Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 10 - Evidence (afternoon session)
EDMONTON, Friday, March 21, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 1:20 p.m. to study issues affecting urban Aboriginal youth in Canada and, in particular, to examine access; provision and delivery of services; policy and jurisdictional issues; employment and education; access to economic opportunities; youth participation and empowerment; and other related matters.
Senator Thelma J. Chalifoux (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: It is my very great pleasure to welcome Rev. James Holland. I would ask the individual who is accompanying you, Rev. Holland, to introduce herself.
Ms. Heather Jacobs, Social Worker, Aboriginal Learning Centre: Honourable senators, after talking to Father Jim about his presentation today, he asked me to join him, and I said I would be happy to do that.
The Chairman: Before we hear from our witnesses, I will ask senators to introduce themselves, please.
Senator Carney: I am Senator Pat Carney, and I am from British Columbia. I would ask for your indulgence, because I am not familiar with all the place names that are being referred to, nor can I pronounce the Alberta Aboriginal names. They are so different from the coastal names.
I am very pleased to be here. I serve on this committee because Aboriginal issues are extremely important in British Columbia, and because it gives me an opportunity to work with Senator Chalifoux.
Senator Pearson: I am Senator Landon Pearson, and I am from Ontario.
Senator Sibbeston: My name is Senator Nick Sibbeston, and I am from the Northwest Territories. I can confirm that I was at church on Sunday, at Sacred Heart, and saw you, Father.
The Chairman: I am Thelma Chalifoux. I am the chair of the Standing Senate Committee of Aboriginal Peoples. We have been discussing this issue for, I would say, almost three years. In the past 18 months, we have been actively studying the subject.
Rather than having the non-Aboriginal community study us again, we chose to have the Aboriginal community take part in the successes and the issues and the barriers facing Aboriginal people in the urban centres, focusing on the youth. As you both know, a holistic approach is necessary when dealing with youth. When we talk about youth, we must talk about the family. So this is what we have been doing. This is the final leg of the western tour.
It is my great pleasure to have you here this afternoon, Father Jim.
Rev. James L. Holland, O.M.I., Sacred Heart Church: I am the pastor of Sacred Heart Church of the First Peoples. We are the official national parish for First Nations and Metis people in this archdiocese. We are also the only native parish that has ever been designated a national parish. There are many native parishes that are within reserves or the land area, but no North American bishop has ever designated a parish just for native people and Metis people. So, by church law, we are governed by our culture and our languages as opposed to land and/or jurisdictional boundaries. Hence, in this archdiocese, anyone with any native or Metis blood is my parishioner, if he or she chooses to come to Sacred Heart.
We are very proud to be who we are, and we are not ashamed to say it. In terms of our décor, the bishop has allowed us to be as native as we wish, while maintaining our Catholic image. For me, that is significant. In order for me to be proud of who I am as a person, I have got to be able to recognize my heritage.
My soft spot lies with children, because it is in our children that our future resides. I was asked to go to North Battleford to celebrate a native mass, because I wear moccasins and a buckskin chasuble, and we have sweet grass.
The significant thing about St. Mary Community School in North Battleford is that the student population is 85 per cent Aboriginal. They are just beginning to bring in things that look Aboriginal, other than the kids — because the kids very much look like Aboriginals; you cannot miss that.
In a discussion we had at a parent meeting that night, they wanted to talk to me about blending the Catholic Church and Aboriginals, because some of our traditional people get very uptight and nervous when the schools and the churches use traditional symbols. The parents were beginning to ask questions about their own heritage; many of them know very little about their culture. I believe that Aboriginal heritage and Aboriginal beliefs are important. Hence, we must allow them to have cultural symbols.
I do not teach native spirituality in church, and I encourage the school not to teach native spirituality. I tell them to bring in an elder to each our culture. In the church, we bring in elders to pray; we bring in elders to teach. If I have a difficulty, I go to the elders, because they are our teachers.
My church is in the inner city. It is an old parish. There are Italians, French and Vietnamese in the area. When they come to church, they are native, too, because the native tradition is to accept all people.
My concern regarding our children is that, often, inner-city programs are reactive programs. We have to change our way of thinking. We have got to be more proactive, and we have to get to our young people at an early age.
The Edmonton Inner City Children's Project — of which I am the treasurer — which is associated with our church is one of the few proactive programs in the inner city. We work in the school systems. We do not care what religion a student is. We do not even care if they do not pray; it does not matter to me. The kids need help; we help them.
Our program is an after-school program that the Alberta government has cut from its important list. We work with these kids. Many of our kids have no one to go home to — and once they get home, they get no guidance. In many cases, older kids are looking after the little ones. In our program, we help them with their homework. We have programs that are fun. We work with other organizations. We have involved the Alberta Piano Teachers Association. They give free piano lessons to about 120 children who, otherwise, would never have a chance in life to even touch a piano, much less learn how to play. Music is a discipline, whether you are playing drums or playing a piano. It is important for us to keep the kids busy.
Tommy Salo, who is the goalie for the Edmonton Oilers, and the goalie for Buffalo, I believe, each donated $150,000 toward a program for children of very young age to play hockey. The Catholic School Board would not take it because they said they had to offer it to all children in the city. The opportunity was going to die, so our program took it. Our director played international hockey with the Swiss hockey woman's team. She is a professional coach. In fact, she went to Lethbridge last summer to do a workshop and to renew her licence, to make sure she was up to date.
As a result of this money, hockey equipment is purchased for the kids. We have kids from as young as grade 1, three days a week. We take them on the ice twice a week. We bus them everywhere. We have staff that go with them, because when they get back to school, there may not be anyone waiting for them. This is not the suburbs, where the family car is sitting there waiting for the kids. We make sure they get home safely.
What is unique about the program is they do not have to make good grades, but they have to turn in all their homework. No homework, no hockey — and believe me, these kids want to play hockey. It is an opportunity for them to learn discipline. We are getting them at an early age. As you can see, it is a proactive program as opposed to a reactive program.
The cost of reactive programs to society is much greater than that of proactive programs. It is a matter of mindset. We have to change our minds about how we look at programs. Yes, we need to help those who are in trouble. I have no problem with that. I do a lot of fifth steps in AA, five or six a week, and I hear problems from young people whose lives have been wasted, to that point, on alcohol, drugs, whatever, because there was nothing there to help them when they needed it. There was nothing to get them started, no one to encourage them. That is what we have to do.
My theory on tradition is — and I know it is not what my elders necessarily view as tradition — is that the greatest tradition, whether in the church or in our native community, is adaptation. We adapt to the situation we are in. We use whatever is best for our people.
For example, I gave a talk in an Aboriginal studies course at the University of Alberta and a young man from that class called me after that. He liked what I said, he told me, but he said that he wants to learn about his people because he wants to take them back to their tradition. I asked him: ``What century do you want to take them back to? Do you want to take them back 500 years? Do you want to take them back 200 years, or 100 years?''
That really rang a bell with me, because our people, although they have maintained their ``nativeness'' and their traditions according to what they have been taught by their elders, have adapted to the modern world as well. They have taken the best of what they can get.
That is what we are looking for. Children, native and non-native, are children, and they have the same rights as any other citizen in this country. There are few differences we need to be concerned about vis-à-vis native people, in the same way that there are differences we need to address when we are dealing with the French, the Italians, the Portuguese, or people like myself. I come from the southern States, and believe me that is a whole other country.
We need to be concerned about those things, but we cannot lose track of the fact that children are human beings and they are the future of our people.
I had breakfast this morning with a former superintendent of the Catholic school board here. He gave me a book, and I want to quote from it. The book is about early-childhood education in Ontario. They have found, in the French schools, that participation in early pre-school programs positively impacts later school achievements, across all social and economic groups. The longer children attend preschool programs, which begin at age two and a half, the better their achievements in the first grade. What we are talking about here is public nursery school programs operated within the educational system. The teachers have to have the equivalent of a master's degree in early education. They are putting their money where it begins, not at the end.
Our daycares are awesome, and we have Head Start programs. The Sisters of the Atonement in my parish have a Head Start program for the poor. It is proactive, but it is the only one. There are no standards for us, to make sure that our programs for those preschool kids are the best. It is like building a house. Without a solid foundation, the house will not stand very long. If our kids do not have a solid foundation by the time they come to school, they will never last.
So, it is my plea and my hope that something will come from this, that we will learn from the studies that have already been done, the work that has already been done — it is out there; we just have read it — and start applying it.
I attend a lot of meetings, and an associate of mine who also attends a lot of those meetings said this: ``We are attending the same meetings and saying the same things we said 10 years ago.'' We have to stop talking and start doing. That means that our preschool children need our help. We need standards, and we need to make sure that the money the government is putting out there — and sometimes they can be very generous — is being put to good use. We have to ensure that it is accomplishing something. If not, put the money somewhere else, somewhere where it will do some good.
Ms. Jacobs: I understand that a couple of my peers presented here this morning, Pam Sparklingeyes and Sean McGuiness. I work in that same system. I am a social worker with the Edmonton Catholic School District; I work out of the Aboriginal Learning Centre.
Our overreaching goal is to get schools to hang onto kids longer, and as they hang onto them we will work with them. It is important to have results-based data by which to evaluate programs. People sometimes are reluctant to change what they are doing, and to do anything different means add to what they are already doing. We are not saying, ``Do it in addition to''; we are saying, ``Do it instead of.''
Sometimes it is a matter of moving resources. I am proud to be part of a children's services authority that is starting to put together some information on results-based data. How do you measure good results with a family? How do we demonstrate those good results? If we cannot do that, then what is the point?
Take the school system, for example. If I spend a lot of money testing students, identifying areas of weakness, but do not fundamentally do anything different in the way I teach them or treat them, then the student has not benefited. The only person who benefits is the person who comes in to do the testing.
I am gratified that systems are focussing more on results. What we found in children's services was that it was a matter of changing resources, not adding to. In that way, we do not keep doing business the same old way.
To do special Aboriginal things in addition to what we are doing, we look at best practice in a real way. There is some good research, some good studies out there, that people can look to.
The Aboriginal Learning Centre is integrated with the Catholic school system. That is the number one choice for Aboriginal parents in Canada, integrated settings. I know we have a segregated setting at Ben Calf Robe School. We advocate that there needs to be a continuum of choices for families, that families have different needs. We know that the needs are high in our community right now, and probably in my working career will remain the same.
I have some brochures that I will leave with the committee. I look forward to your questions.
Senator Sibbeston: Father Jim, whenever I am in town I enjoy going to mass at Sacred Heart Church. The atmosphere and the music are so beautiful. Some of the Aboriginal practices that have been adopted are unique and very nice features.
You have been in Edmonton for a number of years. When society responds to Aboriginal people, just like the church in your case is responding to Aboriginal people, what is the result? Do you see a difference in people, in terms of their healthiness or their spirituality? How significant is the spiritual aspect of people?
Rev. Holland: I personally think that we all have a spirit, and that is quite different than religion. We have to honour that spirit within us. When our society does not honour me, then they do not honour my spirit.
At Sacred Heart, we accept all people, just as they are. We are honouring their spirit. They come to Sacred Heart for renewal, so they can face the outside world. That is the way it should be in every church, but unfortunately that is not the case — regardless of whether it is a Catholic church, or a Protestant church, or whatever.
Thank God for Vatican II. Pope John XXIII said that the church is the people. He said that the building is where we meet, but without the people, we are not a church. That is so important for Aboriginal people. It is important for everyone. I am totally convinced that one of the greatest poverties we face in the world is the poverty of not belonging, of not feeling important. I can feed you, if you need food; I can get you clothing, if you need clothing; I can get you housing, if you need housing. We have agencies that do an awesome job. However, if you believe that no one cares about you, that you are not important, what then? That is what we attempt to do at Sacred Heart. We make people feel cared for, feel important. To me, that is spirituality.
