Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 11 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, March 26, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:30 p.m. to study issues affecting urban Aboriginal youth in Canada and, in particular, to examine access, provision and delivery of services; policy and jurisdictional issues; employment and education; access to economic opportunities; youth participation and empowerment; and other related matters.
Senator Thelma J. Chalifoux (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we welcome our witnesses.
Our committee has been authorized to examine Aboriginal youth in Canada, in particular, access, provision and delivery of services, policy and jurisdictional issues, employment and education, access to economic opportunities, youth participation and empowerment, and other related matters. We have a very broad mandate. This study is an action plan for change. Already I have had interest from departments and ministers. They are looking forward to seeing our report so that we can assist them in developing policy to help our Aboriginal people, especially in the urban centres.
That is what we are talking about. Over 50 per cent of our people have moved off reserve and away from Metis settlements. They are moving into the urban centres. We need to look at the services that the Aboriginal agencies are providing. We want to hear about the issues and problems that you have as you work with the people in your communities.
[Translation]
Mr. Pierre Nolet, President (Region 3), Native Alliance of Quebec: Madam Chair, before I begin my presentation, I would just like to thank the people who made it possible for this brief to be produced so quickly and who were instrumental in my having this opportunity to appear before the Committee today. I would like to thank Mr. Hyppolite, Director of the Regional Reception Centre, and Mr. Lachapelle, my Unit Manager, for allowing me to prepare for this appearance and make a proper presentation before the Committee.
As President of the Native Alliance of Quebec for Region 3, I find it interesting that the Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples is examining the issues facing Aboriginal people living off reserve, and particularly in an urban environment. In the paper I have provided to you, it is mentioned that the Alliance represents a number of communities and a region which, in recent years, have pretty well been struggling to ensure their survival in financial terms, because these active communities receive little or no operating funds. For example, one community in Sherbrooke is surviving through genealogical research and funding provided by the provincial government. That particular community receives no government funding and has to be particularly ingenious and creative in order to continue providing services.
There are disparities in terms of the ability to provide services. In some communities, fairly adequate services can be provided through community presidents and individuals who ensure that the information gets around. In other cases, communities need some additional help. It is clear, then, that there is no uniformity when it comes to the provision of services.
I would like to turn to the issue of services provided to Aboriginals living off the reserve, and particularly to the various constituencies of the Native Alliance of Quebec. The NAQ provides housing services to disadvantaged people, there are home renovation programs, and we also have what is called the ``Weskahegen Fund,'' which is intended to help young Aboriginals start their own businesses.
In terms of job development, the Weskahegen Corporation, which is the Native Alliance of Quebec's services corporation, has received less that $600,000 over the last three years for development. The Alliance has helped some 60 Aboriginals find jobs. But if you compare the Alliance's funding with what the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples receives for the reserves and the number of people we should be serving, well, we clearly are not able to help many Aboriginals with only $200,000 a year.
I believe we are stretching those dollars to the limit. What the Alliance really needs is a solid base. I believe its precarious status results from the fact that the people running it have few financial resources and receive little training.
When you become president of a community, your training is essentially on-the-job training, and you find yourself providing the services and learning a great deal at the same time. Everything is done on a volunteer basis, because we don't pay people to do this work; people get involved because they believe in the Aboriginal cause.
If we want to do something for Aboriginals, we absolutely have to change things and ensure that the Native Alliance and the grassroots communities who are supposed to be providing services are really able to do so. That means having a solid base and an ability to fund programming and provide services.
I would also like to point out that as a parole officer, which has been my profession for the last 15 years, I had an opportunity to play a role in the implementation of Sections 81 and 84 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. The Regional Centre currently has three or four officers who deal specifically with Aboriginals. The measures that have been put in place are extremely effective. I believe it is vital that we continue to work with Aboriginals in the correctional system. They must not be forgotten. We have to try and provide them with the services they need and help them to be reintegrated into the community. If these people cannot return to the reserves and have to be reintegrated into the communities, we want to ensure that our urban Aboriginal communities are strong enough to look after them.
To summarize, I would say the Native Alliance of Quebec is surviving. However, it is difficult to attain the goals or answer the questions the Senate Committee referred to in the invitation we received. I have made recommendations with respect to financial and human investments. I believe these are fair recommendations that reflect current needs. If we can improve that aspect of things and support the human investment being made by those involved in the Alliance, we will be able to help young urban Aboriginals. That is basically my presentation.
[English]
Ms. Manon Tremblay, Coordinator, Centre for Native Education, Concordia University: Honourable senators, in my notes I have included an introduction about myself. I wanted to point out that not only do I work as the coordinator of the Centre for Native Education at Concordia and, therefore, take care of the Aboriginal population at this particular university, but also I grew up in an urban centre. I can bring you both a personal and a professional perspective on the different issues and problems that urban Aboriginal people face.
The Centre for Native Education helps our student population, from the moment that they decide that they might be interested in post-secondary studies, whether at Concordia or elsewhere, to ensure that their journey through Concordia or at other universities will be as trouble free as possible. We do not have formal services. We treat our students very much on a case-by-case basis. Although certain issues and problems occur on a regular basis, we find that it is not possible to have programs that apply across the board to all of our students. I have been working at Concordia for the past eight years. Quite a few things arise when it comes to post-secondary education for urban Aboriginal youth.
I put in my notes some quick facts that I gleaned from the Department of Indian Affairs basic departmental data for 2001 and also from the last Canadian census. It says here that 32 per cent of Aboriginal youth graduate from high school. This is across Canada. Some native communities will have better graduation rates; others will have very bad ones.
This document also says that, during the 1999-2000 academic year, there were 26,800 sponsored Aboriginal students registered in post-secondary institutions. This is not just universities, but also technical colleges, CEGEPs, any institution that is above a high school.
The post-secondary enrolment rate of Aboriginal youth between the ages of 17 and 34 was 6.6 per cent in 2000 as compared to 11.4 per cent of all Canadians. This means that Aboriginal people are going to university and other post- secondary institutions at half the rate of other Canadians. We also tend to be older than our Canadian peers. I say ``we'' because I am still in school. At Concordia, for example, the average age of our student population is 33, as compared to an average age of 26 for non-native students that is fairly constant across all universities.
In Quebec, 143 Aboriginal students graduated from universities in 2000, 22 of them from Concordia. Out of a total Quebec population of 7 million people, 143 Aboriginal students graduated. To us, these are amazing numbers. Every new student who graduates is a cause for celebration, but it is still so few compared to what we could be doing.
As I said earlier, I have been working at Concordia for eight years and the female-to-male ratio in universities has never changed in that time. It is always 75 to 80 per cent female and 15 to 20 per cent male. We can only guess at the reasons. There have been no studies on why males are not as interested in university as females. It would be very interesting for someone to look into this.
There are basically two kinds of urban Aboriginal people in the post-secondary sector. There are the people who are there by necessity; that is, they are coming to go to school. There are then the people who were in the urban area before they started school and will remain there because that is their home.
The two groups face similar problems, but also some different problems. I wrote down the ones that are the most obvious, the biggest problems. The first one is isolation. I cannot speak for every major urban centre in Canada, but in Montreal there is no Aboriginal neighbourhood similar to a Chinatown or a Latin quarter. Native people do not congregate in the same area. There is no sense of community, except through organizations such as the friendship centre, for example.
Poverty is a major issue. I believe Mr. Ravenelle will speak to that. The monthly living allowance that students receive — and I am not talking about the Cree school board because this is a different agreement with the province — is not enough to meet their basic needs. If we look at the figures that the Montreal Diet Dispensary states are necessary to meet basic needs — and we are just talking about food, clothing and shelter, not bus passes, the occasional newspaper or haircut — it is not enough. They are supposed to need at least $745 a month and they are only receiving $675. We have a problem.
At the post-secondary level, we still must deal with substance abuse problems, especially in our male population. That is one of the reasons why some students do not succeed and go all the way to earn their degrees. Housing is a major concern. It is the biggest concern for us at Concordia right now, along with childcare. In Montreal currently, there is a vacancy rate of 0.6 per cent for apartment units. All apartments are rented on a July-to-July basis. For post- secondary students who arrive in late August and September, that leaves very slim pickings. What is left is either a rat hole or extremely expensive, something that students cannot afford to rent.
On top of that, most of our female students are also single mothers. The vast majority of them already have children, whether they are 17 or 45. They bring their children with them. They must juggle family responsibilities with their post-secondary studies. Housing and childcare are two major issues in the retention of our students in post- secondary studies. As I said earlier, substance abuse is a problem for our male students. The single most common reason cited by female students who drop out of school is lack of appropriate childcare or housing.
For our students who have come to an urban centre recently and who have had most of their schooling close to the reserves, especially in the more northern communities, there is lack of an appropriate level of schooling to enter post- secondary studies. We have a phenomenon right now in Quebec where many of our students are skipping CEGEPs all together. They are completing high school, waiting five years and then coming in as mature students. That means that they are barely literate.
The students who temporarily live in urban areas also face other kinds of problems. First, there is culture shock. Often, our students are here for the first time. They have never been in a city before. They do not know how to negotiate a rent. They do not know what constitutes appropriate or affordable rent. They do not know if the landlord is taking them for a ride. They do not know how to budget or where to go for groceries. There are many problems.
Homesickness is another major reason why people quit their studies. They go back home because they cannot take the isolation and the lack of family support. Language barriers are very big, especially amongst Inuit students. It is not that they cannot speak English or French; it is more that they cannot write it. At the university level, this is a great barrier.
Once again, housing is a problem for all urban students, whether or not they have just arrived. Again, childcare is a problem.
Students who have lived in urban areas for a long time, as in my case, also have their unique set of problems, one of which comes up all the time. I go to many Aboriginal educational conferences and the single most important issue that comes up is language and culture erosion among Aboriginal youth who live in urban centres. If their parents came to urban centres, very often they cannot speak their native language and they know very little about their cultures; and they feel it. They feel as though they are left out. When they meet with people who know their culture and language, they feel as though they are second-rate Aboriginal people in comparison.
Poverty for post-secondary students is a major issue, even for people who have been living in urban centres for a long time. An additional issue here is that many of the education authorities have rules about who gets funding and who does not. We have a student from Nunavut who is currently in this situation: Nunavut will not fund a Nunavut resident who has been living outside of Nunavut for more than 12 months. The student I am talking about is 25 years old and lived in Nunavut for 24 years. She came to Montreal 13 months ago and was refused funding for post- secondary studies. With rules like that, you can see why it is difficult. Students cannot afford university fees on their own. If there is no willingness to help, they cannot possibly survive their university studies.
We have identified housing and daycare as the most pressing needs for our student population at Concordia, as well as a culturally sensitive curriculum.
We are currently doing something about housing and daycare. We have tabled a plan with Concordia University. I have not brought it here because it is still at the draft stage and the university does not allow me to bring it to outside attention for the moment.
We are looking at building an 80-unit apartment building for our students so that when they apply to the university, they can also apply for an apartment, even before they come to Montreal. We will have a daycare inside the building so that those students can also apply for a daycare space in order to have guaranteed daycare when they come to university.
We are also currently working on a 45-credit major in first peoples studies. Since honourable senators have already been in the West of Canada, this might not sound like a big deal, as all the other universities have this. In Quebec, it will be the very first university to have any kind of curriculum on first peoples. This is a big deal in Quebec, and we are getting a lot of interest in this program. We hope it will be offered as of September 2005.
Another issue that will need to be addressed is why males are not attracted to the university. We will have to do something about that.
The Chairman: We do have a big issue throughout Canada with First Nations curricula. We have been fighting on that for many years. Hopefully, when we join our voices together, they will listen to us.
Mr. Eric Ravenelle, Secretary, Board of Directors, Native Friendship Centre of Montreal: Honourable senators, I am a last-minute replacement to make this presentation. I am a 25-year-old Mohawk and I have always lived off-reserve in the Montreal area. At present, I am the secretary of the board of directors at the Native Friendship Centre in Montreal. I have been on the board for approximately three years. I am also the Vice-President of the National Aboriginal Youth Council of the National Association of Friendship Centres. I was the Eastern representative, representing Quebec and the Atlantic provinces, for three years. I am also involved in a variety of other groups, and that is where most of my time goes.
The Native Friendship Centre of Montreal is an non-profit, autonomous community development agency, the principal mission of which is to promote, develop and enhance the quality of life for the urban Aboriginal community of Montreal.
The number of Aboriginal people in the greater Montreal area is 44,155, of which 60 per cent are homeless. First Nations, Metis, and Inuit people who want to pursue their studies, who are patients in need of treatment away from their communities, who need respite, a warm meal or further training, come to the Native Friendship Centre for assistance.
A key issue affecting urban Aboriginal youth in Montreal is homelessness.
Another huge problem is health issues, including HIV/AIDS, STDs, hepatitis A, B and C, and tuberculosis. Tuberculosis is not prevalent in the rest of the country, but in Montreal it is getting quite serious.
We have low education levels, as Ms. Tremblay has said. We also have high unemployment levels, racism, discrimination, and a large sex trade in Montreal, which also leads to early pregnancy.
There are poor language skills. Many people are unilingual. People speak either French or English, or the language of their community, but not many people are bilingual or trilingual, which is a major problem in Montreal.
Poor life skills in general are a problem, as are substance abuse, physical abuse and sexual abuse. Mobility is also a big problem. When you come from small communities in the North and land in a large city like Montreal, there is culture shock and you do not know where to go. Some people do not know about the Friendship Centre so they get lost in the crowd.
There is a lack of culture, and many of the people who come from small communities end up getting in trouble and going to jail.
The best-practices policies and programs in Montreal are the Urban MultiPurpose Aboriginal Youth Centre, which is based in the Friendship Centre, and the Montreal Aboriginal Youth Council. These are the only two youth-specific programs in Montreal. There is also the Urban Aboriginal AIDS Awareness Program, the Montreal urban Aboriginal homelessness pilot project, the Aboriginal student services at Montreal universities and colleges, and the Aboriginal employment services, among others.
The barriers to developing successful programming include a lack of services geared toward Aboriginal youth specifically. As I said, there are only two in Montreal, which is not enough when compared to the rest of the country. There is no coordination between the federal, provincial and municipal governments to consider or develop policy or programs for off-reserve Aboriginal youths or communities in Quebec.
There are jurisdictional difficulties, such as deciding who will take care of whom. That is also a major problem. There is a diverse population among the First Nations, the Metis and the Inuit. Many of the cities in Canada do not have to deal with all three groups.
The annual funding cycle and the uncertainty from year to year is a major problem, especially for the Friendship Centre.
We have the Aboriginal Youth Council in Montreal, which pretty much looks after the Urban Multipurpose Aboriginal Youth Centre, UMAYC, by writing the proposal and implementing the program. The UMYAC also provides jobs for youth only. If you are under 29 years of age, it is most unlikely that someone over 29 will get the job before you.
Youth involvement on the board of directors includes myself, since I am under 29 years of age, and another youth sits on the youth council.
In the past approximately two years, our volunteerism rate for youth has increased dramatically.
I will speak about matters relating to funding access and delivery of programs and services. Year-to-year funding is inconsistent. It is the same problem every year. There are delays in the arrival of funding. We run a program that starts April 1, but only receive the funding five months later. It is a non-profit organization and we do not have a large line of credit to keep the programs running.
There is a lack of representation of off-reserve Aboriginals in decision-making within the province. Le regroupement des centres d'amitié autochtones du Québec is rarely consulted about any decisions in Quebec.
There is a lack of knowledge of Aboriginal people in general in Quebec. Many in the government know nothing about Aboriginal people. They do not know our culture or how we work. They do not know who we are. That needs to be changed.
The Chairman: Thank you, all three, very much. We have questions.
Senator Pearson: I am not sure where to start. It was interesting, as you spoke, to note the similarities and differences with what we have already heard. The similarity is that a large part of your problem is funding. Everyone has the same problem, and it is something we intend to take seriously as a recommendation.
It makes no sense to have year-to-year funding. If a program is promising, give it a chance. It also makes no sense in terms of those lines of credit. Governments can live on credit, but your types of organizations cannot.
There is probably something distinct here that relates to the entire Quebec culture. I am struck by your comment about the absence of knowledge of Aboriginal culture.
When we were in Winnipeg last week, for example, we heard about the degree to which everyone was beginning to pay serious attention to the Aboriginal population. It is partly a question of the demographics. Not only the municipality, but also the business community is paying attention because they see that this will be one of their sources of employees. Aboriginals are 20 per cent of the school population in Winnipeg.
You do not have those kinds of figures. It is a long, historical awareness, which has good and bad sides. Prejudice is reinforced by things like gangs.
We saw some promising examples and good things in employment. There seems to be a larger awareness.
How can you build that awareness? How can we help you? What would help to build that awareness within the Quebec culture?
Ms. Tremblay: The awareness of?
Senator Pearson: Mr. Ravenelle commented that decision makers really do not understand. Is it not high enough on the radar screen?
Ms. Tremblay: There is an ignorance about Aboriginal people in Quebec that is absolutely astounding. We face it on a daily basis, not just from the public, but even in places where you would least expect it. At the university level, for example, we find faculty are often ignorant. They show it by insensitive comments in the classroom. They use words to describe Aboriginal peoples that are clearly from the past and insulting. I still hear people using the word ``Eskimo.'' Tenured faculty are using these words.
Professors also use written sources that are insulting to Aboriginal people. Some professors use, for example, Thomas Flanagan's works to teach about Aboriginal people.
With these kinds of things happening, it is no wonder that people do not know about Aboriginal peoples. As part of my current work, I am doing an internship in a kindergarten in an all-white school. For the very first time, the Minister of Education has asked all Quebec schools to introduce a Canada component in all grades.
Although they can all do activities around beavers and Canadian flags and stuff like that, none of them know what to do around First Nations. They come to me to ask, ``What do I do? What do I say? What is proper? Is this right?''
How do we raise awareness? We are working on the post-secondary level 45-credit major. We will be encouraging people at the university who want to work for or with Aboriginal people to take a double major. They should take their field of interest plus this major so that they know what they are getting themselves into.
The courses in the major will be looking at past, present and future outlook. The courses on the past are about who we were and what our cultures were. The courses on the present concern what we are now and the problems we are facing. The courses on the future are about what will we do about that. We hope people will take this if they will be working with Aboriginal people.
Senator Pearson: Have you some ideas, Mr. Ravenelle, about what can be done?
Mr. Ravenelle: I have been trying to think of ways of educating people, especially government. Something happened in Lyon, France in the past week that I thought was great. There was a UN symposium on Aboriginal peoples of the world.
That is a great idea. You have a symposium where everyone gets to learn. It is an educational experience. That is the only thing that I can suggest for a large group of people.
Senator Pearson: You have had the James Bay Agreement and all of that in the public mind, whether it is good or bad. You would think that the people would have some knowledge of the implications for the Cree and so forth. There was Oka and all that. These all happened within the Province of Quebec.
Even we are surprised to learn how many Aboriginals are living in the city of Montreal. You are quite right. You never hear anyone in Quebec talking about what is happening to the Aboriginal people.
Perhaps there should be some recommendations about availability of funding. There is the new program on language. There should be something that enables your organizations at the university to obtain funding for cultural events to raise awareness.
Without that awareness, other issues take precedence. People will not be paying attention.
[Translation]
Mr. Nolet: At meetings of the last two provincial boards of directors, discussion has focussed increasingly on our visibility, which is one of the ongoing and major problems the Native Alliance of Quebec has faced over the years.
People have to realize that there are Aboriginal people living in Quebec, whether they have status or not. In the NAQ executive summary that I have provided, we show that there are some 23,000 Aboriginals with the Native Alliance all across Quebec, most of whom are Métis of Indian or Inuit origin. