware of that. If they are to look after themselves and their future families, education is the key to a productive life.
Ms. LaPierre, are there children from disadvantaged areas in your school — children who have come to the city from rural areas? From what you said, it would appear that people find you because they are looking for an alternative for their families. You would probably not get the single mother who has just arrived in Calgary.
Ms. LaPierre: Actually, some of our families have been homeless. The good thing about our school is that it does not matter where they live in the city because we provide transportation; we will pick up the children and deliver them to school. They can move to any area.
Senator Christensen: How do they find you?
Ms. LaPierre: They find us by moccasin telegraph and by word of mouth. They have heard about us from other people.
Senator Christensen: Often, they feel quite unstable in the city and move back to the rural setting. There is much travel back and forth. How does that work?
Ms. LaPierre: There is a great deal of transience because they feel they cannot survive in the city, for whatever reason, and so they return to their reserve. Again, they always turn around and come back to the city. Our doors are open to those families who want to make a commitment to their children's education.
Senator Christensen: Does that happen often?
Ms. LaPierre: It happens at two time periods in the school year: the first is in September, when everyone is moving into the city, and the second is in January and February, when things become difficult for them in the city. There is another shift back to the reserve at that time. This occurs not just in our school, but also in schools generally throughout urban Calgary. The reasons are probably economic, more often than not. They come to the city and find the struggles too great, or they feel too alienated and so they need to go home, but then they come back again.
Senator Christensen: What percentage of the student body would come from that kind of family situation?
Ms. LaPierre: About 10 per cent of our families have difficulties with homelessness and the transitions back and forth.
Senator Christensen: Do you find that those who have been in your system, but have gone back to the areas from which they came, come back to you when they do return?
Ms. LaPierre: More often than not, yes.
Senator Christensen: If they have done this two or three times, is there an increasing pattern in the lengths of their stay? Do they stay longer and longer and then, finally, really settle in?
Ms. LaPierre: Is it not always the same families. It depends on the family and on the situation.
The Chairman: First, talking about curriculum, we have been negotiating the curriculum for many years and trying to get Aboriginal curriculum into the schools. We found out that there is a certain board on curriculum development controlled by the province. They only look at curriculum every five years. I am talking about Alberta. They totally ignore us. There have been several attempts to get a curriculum developer from our own nation to go in there and really work with them. However, that has not happened. Pearl Calahasen, Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, was on that curriculum board, but we were stymied. They wrote a couple of books and that was about it. I do not even know where those books are now.
I was asked to go to B.C. to work on Metis curriculum for the Prince George School Division. The board there said, ``See all these books here? That is all Aboriginal curriculum and it is just sitting on the shelves. We do not deal with it.'' Through the Metis in Prince George, we got a curriculum developer to go in there. She used our Metis role models in the justice system, so that when they were talking about justice, they could use that. It never happened. They totally ignored us.
I should like to know about your experiences in Saskatchewan and in Alberta regarding the curriculum, how you are being accepted and how we can infiltrate that curriculum board, or whatever it is, to ensure that we have this type of curriculum. What we are really talking about here is Canadian history, and they refuse to accept it.
I should like some information on that.
Ms. LaPierre: As I said earlier, Saskatchewan is certainly a lot more progressive, in my experience, than Alberta.
I can only speak from my experience. Having worked on the curriculum in Alberta, Aboriginal studies 10, 20 and 30, there were roadblocks to wherever we were going with the curriculum. The year that I was an Aboriginal specialist, I worked on the curriculum. It had already been in progress for four years, but had still not been completed. People were uncomfortable, in particular, with Aboriginal studies 10, 20 and 30, including the spirituality part and Aboriginal culture. The curriculum people were strong and adamant, saying, ``We cannot separate the two. This is who we are as Aboriginal people.'' Finding willing school boards to put it in place was another hurdle for the people who were piloting the program, or who wanted to pilot the program.
How that can be moved forward is a difficult question. I do not have the answer for that. How do you make people move on things that are important? As you said, it is Canadian history.
The Calgary Board of Education developed an international policy. Again, in order to keep it alive and active so it does not sit on the shelf, it must be pushed at the upper levels. We are quite fortunate right now. We have a chief superintendent who is proactive in terms of Aboriginal policies. He will push for it to continue to be active in the schools. However, it will take a lot of work and many decades to bring it alive in the curriculum.
Mr. Hamilton: Great strides have been made in the curriculum. I caution Ms. LaPierre about saying how progressive Saskatchewan is, however. It is just a bit different. It is progressive in one area but problematic in another. The sense comes from the communities. You need to work with the people who are right in the trenches. Ms. LaPierre would know more about what is going on in curriculum in terms of the schools.
I sat on curriculum committees for a lot of years. I must admit that I was one who, at one time, decided that in high school we needed native studies 10, 20 and 30. There was a great fellow who worked with Saskatchewan Education and put together these great binders, curriculum guides. They were marvellous. There was more information there than in a native studies 110 course for university. It was fabulous. However, my experience — and I am being upfront with you — is that in many of the high schools that I went into, the parents, and other people, would say, ``Well, that is native studies. My kid does not need that.''
In developing Metis or other Aboriginal curriculum, whether for children or more historical stuff, if I had to do it over again, I would say, ``Here is Canadian History,'' as a broad title. I would then include elements of what 1869 to 1870 was about and what the treaty process was all about. It may sound duplicitous, but that is what is happening in Saskatchewan. We have students right now throughout all grades, elementary and high school. Last week, we sat down and had some debriefing sessions. We are always running into situations where the teachers are saying, ``Well, no, we do not need to teach anyone that because we do not have any Metis or First Nations kids here.'' I just throw that out for your information.
Curriculum is very problematic at the university level. It takes 2.5 years to push a new course through the system for acceptance and it is much harder to get a class established. You would think that, with all the smart people at university, it would be easier to get a class on the books. It is not. It is an absolutely painstaking process to get a new class on the books at university.
I would say to fellow senators that one of the papers you commissioned is now being taught as one of our classes at university.
The Chairman: That is the definition of ``Metis'' that our caucus put forward. That is excellent.
On January 9, Robert Nault announced in the Edmonton Journal that the federal government is considering establishing a new system of Aboriginal school boards. The boards would be set up across the country and would operate under provincial jurisdiction. This announcement stems from forthcoming recommendations by the minister's advisory panel of Aboriginal experts on education that is set to release its report in mid-February.
In your opinion, how important is this type of reform in improving the education outcomes for Aboriginal students and what affect will this type of reform have on existing partnerships between federal, provincial and First Nations governments, and also Metis governments?
Have you heard about this at all?
Mr. Hamilton: I am working closely with another graduate who now works for the Saskatchewan Tribal Council as a teacher services consultant in North Battleford, which has just taken steps towards setting up an all-Aboriginal high school. There are a number of First Nations bands around North Battleford that have pooled their resources. It has been quite a hotly contested topic.
We had a unique situation at the University of Saskatchewan. There is a program there, run by the College of Education, which is similar to our program but it caters to First Nations people. There was some concern because these people had their own student lounge. The dean did not like this, because here are these First Nations people, visitors come and it looks ghettoized. He moved mountains and did what he had to do, but he got rid of the lounge. Everyone had to go downstairs, where there are the First Nations and Metis people, as well as other people.
I have one son who went to Nutana, which is for all intents and purposes, except for governance, an Aboriginal high school. I think a great many of the students feel a greater comfort level there. I cannot speak for down East, and I say this from a personal perspective, but I am not a big believer in pan-Aboriginal initiatives. I never have been. Mr. Nault can expect some resistance there.
The implementation side comes more from First Nations policies and procedures, because they feel that they have established treaty rights. The Crown has fiduciary obligations to them and I agree with them. When you throw a Metis into the mix, that old jurisdictional question comes up again. Pan-Aboriginal initiatives have never worked in Saskatchewan. The question is whether you can have a First Nation or a Metis school board or whether you can have a school board where there are representatives from each community.
Is it good? To tell you the truth, my heart says yes, but my head has some reservations. Right away, you are talking about segregation. Socio-economic circumstances in our province and demographics have already sent us down that road, though. We have Joe Duquette, which started out as a survival school and is basically on its way to becoming an Aboriginal school, as well as Nutana. The numbers have dictated that, if it provides some means of implementing some of the things that we have talked about and if it changes the education outcomes. I know this committee will go away and have a coffee and say, ``God, that guy is a complainer,'' but I have said for years and years, even in our great institute, we do not have Metis education. We have Metis control of what I call ``white education,'' even within our program. You know, I want Ms. LaPierre to come home to Saskatchewan and teach at the university for us.
I do not believe for a moment that only Metis people can teach Metis history. In fact, they are more revisionist that anyone. However, we need more Metis people as teachers in an environment where they can operate before we can have Metis education. I do not know how many people Ms. LaPierre has worked with, but usually they are in a school situation where their impact is limited. I know people will have concerns. You talk about Saskatchewan being progressive. I can hear Mr. Pankiw when he hears about this one.
The status quo has not worked for many years. We still have close to a 90 per cent dropout rate in Saskatchewan. Why not give it a try for a while?
Ms. LaPierre: I should like to respond to your question about Aboriginal school boards. I have the same political fears that Mr. Hamilton expresses in terms of what would be the mixture? Would it be urban? Perhaps because I am working within a large school board, my first instinct would be to say, rather than have separate Aboriginal school boards, why do we not have the support of the local school boards in place and have a strong Aboriginal component, or another umbrella group. This is for two reasons. First, perhaps it would prevent on the political side the separation of Metis, First Nations and Inuit people. Second, with the governance already in place, why not just develop the Aboriginal content? If you already have the support of a large urban Aboriginal school board, what is there to change? Why not add to it? The policies and procedures are in place. Some, perhaps, need to be revisited to make things a little more real for the Aboriginal community. That is my initial reaction.
Support what is good and what is in place.
The Chairman: Can I ask both of you, how do you find the latent racism experience? Is it improving? Is it the same? I am talking about your acceptance within the general population of the teachers' association and that sort of thing.
Ms. LaPierre: Within the Calgary Board of Education, because there are so few of us, in fact, the first year that I was there, I was looking for other Aboriginal teachers as well as trying to beat the bushes for all our Aboriginal students, because a lot of them are non-identified. Maybe many of them are French-Canadian too, like myself. However, because there are so few of us doing the work that we do, I find in our school board there is acceptance from the few leaders and the teachers. I still think there is a lot of room for growth in the hiring of Aboriginal teachers. Then again, when I was hiring teachers, I interviewed both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, and I did not hire based on the colour of their skin but on their curriculum strength in literacy. In our school, there are two Aboriginal teachers and four who are not. As soon as there are a greater number of strong curriculum teachers, there certainly will be more Aboriginal teachers in our school. It is more the passion for teaching and learning, no matter what the colour of your skin, that is important, especially in taking on a new endeavour. Currently, you need a lot of resilience to survive in our school because we are very new.
At the same time, there is always the personal experience of racism. I experienced that the most in Prince Albert, which has a large Aboriginal community. It was just on the streets. I was taken aback to find that in such a small community with such a large Aboriginal population. It depends on the city and the community.
The Chairman: That is very interesting.
Ms. LaPierre: It is.
Mr. Hamilton: My situation is a bit unique. I do not think most people would connect me with the Metis community. On the other hand, I do go places where sometimes I feel like a ghost walking around. I often imagine this must be what a Jewish person feels like. I go into places, people will be sitting there and they will say whatever, whereas in the case of others, they would say very different things.
I would hope that generally in Saskatchewan, things are getting better. I am not sure about that, however. I think that sometimes we develop an antidote or something and then the resistance on the other side gets stronger. It is hard to believe that, on the one hand, we have Pankiw on one side of the city, while on the other we have situations where two police officers have been charged with dumping people out on a side road in the middle of January. The community is polarized and this does show up in schools. A lot of it is created by economics.
Saskatoon is a fine place to live, but the economy, the drought, et cetera, have an effect. Any time the economy is bad, there is competition for resources. Is it improving in Saskatchewan? I am not sure that it is. I find it hard to believe sometimes that it is improving; I wish I could say differently. I have four sons and the oldest and youngest are visibly Aboriginal. They have, of course, talked to me about their experiences. My wife is also visibly Aboriginal, and I think they would tell you today that it is not any better than it was before. In fact, it is probably worse now than it was some years ago.
The Chairman: Thank you. Are there any other questions?
Senator Pearson: I have a follow-up to the Chair's question. The issue is: what school is best for the children? Should it be more or less separate; should it be mixed or not mixed? These are important questions for children with disabilities, or for immigrant children, or, indeed, for all boys and girls. Should we separate them or not? I visited a primarily Aboriginal school, about three years ago, in Edmonton. Do you know which one I mean?
Ms. LaPierre: Was it a high school?
Senator Pearson: No, it was an elementary school.
Ms. LaPierre: It may have been Prince Charles or Ben Calf Robe.
Senator Pearson: The school had a wonderful principal, and I think that in school systems, it is the leadership that makes it work. I envy the children in your school because I am convinced that you are a great principal. It makes a huge difference. If you were looking into the future, would you like to see more Aboriginal principals and staff? Would you like to see schools that were separate or a combination? I am sure you would agree with the need for the leadership.
Ms. LaPierre: Yes, I do. Actually, I would wish for, not only separate schools, but also for schools that serve the needs in the mainstream. As I said earlier, we serve a certain population of Aboriginal people who seek to have the language and culture at school as a supplement to what they are trying to do at home.
Definitely, we need more Aboriginal teachers in our schools, and more of those with master's degrees so that they can lead the changes that are happening in education.
Actually, I consider myself fortunate to be the principal of that school, because of the benefits. Coming from a high school to an elementary school was a bit scary, but now I see the benefits. I receive lots of hugs every day and I am very fortunate to be their principal. It would be nice if the needs of our other Aboriginal students were met in ordinary schools, with a sensitivity to their culture and an acceptance and reflection of that in their curriculum, and not just a mix such that they bring in a culture component for one day per week and claim to offer Aboriginal content.
Senator Pearson: I understand that. Are there any Aboriginals on school boards in either of your provinces?
Mr. Hamilton: We had one lady in Regina who worked for the institute who was elected as a school board member. We have people in the North who sit on the school boards. In fact, the chair of our institute also sits as the Chair of the Northern Lights School Board in Northern Saskatchewan, where the population is 70 per cent Metis. In the urban centres, we have none.
Senator Pearson: That is another issue. We need to work on the leadership and not just on the heroes. We need to provide both the positive image and that kind of mentor, so that young people can see an alternate future for themselves, as opposed to whatever they are looking at now. We are encouraged by your presence, even if you are discouraged in some of your messages.
The Chairman: If there are no further questions, I would like to thank both of our witnesses. It has been enlightening and interesting.
The committee adjourned.