Senator Sibbeston: Have you seen a difference as a result of your efforts?
Rev. Holland: Yes.
Senator Sibbeston: Particularly in your efforts with young people, what has happened in that regard?
Rev. Holland: When I first came to Sacred Heart, there were no programs for young people. We cannot do everything ourselves, however. It is important to be open and to network. The problem with our churches is that they are not open enough to other churches or other groups. That is why we work so closely with the Edmonton Inner City Children's Project. We are in the schools, and we are in the schools because the family trusts the schools. We have often suggested working with the Boys and Girls Club, but many of our families do not trust the Boys and Girls Club. They trust the schools, however.
Therefore, we have to go where the trust is. Aboriginal people, as well as our Oriental friends, do not trust immediately, because they have been deceived. Talk is cheap. We have to stop talking and start doing something. I can tell an Aboriginal person that I love him, but if I do not spend any time with him, if I am not going to sit down and have bannock and stew with him, then I am telling that person that he is really not important. Our Aboriginal people have been told by society that they are not important, that they have no value.
As I said earlier, I do fifth steps with Aboriginals. Many of them have been told, from early childhood, that they are no good — and not in words. Other than a teacher, perhaps, out of frustration, no one has said: ``You are no good; you will never make anything of yourself.'' Things that happen to them in our society reinforce that opinion. They feel prejudiced. Many people show prejudice toward Aboriginal people. If you cut the arm of an Aboriginal person, he or she will bleed just like you and I. We are all the same. That is the beautiful thing about their spirituality.
The medicine wheel we use has four colours on the edge, the four colours representing the four kinds of people in the world. When I went to Sacred Heart, we did not have a full church, and we barely could pay for our existence. Eight years later, I have never, ever spoken about money. I welcomed our parishioners. We bury them, we baptize them, we marry them. If they have money, we will accept a donation. However, for those who do not have money, we will still bury, baptize or marry them. That is the approach we use. We are accepting of them as being important and accepting of them as having value. I have no problem with the collection. I have no problem raising the funding to do things in the church.
Senator Carney: When I leave here, I will be going to Vancouver, to attend the 80th birthday of my cousin, Father Leo Casey, who was a member of your order, the Order of Mary Immaculate. He will be very interested in hearing about your attendance here. He spent many years teaching in the residential schools on the coast, in the days when they had to feed, educate and house Aboriginal kids for something like 40 cents a day. It was very hard in some of those settlements to do that.
Given the controversy about the delivery of education services through the church, is there controversy about the delivery of these services through Sacred Heart?
Rev. Holland: No.
Senator Carney: I would be interested in the use of the church, not just the Catholic Church, but institutions as delivery systems for programs, or are you ostracized as some churches are being?
Rev. Holland: No, I am not. I say that very quickly, because I am also on the board of directors of Catholic Social Services, which, several years ago, undertook to understand native spirituality and to hire natives. In a meeting with the CEO and some chiefs, one of the chiefs said that as long as the word ``Catholic'' is in the name, you would not get natives to work for the organization. They hesitated about hiring native people, but then they went ahead and did it anyway.
With respect to residential schools, however, yes, there were some horrible situations. However, our Aboriginal people were educated. They can speak and read as well as anyone else. We need to spend some of the time we spend focusing on residential schools making sure the public knows that our people are educated and can do any job as well as anyone else. That is not the message we are getting out to the public.
A lady asked me to go to her home and bless it, and she told me her life story. Her mother died and left her father with five children, one an infant. For some reason, there was division in the family. None of the family would take these children. He took the children to the sisters, and the sisters raised them. She told me that if it had not been for the sisters she would not be alive today.
I was at a funeral recently at Sturgeon Lake, which is near Lesser Slave Lake. Father Rouleaux was a principal up there for many years. He is a saint, because he treated them as if they were his family.
Sister Eva was my mentor. I came to the Oblates, not through any of the priests but through the sisters. She was my mentor. She spoke Cree as well as the Crees. She herself accepted them. That is not to say, however, that all priests and nuns were that good.
Hence, when I look at the residential school issue, I look at both sides. How did our leaders get their education? Yes, we need to work with those difficult situations, but we will have difficult situations in our school systems today, and we will have it in our school systems tomorrow.
Senator Carney: Just a little aside on this subject. Father Leo told us he was sent out as a young priest from the Ottawa Valley to the West Coast, to teach in the residential schools, and he had no training. They were given no cultural training at all. He used to the sleep in his bunk on the coast, in a village I know quite well, listening to the drums and the fires and ceremonies on Saturday nights, totally with conviction he was going to be scalped and that that was what all the commotion on the beach was about. Nevertheless, he spent his life in it.
I was interested in the fact that the Catholic Church here in Alberta seems to be a very strong delivery system of all these services and that somehow it still is seen as being effective.
Rev. Holland: We have a lot of lawsuits. However, what really concerns me in this whole issue is that the lawyers are getting rich, using our native people, once again, as instruments for their own benefit.
Senator Carney: I am against paying my assessment at church to pay them.
Rev. Holland: Exactly.
Senator Carney: Ms. Jacobs, in these hearings we have heard over and over that a generation of Aboriginal people — and you are one of them — is taking over the delivery of services that in the past were held by Oblates or white people or people from the Ottawa Valley. You are really the first generation of all these young people — teachers, social workers and Aboriginal learning centres — delivering services. How do you get the establishment to move over?
If we are going to produce young people in leadership roles, we will have to identify the barriers they face and the fact that a lot of people do not want what was a client they once gave welfare cheques to becoming a colleague. We run into this in inner city services. One of the coping skills we have to identify is: How did you do it? How do Aboriginal people get society to move over?
Ms. Jacobs: Sometimes you just have to have thick skin. We seem to be good at that. It is not without its challenges, though. Getting building capacity in systems as well as building capacity in your community is really a hard job to do simultaneously. It is a thankless job, sometimes, because a system is not going to thank you for reminding them they have not really done a good job. We get seen as a group; we do not usually get seen as individuals, Aboriginal groups.
Senator Carney: Stereotyped?
Ms. Jacobs: We are seen as a group. In other words, when non-Aboriginals meet Aboriginals, everything the non- Aboriginals have ever known about Aboriginals comes to mind; in other words, Aboriginals carry that collective. Hence, our presence does and says other things to big systems.
I talked about doing things instead of and not in addition to. I am glad the days are gone when you could earn a living in Aboriginal country and then go home to the suburbs on the weekend and talk about what a tax burden Aboriginals are. So our confidence, our cultural esteem, all of those things are increasing, and our numbers are increasing. There are implications here for politicians, as well as for other groups.
However, none of this has come about without a lot of conflict and barriers. It is like any situation where an individual is being forced to do something — sometimes it is done just out of need.
Unfortunately, the role of a liaison is undervalued. We have a system of a culture and of a community that come together, and of course there are places where that always rubs. In terms of the liaison, it is almost like you create a third culture, to be able to work within that, to mediate a good solution for a child or for a family or for a youth. We are learning to articulate for ourselves our value and to also tell the organization what value we bring to it. That articulation skill is critical.
I know you have heard from Mr. Cardinal and people like him who have worked very hard at being able to articulate that value, and we always have to articulate, of course, in English, because that is the language of systems.
I hope I have answered your question.
Senator Carney: Partly. In terms of your earlier point ``instead of'' rather than ``in additional to,'' is your point that you are going to break down barriers for Aboriginals in the education system and give them more opportunities, that they cannot be treated like ``additions''?
Ms. Jacobs: Yes, otherwise you are an afterthought. It has to have an equally predominant place, whether we are talking about a curriculum or training.
Senator Carney: What about integration?
Ms. Jacobs: Yes. Integration is harder, I must tell you. I have worked on both sides. If I never had to leave my culture, where would I be right now? Integration is always a harder job to do because you have to pay attention to many more things. Integration needs to be built into programs. I train teachers to understand my community. I work with the teachers who are in conflict with the kids, and I have to find a way to keep that teacher on side, to create the best learning environment. Do I always want to do that, and do I always want to do it cheerfully? No.
Senator Carney: In approaching these issues, what works best? Is the best practice to teach Aboriginal students in an Aboriginal atmosphere, or in an Aboriginal parish, or is the best practice to teach them in an integrated environment?
Ms. Jacobs: It is a choice. Non-Aboriginals are not given one choice only, so I do not think you Aboriginal people should be given one choice. There should be a continuum of choices. I have four children — three of them went to an integrated setting, and one went to a segregated setting. They all did okay.
Rev. Holland: I can agree with Heather on that as well, because Aboriginals want to be treated as human beings first. That makes us proud of who we are. I want to be treated as a human being first.
As an aside, senator, when I first immigrated to Canada I went to Vancouver. I have followed your political career for years. You are a familiar face to me. So when I saw your name on the list, I felt like I was going to see someone I already knew.
Senator Carney: Did you know Father Leo?
Rev. Holland: I may have. I went to church on a regular basis. However, it is when I went up to North to work with the native people that I came to the church.
Senator Carney: I will give him your regards.
Rev. Holland: Yes, do. I come from a Southern Baptist and Pentecostal background. I am the only Catholic in my family.
Senator Carney: That is okay, because in the North, everyone who is Catholic is also Pentecostal.
Rev. Holland: We are just one big happy family.
Senator Pearson: I do not know whether you have read the Life of Pi, but it is the story of a wonderful Indian boy who is everything, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, and who sees the good point in all of them. He would do well in the native society.
We have been heard constantly throughout our hearings the impact of parenting. You spoke about early childhood education and the importance of highly qualified people. In your church, or in the work you are doing, are you working on this issue of parenting?
Rev. Holland: Within the church itself, no, because we do not have the funding. We are an inner city parish. However, there is a tremendous need.
Our school systems have to get involved in this. There are vacant schools in the inner city. We cannot work only with the child. The family is so important. I can look after that child after school, and make him or her feel important, but if the child goes home and the mother and father cannot make it feel important, then what?
I am not one to blame residential schools for everything. Something in our society has caused this, not only in our native people. Residential schools is how they schooled in those days. That is how they delivered services. It was not perfect. They do not deliver services today in perfection.
When I was in the seminary, I had a professor who was from Canada, from a diocese in Victoria, B.C. He said that history was messy, but that we polish it. When the history books are written, we make everybody sound so wonderful.
I come from the States. When I think of the people who signed the American constitution, I think of them as gods. In reality, they were not; they were ordinary human beings.
Life is messy. What we have to do is work together, not just as Aboriginal people but as Canadians, as people in this world, and help all people to be the best they can. That is what we have to do for Aboriginal people. They really need help to be the best they can — and they can. We have to change the mindset about that. Our Aboriginal people can be as good as anyone else in this world, but they need to have given the same opportunity as everyone else. We need to ensure that they get the best education and that parents are taught how to look after their children.
We ran a couple of programs that were funded by the Heritage Foundation, and the results were awesome. However, because we did not connect with the right person, the program was discontinued. The federal government does not believe in funding for food. Well, you do not get an Aboriginal group together unless there is a little something to eat. Food is a part of every gathering. If we gather in here, we have to have coffee. We learn about each other by sitting around and eating and talking.
We still have wakes at Sacred Heart. We are the only group in the city, of any religion, that has wakes. A wake provides a healing process to a family. They sit together, and talk and eat. It is like the lodge. In the lodge, they prayed, they ate, they were together. They learned. That is what we need to do. Stop blaming it on the residential schools.
Senator Pearson: I know we all want to move ahead on that issue, but there are some significant points about the residential school system that have to be taken into account, through our ongoing work, because we have certainly heard from people who have talked about fourth-generation effects. In one case, it was not so much the quality or not of the education, it was the fact that the children were removed often against the will of their parents.
Rev. Holland: Sometimes.
Senator Carney: Sometimes with their parents' will.
Senator Pearson: I am not saying all the time. Children were away at school, and often parents only saw their children for the few months they were home in the summer. Parents had to adapt to their children during that period.
One of the women who presented to us in Vancouver told us that when she started having children her own experience of discipline was that it was punitive, because that is what she experienced. She had no compensatory other experience within her own community. It is those things we need to recognize and work on. She has recognized that, and she has learned and gone on and is doing wonderful work.
I agree, it is not just Aboriginal parents that have problems. Parents nowadays are saying that they think bringing up their children is the most important work they do. However, the bad news is that they do not know what they are doing. I think the human issues are very real. Spending time with small babies and small children is very challenging.
Rev. Holland: Someone explained to me that the adults that come out of the residential schools learned to be supervisors, because they were raised by supervisors; they did not learn to be parents. Kids imitate.
There is a mindset that needs to be changed vis-à-vis the parenting and the grandparenting of our people as well. Not all of them, because some of the people came out of it quite well, but many of them, because they were raised in an institutional environment that was immaculate and that had to be kept immaculate, want their children to be just so. That is how they were trained — not so much trained as that was the model they saw.
I do a lot of fifth steps, as I said, and not only with native people, but anyone who has a problem. There has to be a time in our lives when we say, ``From this moment on, I am responsible for whom I am. From this moment on, I am going to learn from my past.'' We have to learn to say, ``I am going to learn from what happened to my mother, my father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather.'' The good thing about today's society is that we are talking about these things. They are not hidden away.
There are young families, young parents, who are eager to learn better skills and better ways. There are programs out there, but they have a lot of responsibility at home and often cannot afford to take the programs. They often do not have a lot of food at home, and we are not allowed to feed them. We cannot give them any food. We have to do a lot of manoeuvring to make sure they get fed. Our kids have to be fed. Kids cannot learn on an empty stomach.
We need to work with the parents. A lot of young kids are having children. We have got to help them. There are babies having babies. We have to do something to help them as well.
I go back to the notion of being proactive, so that our little ones do not become what we are reacting to. We may not have all the answers today, but we have to do more proactive work, so that we will not have to do so much reaction. I hope that helps.
Ms. Jacobs: I just wanted to add something here. Colonization was really about mass wounding, and I think every nation in the world has probably experienced colonization. Ours is still an issue, because it was so recent.
Therefore, what we ask in our schools, and probably what we should ask of other Canadians and Canadian institutions, like education and children's services and justice, is to be in relationship but to let us have a say in what that relationship looks like. We love Canada. We are on the right track. There are a lot of good things happening out there. If we can commit to the rhythm of that relationship — let us have a hand in what the what looks like and how it is designed, then the ownership that he is talking about, we will own what we create and design.
Senator Pearson: I like your expression about learning to commit to the rhythm of relationships. After 51 years with my husband, I think we have both learned, rocky but rhythmic.
Rev. Holland: The reason you get married and the reason you stay is sometimes two different reasons.
Senator Sibbeston: I could say something about the residential schools, because I was in a residential school for 12 years.
I think what you do is really positive. There is a lot of optimism for the future.
Senator Carney: I think we should be careful about not stereotyping issues like residential schools. A lot of people I know say that, in the absence of residential schools, they would have received no education. For many of them, because they did get that education, they became teachers, lawyers, engineers, jet pilots, and so on.
My point is the picture of institutions we are given is not necessarily reflective of some of the positive aspects that I know happened in British Columbia.
The Chairman: On behalf of the committee, I wish to thank you very much for your appearance here, Father Jim and Ms. Jacobs.
Our next witness is Ms. Bronwyn Shoush.
Ms. Bronwyn Shoush, Director, Aboriginal Justice Initiatives Unit, Alberta Justice: I appreciate the opportunity to meet with you.
I am the first person in my family to get a university degree, and I did that quite awhile ago. My degree is in chemistry. When I finished my degree, I went travelling. My original plan was to travel for a few months, but I ended up staying away for 11 years – every parent's worst nightmare. I worked abroad. I worked in London and in the Persian Gulf for a number of years. Hence, some of the experiences I talk about today may be similar to the things I experienced living in the Persian Gulf.
I eventually back to university and got a law degree. I completed that in 1991. I focused on constitutional law, on federalism, on Aboriginal and treaty law. I did a lot of speaking on national unity and what we need to do as Canadians to keep our country together, how we have to find ways to include each other and have relationships with each other.
Following Father Jim is a hard act to follow. He is absolutely wonderful, and as is Heather.
I hope you will bear with me. Although I am the director of the Aboriginal Justice Initiatives Unit for Alberta Justice and Solicitor General, I do not claim to speak for the Province of Alberta. That is something that ministers o do. However, they are aware and have agreed that I could come here. I am also an advisory board member of the Institute of Aboriginal Peoples' Health, which is one of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research.
When I was initially asked to meet with you, I understood that I was going to be speaking on some of the health issues. Bear with me if I go in that direction.
The Chairman: That is good.
Ms. Shoush: I believe very much the statements that were made by earlier speakers about relationship building being a very important part of how we are going to work with Aboriginal people, whether it is rural, remote, or urban. I understand that we are being asked to address issues affecting urban Aboriginal youth, and I will try to address that in the urban context.
A couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to travel throughout the province with the Alberta Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, when the government was developing its Aboriginal policy framework. I have a copy of that policy framework with me today, and I shall leave it with you.
We did consultations in many communities. The communities identified priorities. They wanted better participation in the economy. So economic participation was the top priority. Next, they wanted infrastructure and services available in their communities in the same way they are available elsewhere. They wanted to have clarification of roles and responsibilities of governments, and of their own communities as well. We thought that was quite interesting, because the communities did not raise the issue of further social programs. They wanted to find ways to become active participants in the economy of province. So they were not looking for other kinds of programs.
Following that, the Government of Alberta adopted an Aboriginal policy initiative. It is a cross-ministry priority, one of four the government has. Goal No. 6 of the government is that the well-being and self-reliance of Aboriginal people will be comparable to that of other Albertans. All departments are involved in it. All deputy ministers have responsibilities in that regard.
We held further consultations with the communities, with the Metis settlements, the Metis people in Alberta, each of the treaty levels, Treaty 6, 7, and 8, and they helped us identify some goals and targets. There were health targets and learning targets. They thought we would be able to make progress on the economic side if we find ways to have Aboriginal people become better learners, take advantage of learning opportunities, if we can have programs that are meaningful to Aboriginal people. Health targets were identified to find ways to take better care of children and our elder population.
The process has been a very interesting one. I have been very closely involved with it. Alberta Justice, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, and Children's Services are the ministries responsible for leading this. They have identified a couple of bureaucrats to be involved in that, and I am one of them. Hence, I have been involved in many meetings over the last several years and am witnessing first-hand how different departments are learning to work together. It is a very interesting process.
I am sure it is the same at the level of the federal government, as well, trying to find ways to move outside the silos and have people weave their work together, make it work for the people who are going to benefit or should benefit from it.
We are doing the same thing in the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. I have been very involved in a number of their committees. Through the Institute of Aboriginal Peoples' Health, we have identified that mental health and addiction issues are extremely important to Aboriginal people. We need to find a way to assist communities who have individuals in them who are facing a number of challenges.
As well, we see violence, domestic violence and violence on the street. There is the full range of family violence, and it affects everyone, children, women, men, elders.
I have had a chance to work with the Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction, in trying to find a research initiative they could undertake that would include community-based research practices. Scientists would work with communities to determine what questions need to be answered, and then together they could go about finding solutions to the issue or issues that are identified. So we are looking very closely at community-based research initiatives.
I am also involved in the ethics component of research. As such, I am a member of the ethics advisory board for the CIHR. We are pushing very hard for an ethics policy that will take into account Aboriginal world views in the development of research and in the provision of health services for Aboriginal people. It is important for governments, provincial, federal, wherever they are, to understand that there is more than one world view in approaching an issue, a problem, or an opportunity. Aboriginal people look at issues in a holistic way.
Using just a medical model to address a problem may not produce the hoped-for results. Researchers must look at all issues, from a safe home and school environment to support for all the family members that might live in home, whether they are elders, mothers, fathers.
We have advised them that these are the kinds of issues they need to look at, that they should resist the temptation to follow strict medical models in helping Aboriginal people address the complex health issues they face.
The same thing is true of the learning environment — and I believe the previous speakers agree with me on this. The learning environment must take into account all aspects of a child's life. It is important to understand that the child may be coming from a home where there is no structure, where the child is not being fed breakfast before school, where there is no bedtime routine or homework routine. Learning has got to be a key of this.
From my own experience, if Aboriginal people are going to change their place in society, one of the ways it will happen is through learning. There are other ways. We will begin to see other people, people who have influence, start opening doors, including Aboriginal people. Aboriginal youth would benefit greatly from a circle of support, through their early life and their school years. They need to have people to turn to, people that are able to help them.
I grew up in Jasper Place, and I did not have parents who knew influential people. However, when I went to university, I learned how to build relationships with people through sport. I joined competitive teams. I was a Canadian swimming champion. There were three other Aboriginal people while I was there — Willie Littlechild was another — who became national champions in a team sport. Our involvement in sport allowed us to build leadership skills; it allowed us to work in a team, to reach out to other people and to build networks. I see that as a real gap for young people today.
I had a wonderful opportunity earlier this year to participate in Crossroads 2002. It was a retreat for Aboriginal women and girls and other women and young women. Some influential Edmonton women came out and spent three days at the retreat. It was a wonderful opportunity for Aboriginal women and young students to witness how it is that we can establish a relationship that will last. We are not talking about a relationship that will last for the weekend only. We are talking about finding ways to work together, agreeing we will work together, and following the young people we are interested in helping.
This weekend I am doing the same thing with some young people who are interested in following health careers, at the University of Alberta. The young people will get a chance to talk to people. They will be encouraged to take university courses that will allow them to gain access to that health careers program. That would entail disciplining oneself, taking the sciences and all the prerequisites, whatever one has to do to face that challenging course.
Senator Sibbeston: You have talked about the government's activity with respect to Aboriginal issues or initiatives. You have given us a summary, a synopsis, of the way the Alberta government is attempting to deal with Aboriginal people. It is good to learn that the Alberta government is taking Aboriginal people seriously, that it is putting in place effective programs, and with a particular emphasis on health.
Ms. Shoush: Right. Health is an area in which I volunteer. I participate on the CIHR board, and a number of the other boards, as a volunteer. I am doing that on my own time. We have identified that holistic approaches to health issues are very important.
In February, I attended a six-day conference in Bangkok, where I was asked to speak on the impact of violence on Aboriginal people, how it affects the determinants of health. It was framed in the context of violence in the family home, but violence as in armed conflict, terrorism, those kinds of security issues. There were a number of breakout sessions, many speakers and many symposia. It was very interesting to discover what the people identified as their priorities in terms of health, because many people would not think that those are health issues.
Violence was identified as the top priority; the second priority was mental health issues, and addiction was the third. This was determined by evaluating the more than 600 people who attended the meeting; evaluation forms had to be completed. Other issues that were identified concerned HIV/AIDS and food security. However, health issues were identified as significant, issues such as diabetes and tobacco control. I did not expect this. I had no way of knowing what would come out of that.
Senator Sibbeston: May I just ask you, then, in the area of justice, is the Alberta government committed to alternative justice for Aboriginal people, circle sentencing, for example, which has begun to make real progress amongst Aboriginal people?
Ms. Shoush: Yes. The Alberta government, through the Alberta solicitor general, has worked with communities to establish over 90 youth justice committees. This program won the gold medal from the Canadian public services association this year. There was rigorous competition from across Canada on a very wide range of issues, and the youth justice committees came out on top. They chose that program as one that ought to be emulated across the country.
I have a wonderful job. I really like it. I get to go out to communities and work them to help identify the issues they think need attention.
Today, I was talking with a couple of communities that want attention on prescription drug abuse, and we have agreed to find a way to work together with people who provide services in the geographic location where the community is affected. I think the way we approach working or developing Aboriginal justice initiatives is by working with the communities and letting them come up with the issues that they want to address and then doing that.
We have not met with success when we leave the communities out of the decision-making processes. Neither has it worked when agencies have come to us and said, ``We have a plan. If you will provide us with some resources, we will go out and do this for you.'' What we found is that we need to be involved with the communities in working with them and building partnerships and having them directly participate in the initiatives that will make a difference for them.
Senator Pearson: As you know, the Youth Criminal Justice Act will come into force on April 1. I sponsored that bill in the Senate, and as such am very interested to see how it is going to work out.
Someone told me that, in Lethbridge, many Aboriginal young people have been serving custody and that a lot of them are for administrative breaches. I was told that this is particularly true for kids who have FAS/FAE. There is a very innovative program that has been designed by a policeman, apparently. Do you know anything about this? It has something to do with a circle of care.
Ms. Shoush: It was developed by prosecutors, community corrections officials and by people from the Blood Tribe. The youth justice committees in Alberta have been in place — the first one started at Fort Chipewyan about 12 or 13 years ago. It was an Aboriginal concept that sort of spread from there. We now have youth justice committees in urban centres, towns and villages.
I believe I know the initiative you are talking about. It is one that involves a Crown prosecutor, police, community corrections, and people from the community working together with the person who is in trouble, to find a way to develop an intensive supervision program, one that will track the person, to be sure that what the person has been asked to do is actually accomplished.
We have the same type of thing — it is a wonderful initiative — at the Alexis court, at Alexis Nation, just outside of Edmonton.
The Chairman: It is closer to Whitecourt.
Ms. Shoush: Right. It is an Aboriginal court that has been providing services on the reserve for over 10 years, and the judges and the community work together. For years, the judges have taken what is referred to as their chamber days to visit the community and sit with the elders. They have talked to the elders about the justice system, about court procedures, about the law. In turn, the community helps the judges as well as the prosecutors to understand the culture and traditions of the Alexis people. The judges are provided an opportunity to learn about the social structure of the community. It is a very wonderful process.
The Chairman: However, there are a lot of pitfalls in that one, too. Nancy Potts is an elder there, and from sundown their doors are locked because the children run amuck. There is no discipline or respect. She is very concerned about that. I have heard about that from the elders there, as well as from other areas, where the youth justice circles are not working as well as they could be.
So we do have issues there, too.
Ms. Shoush: I agree with you. I have heard the same thing from the Alexis justice committee. They have brought this to the attention of the judges and justice officials. They have said that they would like to have a timeout place for the kids who are running around all night. However, if they were to do that, there is every likelihood that they would be charged with holding somebody without a proper warrant, that they would be doing something unlawful. They said they want to do things that will work in their community. They want some flexibility to make it work in their community.
So, yes, Madam Chairman, that is a very important point.
Senator Pearson: In anticipation of the Youth Criminal Justice Act, they have already closed two youth detention centres. Judging by what we heard last night from the young people, that the gang culture is enhanced within the custodial detention centres, the more kids we can keep out of custodial situations, the better.
The circle of care concept that I understood about Lethbridge involves more than a parole officer; it involves building a community that supervises the kids and ensures that they follow the provisions of their sentence. Under the new legislation, a youth may serve a certain amount of time in detention, but the rest of the sentence will be served in the community, and a process needs to be put in place to follow this through.
Ms. Shoush: If I could, I should like to return to a point the chair made — that is, the concern by some elders in the communities about how this new act will work, their concern about a young person's disrespect for the sentence he or she has received. A number of communities have told us that they think what may happen is that communities that do not have capacity are going to be expected to deal with people who have previously been held in custody or kept somewhere. These communities are telling us that they want to be able to move some of these troublemakers away from our community, at least for a time. They are telling us that, if a youth is being ordered to go to school, he or she will have to behave at school.
Senator Pearson: It is challenging. The choice is between putting them into custody, where they will learn about the gang culture, or finding a way to work with them in the community. It is a question of resources, as we know. The Youth Criminal Justice Act is federal, but the implementation and administration of justice is provincial. Also, while there will be money following it, there is no guarantee that the money will be being put into the places where it should be put. It will be important for the province to make sure the federal monies they receive are directed at these alternative measures.
The Chairman: Another point to consider is that the volunteers are usually elders, and as such they do not get paid. They live on old age pension. Most of them do receive CPP. They live very frugally, far below the poverty line. They do not even receive an honorarium, to acknowledge their participation in that.
Senator Pearson: Can the youth justice committee get together and discuss how to deal with these things?
Ms. Shoush: They are. There are ongoing long-term discussions.
Senator Pearson: Will recommendations be coming forward?
Ms. Shoush: Those will be coming, yes.
The Chairman: We discuss and we discuss and we discuss. It is time for action. There are several elders I know who would love to participate. They are frustrated. Many of them complain that the lawyers get paid well for their participation but that when it comes to them they receive no compensation. They say they are being used, that their recommendations are taken but there is never any compensation. They say they are lucky if they even get a cup of tea. The federal and provincial governments really have to really look at how to compensate the elders and the people working in these circles with these children.
Some of these children are very violent. If you punish a youth, often the extended family is on your back. More training is required. I have not been involved for some time — things might have changed — but I know that is how it was even a year ago.
Ms. Shoush: I am not involved in the training division, although I do have close links to it. There has been training over the last year, and it is ongoing as we speak. There are intensive workshops to assist communities in the rules that they are going to be receiving come April 1. I believe it is going to be challenging. There are going to be quite a few learning opportunities as we move through this together.
Senator Pearson: It is a new opportunity, but one that comes with problems. Other things come into play. There are issues of violence and mental health, and not just for Aboriginal communities but many others as well.
Do you have any suggestions about programs or ways of diminishing the violence that appears to be so unfortunately prevalent?
Ms. Shoush: Every summer I go to a couple of elders' gatherings. They are wonderful opportunities. I can tell you what they think would be a good thing to happen in their communities. Elders are asking their adult children to acknowledge that they may have some issues that need to be addressed and to become responsible parents. It has been very interesting to hear the elders say: ``Look, maybe there are some things you did not receive when you were a child. You may have gone to a residential school, or somewhere else, but you now have children of your own. You may even have grandchildren. You are not taking care of the children as you need to.''
The elders have been very blunt about the responsibility parents have toward their children. Parents are being told their children come first. They have talked to them about drinking, about being at home with their children.
Of course, these issues are not exclusive to Aboriginal people. However, the elders have been very blunt. They are also talking about the need for parents to guide their children closely on intimate matters, on being careful about sex, which is very difficult for Aboriginal people to talk about. Young teenagers are having children. They are not old enough to be parents. They have not even lived their youth yet; they have not completed their education. This is a problem.
Senator Pearson: Two things have struck me on the issue of sexual and reproductive health. One of them has been the negative side. We were told by a young man who appeared before us that many young women, in particular, do not even know that the term ``making love'' has anything to do with sex. He had been involved in a workshop, or something like that.
This means that, for those young women, there is a disconnect between sexuality and love, which implies, probably, that they have not been loved themselves, nor their parents, perhaps. Something has to be done about this.
In some Aboriginal centres, sexual and reproductive health clinics are being set up, where some of this kind of discussion can take place. This is an important issue. We must find a way to address it. The ideal way is to empower both the community itself and members of the extended family. If the parents cannot deal with it, then perhaps the aunts can. I am not sure grandmothers can.
The Chairman: That was the youth initiative in Calgary. The youth have empowered themselves to do that and to work together on this.
Senator Pearson: It is peer stuff.
There is clearly a tradition in which children are loved. Several of our witnesses have had their lives turned around by the fact that they have had children. I am not saying that we should raise the age necessarily; I am just saying that some of them are getting pregnant for the wrong reasons.
Ms. Shoush: AIDS is a serious issue among Aboriginal people. We must take steps to protect young people. There appears to be a reluctance on the part of Aboriginal people to agree that it is a serious issue and one that needs attention.
The Chairman: There is the Two Spirit club in Calgary. We have heard about this in Toronto, as well. We did not hear much about it in Vancouver, but in Toronto and especially Calgary they have taken an active role in discussing the issues surrounding two spirits, HIV/AIDS, teenage pregnancies, and other sexuality issues. It might be a good thing to check in with that group in Calgary.
Ms. Shoush: I am aware of it. There are a number of other initiatives going on across Canada that are being funded by research grants. The Institute of Aboriginal Peoples Health is funding some of them. It is a way to get communities involved in discussing these issues, to develop a community-based approach to addressing it.
Senator Pearson: You speak about the rate of HIV/AIDS. I know that there is research that suggests that in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside the HIV/AIDS rates are as high as they are in some of the African countries.
Ms. Shoush: Yes. It is a very worrying prospect that our Aboriginal people will be decimated by this condition. It is an urgent matter. We need to find ways to protect people as they move from childhood to youth, the point at which they become interested in sex. We need to find ways to ensure that they are aware and protected from the risks that could harm them.
Senator Pearson: We did not ask our education people here if they were running AIDS-awareness clinics in their schools. Do you know?
Ms. Shoush: I believe some of the junior high schools are talking about sexual health. I am not sure whether AIDS is brought into the discussion at that point, however, or whether it is left to the high school curriculum. However, there are programs for introducing sexual health. I do not know how much kids get out of that kind of learning opportunity in school. I think the peer approach would be better.
When I was in high school, when I was 14 we had the 20-minute talk about menstruation. The boys were moved to another class. That was about it.
Senator Pearson: They also talked about sexually transmitted diseases, but it was pretty clinical.
Ms. Shoush: Yes, very clinical. It was something that you did not think about again.
Senator Pearson: In this country, we must deal with this issue. It is not exclusive to the Aboriginal community.
Ms. Shoush: The rates are disproportionately high among Aboriginal people. That is one of the issues we need to help our young people with, both in urban and rural centres.
The Chairman: I should like to thank you very much for your attendance.
We will now hear from Debbie Coulter from the Edmonton Aboriginal Affairs Committee and Lewis Cardinal from the same committee.
Mr. Lewis Cardinal, Chair, Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee, City of Edmonton: Yes. I would like to introduce Mr. Robb Campre. He is also a member of the Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee.
I would like to bring greetings from the Edmonton Aboriginal Urban Affairs Committee. I would like to express our gratitude for the opportunity to present to you some of our important issues. The Urban Affairs Committee is focusing on youth as one of its primary strategic areas for this year. As a part of the process within our Aboriginal traditions, we have subcommittees that are looking after our key strategic areas, and in this situation, we decided that we would ask the youth subcommittee of the Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee to present on the issues of youth for the senate hearings.
The Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee started seven years ago. Every year we try to work with our community partners on issues and concerns that can be brought forward to the city council and mayor. We also bring concerns or questions from the city council and mayor to the Aboriginal communities. Therefore, we are a facilitation committee.
We have 16 members representing a good cross-section of the Aboriginal community in the city of Edmonton. We work to facilitate and act as a catalyst for change within the city of Edmonton. Without further adieu, I would like to introduce Debbie Coulter, who will present for the standing committee.
Ms. Debbie Coulter, Member, Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee, City of Edmonton: I have put together an outline of issues based on the letter of invitation that we received.
The first item was identifying key issues. There are so many key issues that we just boiled them down to major topic areas. The first one, of course, is poverty. Our youth are in dire need of funds or employment.
Discrimination is another issue. Our youth are discriminated against on a daily basis. One of our youth subcommittee members works at the Nechi Training, Research & Health Promotions Institute. They work with alcohol and drug abuse. He also heads the Two Spirit organization here in the city.
Another major concern for us is gangs: crime and criminals and the culture that criminality has taken in the Aboriginal culture — the rights of passage that young boys meet by going to jail.
There are not enough programs targeted specifically at youth. There is not enough recreational space. There is a major lack of parental role models and good parenting practices.
Factors that we have identified that contribute to these problems include the high percentage of Aboriginal youth in urban areas. I have brought with me a copy of ``The Urban Aboriginal People in Western Canada: Realities and Policies'' that was published by the Canada West Foundation. Their statistics indicate that the urban Aboriginal population in the western provinces is 65.2 per cent of the whole population. I have included this in the package.
I have also included a PowerPoint presentation on the Edmonton Aboriginal Urban Affairs Committee that I was hoping to use this afternoon, but we do not have the computer going. Maybe they can print that out for you later.
The Chairman: We could probably do that on Tuesday when we get back to Ottawa.
Ms. Coulter: Another factor contributing to key issues is the media focusing on negative information regarding Aboriginal youth. On average, two out of three times you hear negative things about the youth. There is a lot of stereotyping of our youth in this city. Parents are struggling with their own issues and there is the fact that elders and youth are disconnected.
You asked about programs and services. The Edmonton Aboriginal Urban Affairs Committee put together a booklet titled, ``Programs and Services for Aboriginal Edmontonians,'' which I have included in the package. It outlines all of the programs and services that we have confirmed are available to Aboriginal youth.
There are gaps in those services, including: transitional supports for youth in care; an overloaded existing services; a shortage of trained Aboriginal youth workers; and a shortage of sustainable ongoing funding for youth programs under services. There is also a shortage of programs for disabled Aboriginal youth and the lack of information about the disabilities that our Aboriginal people are working with.
You have asked for service statistics. We have included a copy of the Edmonton social release plan, which includes statistics from 1996. They highlight the fact that the population of Edmonton Aboriginal population only forms about 4 per cent of the entire population. Then, further on, it shows that Aboriginal children in care comprise 42 per cent of the children in care in Edmonton, and 46 per cent are the child protection cases. Even if we have such a low percentage of Aboriginal people in the city, they are very over-represented in the systems.
Most Aboriginal youth-oriented funding is project based, which does not allow for long-term development or support such as the UMAYC funding. That is very good funding but it is not sustainable.
Mr. Robb Campre, Director, Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee, City of Edmonton: I will give you a brief history of myself and what led me into getting involved with Aboriginal issues — specifically Aboriginal youth.
I am a First Nations band member from Fort McKay. I grew up in the Edmonton area — in the Beverly area, which is a high transient area, faced with a lot of poverty and crime. One of the things that kind of kept me in the straight and narrow was being involved in sports, recreation. I think if I did not have that outlet, I do not think I would be sitting here today talking to you. I may be one of those statistics that we very commonly hear of today.
I wanted to get involved with youth and try to get some programs and services that would get more Aboriginal youth participating in positive recreation activities. I see the kids have great abilities, but they are not participating in mainstream sports in the numbers that non-Aboriginal kids are. I wonder why there is that barrier.
I would suggest some of the contributing factors to this barrier are transportation, equipment and registration costs. I find those are some of the leading reasons the kids do not get involved in these activities. It is tough when the families are having difficulty just putting food on the table — they cannot allocate family funds for recreation activities.
In the last couple of years, I have taken roughly 300 kids to Sports Central to get equipment. I would say 85 per cent of these kids are Aboriginal youth. I coach a couple of teams. These kids are now participating in something positive and active. I can cite a few examples.
The Chairman: Robb, would you mind explaining to the other senators what Sports Central is?
Mr. Campre: Sports Central is an organization that was set up to distribute sport equipment to kids and families that did not have the opportunity to access equipment. It is a volunteer organization. They get 100 per cent of their funding through donations and such. They distribute not only in Edmonton, but all over northern Alberta and into the territories as well, including the new territory of Nunavut.
As an example of a positive story through sports activities, there is one kid on my team who comes from a single- parent family with four boys. He is 13 years old and the youngest member of the family. His older brothers are involved in the gang side, unfortunately. His focus has been playing hockey the last three years. I have encouraged him to volunteer and then to start refereeing. Now he not only plays hockey, but he volunteers and referees as well. He gets paid to referee.
All of this has been on his own accord. Now he is trying to get a part-time job. He is doing positive things and has avoided getting involved with the things his brothers have.
That is just and example. If you can take more kids with the same disadvantages and get them into healthy recreational activities, I think we might see a drop in the numbers kids involved in more criminal or violent activities. As Ms. Coulter mentioned, there is an overrepresentation of Aboriginal youth involved with Child Welfare and social agencies.
Why has it come to that? A lot of it comes back to funding, families. Many of our families are headed by single parents. We have an exorbitant number of mothers who are raising their kids alone and do not have good support mechanisms in place to enable them to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. It is very difficult for them to get their kids involved in recreation activities.
Our Aboriginal youth have high dropout rates from high school. Only two out of ten are making it through. If they are not in school, they usually get involved with crime and other things that lead to that: prostitution, early pregnancy, and teen pregnancy. The statistics show that we have an overrepresentation in those areas.
There has to be some way we can curb that. I think, based on my own involvement with the kids in the past few years, that we can do it by helping families get their kids to participate in positive activities — namely, sports or cultural activities.
Ms. Coulter: I would like to talk about best practices. Some of the best practices that we have identified through the committee relate to a lot of the programs and services that are provided throughout the city. There is the Oteenow Employment and Training Society, which caters to Aboriginal youth. The Aboriginal career and employment centre is employment related. The National Aboriginal Health Organization is now instituting some youth programs that look very promising, although we are not sure yet how that will affect our Aboriginal youth.
There is the Aboriginal Youth Network, which is run through Nechi, as well as on-line reference sources and forums for Aboriginal youth. The Nechi Institute has some good Aboriginal programs. Of course, we cannot say enough good things about the Amiskwaciy Academy.
The cultural activities that go on at the Canadian Native Friendship Centre are very helpful for a lot of our youth. There is powwow dancing and a lot of other activities. The Red Road Healing Society here in Edmonton has a youth drama group that is doing some really good work keeping youth off the streets and focusing their energies into more creative pursuits.
The youth intervention program at the Ben Calf Robe Society is one of the best that I have seen. It operates out of the Ben Calf Robe School and includes parents and covers all ages right from pre-kindergarten to high school. They offer arts and crafts classes, recreational activities, and team sports. I know that the gang members who go there take their gang colours off before they enter the school. They have got a really good relationship with the kids.
Mr. Campre brought a paper entitled, ``Social Inclusion,'' which was developed by the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, I believe. I will let Mr. Campre talk a little bit more about that.
Mr. Campre: This is in conjunction with the Laidlaw Foundation. It is an organization out of Toronto that is looking at a strategy to make regional municipalities more inclusive. By doing so, they are trying to lobby Ottawa as a national coalition of regional municipalities for more direct funding for specific funds for that area. The municipalities are limited in their ability to fund such programs.
When they did the round table discussions, they went around across Canada and conducted various surveys. One of the survey questions was `` What would be the best means of funding these programs — municipal, provincial, or federal?'' the responses put federal at number 1; provincial, Number 2; and municipal, number 3. In response to the question, ``Who would have the best ability to direct those services that would best meet the members of the community?'' the results said: municipalities first, provinces second, and the federal government, third.
There is an imbalance. The federal government has the funds, but not the direct ability to serve the needs of those communities. Therefore, they are hoping to form a national coalition to lobby Ottawa to meet the needs of the regional municipalities at the regional level. This is the paper on it. It was put together by Peter Clutterbuck and Marvyn Novick. Marvyn Novick is a professor of sociology at the University of Toronto. The paper is well written and you might find it very insightful.
We had a presentation in Ottawa in December. We had the Honourable Jane Stewart there as our keynote speaker. She understands what we are trying to do and what that committee is all about. We have the support. It is just now taking it national to really bring it to work and go.
Ms. Coulter: There are a number of other best practices that are identified throughout the city. The Metis cultural dancers is a very good place — and one of the only places in the city – for our Metis youth to learn about their culture. There are also the Bent Arrow Society's social programs. They provide for the western portion of the city, and the Ben Calf Robe provides for the eastern.
Our youth subcommittee met recently to make recommendations relating to the funding needs and the involvement of the Aboriginal Youth. We have five recommendations to present.
First, that funding for programs targeted specifically at youth be increased in all sectors and that this funding be ``status blind.'' One of the major problems we find in the city is that Aboriginal funding is segregated by treaty, non- status, and so forth. Yet in the city, they are all blended together. To offer a program for only treaty Indians within the city of Edmonton is almost impossible; it just does not work.
Our second recommendation is to develop a comprehensive, coordinated approach to address the complex issues relating to youth and the law. Those, of course, take in the poverty considerations, the low education — all of the demographic data we have provided to you. It is such a complex issue. It really will require a coordinated approach from different levels of government, not only just within the federal government itself.
Our third recommendation is that social programs be increased in proportion to the population of Aboriginal youth within certain sectors of the city. We are now getting to the point where we can count how many youth reside in one area, so we have high population areas. The police, for instance, use that information to target their programs. We thought that might help.
Fourth, that the issue of urban governance be further studied and guided by policies inclusive of Aboriginal youth. This issue of urban governance is a major one for us. As the Edmonton Aboriginal Urban Affairs Committee, it falls upon us to lead the way on developing that kind of urban governance model. What will it look like? How does it work? Taking the differences in jurisdictions, and all that kind of stuff. Urban governance is a major problem for us. We have been struggling with it for a while and we could really use some help on studying that issue.
Finally, we recommend that the Aboriginal youth play an active role in the design and delivery of programs and services for Aboriginal youth. We found that peer supports work much more effectively than social programs in dealing with our youth. It has just been more effective that way.
Mr. Campre: In regard to funding, a lot of families have only so much money. When they are on family assistance, they are allocated so many dollars for recreation or cultural programs. Once it is used up, the funds literally have to come out of their own meal money. This creates a very difficult situation for the families to be unable to afford to meet their children's needs. I think there is a cap of so many dollars per year per child, which limits the ability for these kids to get involved. Sports participation can be expensive. Family assistance is not with the times; what they allocate is not indicative of what the true costs of the recreation activities are.
A few years ago, I was the athletic director of an organization called the ``White Buffalo Athletic Club.'' I was the athletic director. In creating the programs, we followed the input of a youth advisory steering committee. It was very beneficial to have the kids' input and direction of the program; it made it more hands-on for them and their involvement increase.
Senator Pearson: I think we are all interested in the governance issue. You are probably a little further ahead than we are. There are two issues of governance that have come up in our hearings. One is the issue around education. Should or should there not be an Aboriginal education board separate from the public board or the Catholic board. If so, how and what things would it cover? You might give some thought to that. I would be interested in knowing whether you have any Aboriginals on your city council.
One question is, ``how can you increase the political involvement of Aboriginal people?'' Another is whether it is a good idea to have a separate Aboriginal board of education. I have no preconceived ideas. What do you think?
Mr. Cardinal: The Urban Affairs Committee is a volunteer committee. All 16 members volunteer; there are no paid positions. Because of how and why we function, we have a non-partisan position. None of us are representing any political or treaty organization or any status organization. We are involved as concerned individuals from the common points of community wellness and ability.
In addressing the issue of urban governance, our committee is working towards helping influence the agenda at City Hall so that the issues can be brought forward and discussed. That is one way of getting to the issues that our communities need addressed and discussed over the course of the next little while. We do not see ourselves as an organization that would be acting as a representation of any political entities. The political leadership out there is doing that already. It would be beyond our capabilities to try to do that. However, if we can facilitate the agenda towards the discussion of these issues, then our communities and political leaders will have a chance to really engage in the discussions.
Most important for us is to have a community also respond to the issues. Sometimes, as you know, our political leaders do not speak for our people. Therefore, we should have a process for which the people can speak to the political leadership and the city at large.
Senator Pearson: You say you are volunteers. However, I presume that you are structurally connected to the city council. You do not just sit out here in left field and say, ``here we are as a committee.'' There is a structure that you are consulted with?
Mr. Cardinal: I think it was in 1994 when then-Mayor Jan Reimer had suggested an Aboriginal advisory committee of some sort be struck. Then it was formalized into the structure of the corporation of the City of Edmonton. When we select our committee members, each of the proposed members is sent before the city council, which approves the selections. There is a place for us. We are situated technically within the structure of the City of Edmonton. I think that structure there can support more of a communication strategy for this committee to do more in the areas of urban governance and Aboriginal voice.
Senator Pearson: Can you talk a little bit about the degree to which young urban Aboriginals can be encouraged to be politically involved? Is there any interest?
Mr. Campre: I can give an example. Last year our committee we endorsed a program funded through the department of Canadian Heritage with the UMAYC funding in conjunction with Amiskwaciy Academy, which is an Aboriginal high school. We endorsed an Aboriginal leadership, swimming, lifeguard program. It is a six-month program that will train and certify 16 Aboriginal youth as lifeguards, swimming instructors. Once they complete this course, they can seek employment within the City of Edmonton.
This holds promise over the long term. Currently within the Department of Community Services, 30 per cent of the managers started off as swimming instructors and lifeguards. Although we have some kids participating at the very low level in terms of the structural hierarchy of the city, it gets them in there. They develop skills that meet the city standards to be hired by the City of Edmonton.
With that, then, one thing can lead to another, and we hope that, in time we will see more Aboriginal representation within the City of Edmonton on the management side. Currently, 0.01 per cent of the City staff are Aboriginal. The representation is very, very low.
One of our committees is looking at developing strategies to increase the proportion of Aboriginals employed with the city.
Ms. Coulter: I would like to add that the Edmonton Aboriginal Urban Affairs Committee has a youth award that is given every year to four top youth in the City of Edmonton. That includes a plaque and a certificate. There is a selection committee for the top four, but all of the kids who are nominated get a certificate. That really does a lot. The mayor presents these awards and certificates at City Hall every June at the opening of National Aboriginal Day celebrations.
Mr. Cardinal: We are working towards developing an Aboriginal youth conference, or a leadership conference. We recognize that we are missing the voices of our elders and our youth. In this particular case, we want to help develop the leadership capacity of our youth in the city of Edmonton. The province, the city, and the federal government are taking interest in supporting our initiatives through the urban Aboriginal strategy to develop a youth leadership strategy.
Pending approval by our committee, we plan to commit two seats on our committee to youth members. In the interim, we will ask two youth to come and sit with us during the process until we can get it officially recognized through our policies. In that way, we can help work with the youth to develop a youth leadership within the city of Edmonton, so they can help lead other organizations.
Oftentimes our organizations — and the university is no different in this matter — tend to prescribe what is good for the youth. The youth know what they need and we need to help them create that process of addressing these issues directly to us. We can then take that direction and work with the youth on addressing their needs. In that way, we are enlisting the City of Edmonton's assistance in the development of an Aboriginal charter for the Corporation of the City of Edmonton. Eventually, we hope to see that Aboriginal policy as a mainframe — of course, being inclusive of Aboriginal youth within the process.
Senator Pearson: My other question is the one about school governance. I know that it is an idea that is out there. I do not know whether it is a good idea or a bad idea. You are from the education field.
Mr. Cardinal: When it comes to a government structure – as an Aboriginal school board – that discussion will have to be had by the political entities that are out there, including the treaty areas, Metis nation, the school boards, the province, the feds, and so forth. However, it does not stop at the creation of existing committees and councils that are talking about education.
This morning you heard about the Edmonton Aboriginal Liaison Council. We also have the Edmonton Aboriginal Education Council. There are different committees talking about issues in education. Those things are really coming out. However, there may be a need or a function sometime in the future for a collection of these voices to really address the issues of education.
Senator Sibbeston: You know the phenomenon of Aboriginal people moving into cities. Is that the sort of thing that your committee would deal with? I guess your committee gives general advice to the politicians in the city. You are the ``Aboriginal face'' of city government here in Edmonton. Is there an awareness or concern about the movement of Aboriginal people into the city?
Mr. Cardinal: Yes. In 2001, Statistics Canada identified 42,000 Aboriginal people within the City of Edmonton. That places us second as an urban centre behind Winnipeg in total Aboriginal population. By 2016, those numbers should go up considerably and Edmonton will then become the largest urban Aboriginal population in Canada. If we do not create a process by which our grievances, concerns and voice can be articulated to the City by the various organizations and community groups, we will have more conflict points and that cultural rub that sometimes happens with great population growth like this.
Therefore, we must be able to articulate and communicate a governance structure that would exist within the City of Edmonton structure in order to deal with these issues. Senator Chalifoux brought up the LRT this morning. That was a classic and example of stereotype, assumptions, and myth building.
There were a lot of agencies involved in the development of that movement at that time. We did not have anything in place that could immediately deal with that. The mayor called me to ask, ``What are you going to do about it?'' My response was ``What are we going to do about it?'' It was a question of how we would deal with it and develop a communication structure where we could approach these issues — especially in crisis situations such as that one.
We have to ask for calm first. Then we have to look at the issues and ask our community leaders to come and discuss them in a respectful manner. In this way, we will cover more ground and have more clarity on the issues as we move along.
Senator Sibbeston: When the Aboriginal people move to a bigger centre, it is usually because they have a job. Families do not just move from little communities and land on the outskirts of a city and look for a place to stay, and so forth. Jobs bring people to the cities.
I would imagine also that a lot of people come to Edmonton to look for work and improve their situations. I suppose they seek the services that are available in the city. The city provides certain services such as recreation and basic municipal services. Other agencies — federal and provincial — provide housing and social assistance and so forth. In that situation I guess the City of Edmonton is not totally responsible for the fate or the state of Aboriginal people, it is other levels of government. Do you want to comment on that?
Mr. Cardinal: Oftentimes we get caught into the argument and fights about jurisdiction. Who is responsible for whom? Our committee came out of that need.
Ms. Coulter: Along those lines, funding does not follow the client or the person. It goes to the collective. For example, the reserve gets funding to provide services for that individual, but that individual leaves the reserve and comes to the city and then puts an overload onto the services that the City provides. That is why we say we are so overworked.
Mr. Cardinal: Our committee, based on the good graces and the intellectual capacity of our committee members like Mr. Campre and Ms. Coulter, does not have the administrative support to facilitate even more than what we do. A lot of us spend a lot of time — hundreds of hours a month — just to commit to our community. We are asking for financial support, not for the committee's sake, but for sake of the administrative support around us.
We have one individual, Laura Auger, who provides administrative support. According to her job description, she is to provide us with only two days of support each week. That is eight days a month. Yet, she is the ``go-to'' person for the City of Edmonton; all things concerning Aboriginal concerns and issues are directly sent to her. Of course, she calls us and we all chip in. However, the responsibility and the tasks at hand are insurmountable with this kind of support. We need help. We need to get more administrative support immediately into our administrative structure for the urban affairs committee.
Senator Sibbeston: The topic of governance occasionally arises in relation to Aboriginal people in urban settings. That is a complex issue and it is not easily attainable. The city is not like a little town or reserve where there is an entity and a definite jurisdiction. How do you see that from your perspective? When people talk about urban governance, is that a realistic idea or possibility?
Mr. Cardinal: I think it is. It is a matter of how we coordinate the collective Aboriginal voices while respecting the political jurisdictions that exist — within Indian country and also within the various governments.
We are looking at a process of communication in which the coming together of these different entities can engage in some of the issues of the day. I believe that political leadership has the responsibility to carry out the political end of the arguments and that the communities have responsibilities within their own areas to look after what they need. That is why we have the agencies and the organizations that are in place now. They exist to respond to a need.
These voices need to come together. However, there is a disconnect between the agencies, the governments, and the people.
Ms. Coulter: The policies and the policy changes that we are trying to undertake at this time will lead to a form of urban governance as well. That is the only place we really have to start at this point. If we can effect change at the policy level, perhaps that will lead us to another logical conclusion.
Senator Sibbeston: As you say, there is no difference among Aboriginal people who come to the city — whether they are Metis or reserve status, they are all Aboriginal people all trying to survive in an urban milieu. Do you foresee that the most effective urban government would simply be of Aboriginal people rather than broken down into Metis and treaty?
Mr. Cardinal: Yes.
Ms. Coulter: Yes.
Mr. Cardinal: One of the questions is, ``Do we have a welcome wagon or a welcome cart?'' We will deal with that issue too.
Ms. Coulter: Again, too, the diversity among the Aboriginal cultures themselves would dictate that we would have to focus on the Aboriginal viewpoint, because we not only get Cree people coming here, or the Stoney, we get Blackfoot, we get people from the south, people from the north, Inuit. If we started doing that, then we would fracture ourselves.
Senator Sibbeston: I have some aunts here in the city who moved from the north decades ago, they generally kind of mind their own business. They are not people that necessarily want to come together every week or anything like that. They go to bingos. That is a good gathering spot, or else occasionally to a square dance at the Friendship Centre, so there is a chance for people to see one another.
The situation with Aboriginal people is tough because only a certain number of people that want to be identified. I suspect there are a certain number that want to live their own lives and do not want to be identified or recognized as Aboriginal people.
Ms. Coulter: That is right.
Senator Pearson: I am still on the governance issue. When we were in Winnipeg, we went to visit a very innovative and encouraging program that was run by the Association of Manitoba Chiefs. Does the political group run or assist in any of the programs related to young people in the city?
Mr. Cardinal: Yes. For example, the Oteenow employment training program, was established by the treaty areas, and ACES is the Metis component of that. Programs are being delivered. They are created by agencies that are developed by these areas. Yet we have to be careful as to where we cross the line into stepping into that political area.
Senator Pearson: I have noticed that you have made a few comments on that. Whether it is a question of communication or power, the common task is to improve the condition of Aboriginal youth in Edmonton and on all urban centres. That is what this committee is looking at. There is a role for the political organizations, as there is a role for the municipal government, as there is a role for the Government of Alberta, as there is a role for the Government of Canada.
Is there any coordination among these groups? If not, how could it be achieved? This is a shared task.
Mr. Cardinal: We tried that for about three years. It was called the ``Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Initiative,'' and it got bogged down on a number of political angles there. It was unfortunate. The potential was still there. The Urban Aboriginal Strategy is being coordinated through the Alberta Federal Council. They are looking at how they facilitate these kinds of things and support them financially as well.
Senator Pearson: I am assuming that eventually the demographics will drive that way. As more Aboriginal people live within the urban centres, the power will shift, although we may have to wait awhile for that. However, if you have any recommendation for us, let us know.
The Chairman: You have mentioned the media a couple. Has your committee ever met with the editorial boards, or would that be within your mandate?
Mr. Cardinal: That would be within our mandate. I believe we discussed that at the executive subcommittee, but it is something we want to bring back to the bigger committee first.
Ms. Coulter: We publish a newsletter.
Mr. Cardinal: We also have a Web site.
Ms. Coulter: Our Web site is attached to the City's. As to meeting with the outside media, to date there has been no such meeting.
The Chairman: That leads to my next question, about communication. You have raised some very, very interesting facts and figures here. However, does the general Aboriginal population of Edmonton even know about you? Do they have any connection with you? How does your connection with the community work?
Mr. Cardinal: Unfortunately, we are not terrifically well known as a committee. That responsibility, of course, has been our own. I think it has been limited by the small amount of finances to get the word out that way. Yet I believe we are generating more support from the community in recognizing our role. We have processes by which any individual community member can approach us through Laura Auger, or through our Web site. They can also come to our meetings and bring their concerns forward.
The Chairman: When friendship centres were established, they were needed badly. As communities have evolved and become larger, are friendship centres still as relevant today as they were yesterday? We have so many small community agencies.
If I lived in north Edmonton, I would not go to the friendship centre because it is not in my community. We have a little community agency. As the Edmonton Urban Aboriginal Affairs Committee, what is your feeling about community agencies? I have noticed that across the country a lot of people are saying that they do not go to friendship centres because they are too far away. However, they do go to their little community agencies.
We have a little Aboriginal community centre, and I go to that one. I would like to hear what your opinion is on that.
Mr. Cardinal: I believe that the friendship centres are as valid now as the day they started. They have an important role in the Aboriginal communities.
You have also pointed out that there is also a shift within the Aboriginal communities and agencies. Perhaps the friendship centres are at that stage as well. They are re-inventing themselves.
You are absolutely correct. I am starting to recognize that some of our agencies that deliver services and programs are functioning de facto as Aboriginal centres, drop-in centres, and so forth.
That speaks to something else. We are starting to recognize that Aboriginal people are not being ghettoized in the sense they are only in one part of town. If you have that, then you can have a centre that would serve them. However, when you have a diffusion of the Aboriginal community — not only geographically but also income-wise — you start to see the formation of smaller centres. There is a natural evolution occurring. Sometimes an organization needs to reassess where it is at, how it is delivering its services and how it is responding to the community.
The Chairman: Returning to the question of urban governance, what is your opinion on an ombudsman position being created within the City of Edmonton to address the issues relating to Aboriginal people?
Mr. Cardinal: I would ask, ``Who is the ombudsman?''
The Chairman: What is your feeling on the role of an ombudsman?
Mr. Cardinal: I think that an ombudsman is a good idea in that it would allow another level of communication. It would have to be developed from the Aboriginal community level. If we create this entity, then what purposes would it serve? What are the jurisdictions? What issues will it be mandated to serve? We do not want to reinvent the wheel and overlap responsibilities with existing organizations that are there.
The Chairman: We are really talking about the migration of people within our own country. You are saying that by 2016 the Aboriginal population will double. We are seeing that already, where the people are moving in.
What is the City doing to address the social support needs for the people moving in? Are the immigrants provided with any special supports?
Another issue the English as a second language, ESL, program. If you do not have a landed immigrant card, you cannot do ESL. A lot of our people do not understand enough English. What are you advising the city in relation to those challenges?
Mr. Cardinal: The Aboriginal agencies and organizations that support our people are not being supported adequately by the province or the city. They are unable to meet the needs of the people coming in. The staff are overworked and underfunded. Those things need to be looked at again.
We recommend a proportional amount of support based on the Aboriginal population. I think we can address some of this anyway within the Aboriginal charter with which we are trying to work.
The Chairman: Ms. Coulter, I know that you have been involved for a long time on the Aboriginal disabled youth. What is your committee doing to address this very serious issue for not only the physically disabled but also the mentally challenged disabled youth?
Ms. Coulter: As I mentioned earlier, there are very few statistics available to give us the background we need to lobby for programs and services for disabled Aboriginal youth. The only data I can find are for Aboriginal people with disabilities who are over the age of 15. Therefore, specific statistics for Aboriginal youth are nonexistent at this point.
That creates all kinds of problems. We do not know what kinds of disabilities that we are dealing with. Another problem is the fact that FAS and FAE were not considered handicaps under the definition of ``handicap,'' although I hear that is changing.
That would be one thing I would take to an ombudsman if we had one. The programs and services that are available for Aboriginal youth with disabilities are almost nonexistent.
When I was working with the Ben Calf Rope Society, we started one evening per week through the intervention program, and it quickly became overcrowded for Aboriginal youth with disabilities. At the community level, FAS or FAE — or whatever they are calling it now — is a most prevalent problem. Although the Aboriginal Disability Society of Alberta has been working to provide supports and programs, they are too limited in their funding and their abilities to reach that target group.
The Chairman: The sexual exploitation of children is one of Senator Pearson's priorities — in fact, all of us are very concerned about this issue. Edmonton has a very high population of sexually exploited children. Is your committee addressing anything like that? What is happening in that area there, do you know?
Ms. Coulter: The Edmonton Aboriginal Urban Affairs Committee has a member on the Safer Cities Initiative. I am the current representative. I have been bringing some of those issues forward through this initiative. I am working with the Prostitution Awareness and Action Foundation, whose director, Kate Quinn, works with the prostitutes and the sexually exploited.
We also have that new bill that apprehends those children and that is making a huge difference. We just had a report on that at our last Safer Cities meeting. Again, that committee is not really up to par on issues related specifically to Aboriginal people in the city but I hope to raise these issues through my involvement. I am making a presentation to them at our next meeting to bring them up to date on some of the issues and concerns from Aboriginal Edmontonians.
At this point, however, I am unaware of specific programs for sexually exploited Aboriginal.
Mr. Campre: Our committee has been involved for the last couple of years with the municipality's Aboriginal workshop. It involves various cities throughout Western Canada. We gather and share ideas and strategies on how we are doing things in each community and how things relate to each other.
We have been involved with it the last couple of years. In fact, we hosted it last year. We are going to continue that support in the years to come. It has been a key strategy to gather various voices and ideas from Western Canada within the Aboriginal community and come up with viable solutions to meet some of the needs within the municipalities.
We have met with Damon Johnson in Winnipeg, and he is at the corporate level within the City of Winnipeg. They have an Aboriginal Affairs portfolio. I could see something like that working in our city. Corporate managers tend to talk among their peers where there is a little more understanding. Coming from the volunteer sector, our voice is somewhat limited within the city. I feel that an Aboriginal Affairs portfolio established within the City of Edmonton might meet some of the needs and criteria of our Aboriginal community.
Ms. Coulter: They may be able to come to some kind of tripartite agreements to address some of the jurisdictional concerns for funding through an Aboriginal Affairs department in the City. We might be able to amalgamate all of that funding in that one spot, and that, again, would speak to the urban governance as well. We are lobbying for that.
The Chairman: I would like to thank all three of you very, very much. Your presentations have been very interesting and enlightening. It is not that late in the day that we cannot get excited about some of the things that your committee is doing — especially with respect to addressing the needs of the Aboriginal youth within our city.
The Chairman: Thank you so much for coming, Mr. Donald. It is very, very important that we hear about the cultural component and how it affects our youth within the urban centres, and what it has done to assist our youth to stay away from the criminal elements within the cities.
Mr. Lyle Donald, Coordinator, Edmonton Metis Cultural Dance Society: I would like to talk about the program at our cultural centre as well as a couple of other issues.
Our Metis Cultural Dance Society started in 1997. At the time, my mother, Georgina, had been with the Canadian Native Friendship Centre since 1963. Part of her mandate over there was to take on the cultural component and focus on the Metis traditional dance and culture. My dad was a dancer and all of us kids are dancers. My two sons and daughter — whom you see on the posters — are dancers. Those little ones in the front are my grandchildren. We have four generations of dancers within our family right now.
We feel that it is very important to pass on this tradition and culture, because there are hardly any more people within the Metis community practicing the culture and the dance. You have probably heard presentations across the country about the native language dying and how bad it is. That is also happening within our other cultural components such as dance and music, which are a big part of our livelihoods. I imagine the music will still go on, because we have a lot of fiddle players still around. Nick, here, is still practicing — so he is living proof.
However, the dancing has really changed a lot. Back in the old days, we used to practice and have a lot of competitions with our traditional dances such as the Reel of Eight, the Drops of Brandy, and the Duck Dance. These are traditional Metis dances that have been passed down through hundreds of years. Ever since some of the other groups started picking up these other dances, the fancy dances they do with their clickers and everything, it seems to have attracted a better crowd, so they have gotten out of the culture side just to get a better audience, I guess you would say.
We are trying to keep this traditional value in place. As I said, my mother started this in 1963. In 1993, she took an early retirement from the Canadian Native Friendship Centre. She was not ready to retire yet, so she told the centre, ``If I am going, then I am taking my dance group with me. I have had these kids for a long time.'' Most of them were her grandchildren anyhow, so one way or the other she would have had the group. They agreed to it because it was a part of the program that they did not want to continue.
When she retired, we did it independently through my mom's house. We took bookings and still continued. In 1997 we incorporated as a society. We got a few small grants out of the Alberta Foundation for the Arts and a few places like that. In 1998, the UMAYC program started to develop and they had some funds for pilot projects. We put together a proposal and applied for that funding.
Among Metis groups, we were about the only group that followed that practice. It was not easy to get the money, but we did have a bit of an advantage because we were representing an area that was not being taken care of in the community.
With our first little bit of funding, we leased a building. We found good place that used to be a pawnshop and we felt like we were at home when we first moved in there. Our kids took a lot of pride in it. They cleaned up the place. We had to redo the floors, clean all the walls and everything. It was our own building. A lot of the kids came out and helped with the cleanup.
I guess that is part of teaching, you know, is having pride. The kids had enough pride to say, ``Hey, we have got our own building. Let's take care of it and let's make it worth something.''
As we got a few more dollars in, we started the promotion side. Since my mother and I have started this, we have not been paid. We are not staff members, and we put a lot of our own time into it. The UMAYC program only pays for the youth worker and a finance person, because you have make sure that your finances are in place.
In the last presentation, I think I heard Ms. Coulter say that UMAYC is a form of project funding that is not long term. One of our problems is that we have to justify ourselves every year to get funding every year. However, I have to say that the UMAYC program did open that door for us to get started and do some promotions. It also gave us an opportunity for other young people to learn dance and fiddle.
We also started to share our building. There are a lot of other developing groups out there that need space for meetings and operations. We have been able to help a lot of other groups get established. We felt it was only right to share.
We have struggled with some issues in the past. One problem had to do with getting funding from the two cultural groups – the Alberta Foundation for the Arts, and the Canada Council for the Arts. Although our group had been together for well over 10 years and we had been travelling the country and promoting our culture, they felt that we were not established. In the ``arts community'' — whatever that is — we were not recognized as an arts or a cultural group.
We finally did find enough money through our program to promote ourselves properly. We made an instructional video on Metis dancing and on the music that goes along with it. At one time, those grants were only given to groups like the Gabriel Dumont Institute. When other groups were finally given a chance to put those kinds of proposals together, we made two videos that show our form of dance.
One video focused on the square dance and square dance calling. That is where people get us mixed up. A lot of people think that our kids are square dancers but they are not; they are Metis dancers first. We do square dancing. The old traditional square dances that we do always included a square dance caller, and we had our own traditional dances back then also, with the square dance calling were just for the Aboriginal community.
We also put out a cassette tape on the person that taught our kids how to dance. His name is Moise White. He spent 10 years with our kids — teaching them, travelling with the, taking them to different functions and calling the square dance. In 1998, he became ill. He has a form of Alzheimer's and recently he had two legs amputated from diabetes. Before the diabetes kicked in, we wanted to make sure that before the Alzheimer's progressed, we could make some recordings of his old square dance calls. We took him into a recording studio and we did that. We also made a video later that we could use to show the dancers while he was calling.
We have been travelling all over the country. Because our dance group gives lessons to members of our community for free, we are able to recruit out of our community. Currently, about 50 kids that come out twice a week to do dancing. On Saturdays we have fiddle lessons. We have about nine youth and probably about nine adults that come out. The ages range from six years to 62 years old. There is a lot of interest out there in both dancing and in the music.
Recently we were surprised to see that the parents of the kids who have been dancing have also taken an interest. They want to learn how to dance now and have asked for adult lessons. Because it is not part of the UMAYC program to provide lessons to adults, they will pay for them.
The great thing is that this shows that the kids are interested and that they want to take this home with them and then they get their parents interested. This has been a major achievement within our organization and within our community. We have always tried to include parents.
As I said earlier, our dancers have travelled all across the country. Because we have been able to promote ourselves, we are now and established cultural organization.
I would like to stress the importance of our culture. I will give you an example. Two years ago we were asked to go to Isle la Crosse in Saskatchewan, which was having their 225th anniversary. Isle la Crosse is the oldest Metis community in Canada. They asked us to come and retrain their kids who were doing all the other modern-day square dances. It was hard to believe that in such an old community that the older people were not helping out the young people.
On the first night, I watched the square dancers. They were doing all the old traditional dances and I could not see the need for us to be there. Yet, for some reason, their older people were not included and I guess opened a door for us. Maybe youth work better with youth. It was an odd experience — good, but odd. Our older people should take more pride in this.
I think one of the biggest issues that we do have in the Province of Alberta is the lack of prevention programs. We have tried to tap into different systems within the education and social services system from the cultural side. The province would not recognize a prevention program and they do not give dollars for that. They say that it is hard to see the change in the community. How can you tell if that preventive program worked? It does not matter what kind of stats we can provide them with, they do not know how many on the other side we are keeping out of trouble.
Ms. Coulter talked about our statistics and how many kids we have in care. I was a single parent for 13 years, and I also worked in the Social Services area as a family support worker. It is hard to make it out there without having a good support system. A lot of child welfare files would not be open if they had proper support in place for families. I faced these challenges 12 years ago. Can you imagine how difficult it is today with the cost of rent, gas and everything? It is very hard for a single-parent family to make it nowadays. There are many challenges out there and governments — especially local governments — have to be open to how they can help and support low-income families.
The UMAYC program was a blessing in disguise for more than just our project. There are 11 other projects here in the city of Edmonton — that means there are 11 other ones besides the friendship centre that are run by Aboriginal groups. That has given our people a lot more opportunity to get that extra service, extra help that they need in the community. I applaud Canadian Heritage for getting this project going. I do not know if Sheila Copps really knew what she did when she got this project going, but it has helped out the Aboriginal community a lot. I applaud her for it.
I only wish the province would complement the funding that other organizations contribute. The province will contribute funds for a youth worker but they do not support the administration to oversee the project. For my mother and I have donated out time for the past three or four years.
We have another problem in that we do not have any access to the Aboriginal Human Resource Development Agreement, AHRDA. The AHRDA funding goes directly to the Aboriginal representative organizations; a lot of those funds pay for top-heavy administration. We have not been able to access the exact figures because when you go to an assembly, they do not give you the full breakdown.
However, we estimate that administratively they are at about 42 per cent of funding dollars they are using. It is difficult to access the funding that does come down to the community because it is a political system. If you are not liked within the political community, you are shunned and you suffer. If you are strong enough, you survive, but a lot of people that are not that strong. They also use the funding to set up their own services that compete against other entrepreneurs — Metis entrepreneurs, Aboriginal entrepreneurs that are out there.
It is stressful to try to get by without being able to rely on support from your community. I expected the City of Edmonton's urban affairs committee to be more supportive than they have been. I expected we would have more access to city council. I do not mean to be critical, but it just does not seem like the message is getting across to city council about a lot of the things that are happening in the city.
Bill Smith is our current mayor. I like the guy very much but he is more focused on making a beautiful city. He is not focused on the social issues that are affecting us as community members here. We had a very strong community. A lot of our people like living in the downtown core. I guess you call it the inner city. They have been trying to move our people out to the different areas across the city, but they always end up downtown where their friends are and where the services are. We need a better voice here within the City of Edmonton. We have to let them know about some of the issues.
I am glad that the senate is going around to the different urban settings right now. I would like to compliment Senator Chalifoux and also the committee here for travelling around to hear so many different presentations. Sometimes it seems that our voice is only heard once, and if you only get that one chance, you have to try to get in as much as you can.
The last time we had a voice was the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, RCAP. That was about eight or nine years ago. We hope to get some better support systems in place — not only for the Aboriginal community but also the whole community as one. We have a lot of problems with Aboriginal people, but there are a lot of non-aboriginal people struggling out there as well.
Before I go, I would like to tell you about an event that is coming up called ``Fiddle and Bow.'' We put this show together last year to give our Metis performers across Western Canada a chance to play on a good venue. Last year we had it at the Alberta provincial museum. Senator Chalifoux emceed for us. We wanted to get our people out of the bars. A lot of the singers we have here play the bar circuit and have never played a proper concert hall.
Our fiddle players come from across Western Canada and from the Northwest Territories. We want to keep the music and the dance alive. However, the entertainers that we have all sing their own traditional songs that have Metis themes. We included them in this venue because some of the songs are so beautiful and reflect on the past. They also sing about the present. It is good to have that and give a little pride into our community.
We also have our Metis Fest every November in the week of November 16, the day Louis Riel was hanged. We want to show that no matter what they did to our leader back then, we are still here, we prevail, and we go on. We are a very proud people. About 3,000 people come to Metis Fest. Ms. Coulter was saying earlier that their council gives out some recognition awards. At our event, we have the "Louis Riel Gala," where we recognize two people that were a big part of our organization.
The first person we recognized was one of our dancers, a young fellow named Joey Gladue. He danced with us for nine years. He started with us when he was nine years old. He was a six-time Canadian dance champion back in 1999. He was one of the kids who took pride in helping to clean up the studio. He was so proud that we had our own place. In 1999, we were going up to a competition in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. He and his family left a little bit earlier than we did. On their way, they got into a car accident and he was killed. He had just turned 18.
We have talked about kids in education. Joey was 18 years old and he was just starting Grade 10. He had been out of school for a couple of years. He was probably the most polite and brave little kid around but he just could not make it in school. He was finally getting into a college that was going to accept him into an adult setting, which is what he needed. He was getting all ready to do that and died on the long weekend in September. His brother still dances with us.
Every Saturday during the Metis Fest, we have the Joey Gladue memorial to recognize him. We also have a scholarship under his name. The scholarship is dedicated to youth who are in high school. There are two $500 scholarships — one for a male and one for a female. It is to help our young people to make it through school, give them a little bit of help for clothes or whatever they need. The scholarship is not based on marks. The marks do have a bit of standing, but we focus on community involvement, volunteer time and so on. Joey was a very good volunteer. He helped us; he helped the friendship centre and a number of other Aboriginal groups. We recognize is the involvement part, not the educational marks.
We also have Delia Grey scholarship. She was an elder in our community. Delia knew the culture very well. She knew the people. She was a walking encyclopaedia of Metis. She knew all the family trees. If you told her that you were related to the Durocher up in Fort Assiniboine, she would name off all the people who were in the family. She told a lot of stories. She also knew all the old-time dances and all the old-time music. She helped our group out a lot. Our kids loved her a lot too.
Her family set up the scholarship through our organization. It was set up for single parents or kids of single-parent families who are in post-secondary education. We have been covering those costs out of our own budget that we have for Metis week. We do not make any money on Metis week, but we usually break even. However, we did not run the event to make money; we do it for the recognition of our culture, for Louis Riel, and for Delia and Joey.
The Chairman: It is so finish this session with a success story. Through all the struggles and trials and tribulations that your organization has had, it is good to hear a success sorry.
Senator Pearson: I am deeply committed to the importance of cultural expression for young people and think that it should be supported.
The Canada Council at one time had a strong program for children's culture but it seems to have vanished. For a while, Canadian Heritage was in the process of developing a program for young artists but it also seems to have vanished.
It is essential, not only culturally in the sense of the Metis culture, but also from the point of view of nurturing new young artists and the support and the audience that they need.
You obviously are an example of what can happen when you take up and recuperate a dance form and so on. You have obviously raised the whole awareness around it.
Although you have had a lot of problems getting the money, we would like to be able to cite you as a model. This should be done for a variety of different groups. Our whole Canadian society would be augmented if we can provide more supports for young people — both as performers and audience.
Mr. Donald: Exactly. We have actually acted as young ambassadors of the City of Edmonton for 16 years now. Yet the city still does not recognize us, although we do a lot of shows in front of city council and the mayor. Even though we do travel right across North America, there is no recognition at all.
Senator Pearson: Does Edmonton have an arts council?
Mr. Donald: Yes, they do. We have applied for funding through them three or four times. They give you about 3 per cent of your total budget. For the first couple years that we applied, I think we had a budget of $4,000 or $5,000. Even then, they turned us down. So we gave up. When you apply too many times, people encourage you to go back, but once you get kicked a couple times, you do not really want to go back.
Senator Sibbeston: I commend you for the work and effort and involvement in this. I cannot help but think that as a nation is healthy, so they dance. It is really true. Up in the north, as things were tough, they did not dance. Yet, as they became stronger, there was dancing. That is happening within the Metis and square dancing in the north. It is coming back.
A lot of little communities down in the valley have their drum dancing. The Metis square dancing is coming back and making advancements all along the McKenzie Valley. It is encouraging to hear the history of your group. They all look so beautiful, and the music is just charming. It is a sign of health; it is a sign of vitality and happiness.
We have had a little residential school society for a few years. For the very first time last summer, we had a dance. We say that this is a sign of our healthiness. We are getting over all the sadness and depression of the residential schools. I commend you.
The Chairman: You did not mention the influence that your organization has on the children. You mentioned the parents a little bit. Entire families come in from Lac La Biche — which is about two and a half hours' northeast of here — every week so that their children learn to dance. Mr. Donald's grandchildren are three and four years old. They love to dance. Their self-esteem is incredible.
It is not just bringing back the culture; it is bringing back our children. If it were not for the dance, Mr. Donald's own children could have been in trouble.
We are ending an on an upbeat note. I want to thank you very, very much. Not all of the members of this committee could be here. Some are back in Ottawa because the senate is sitting. However, every senator on this committee will know what has happened in Winnipeg, Vancouver, and Edmonton.
The committee adjourned.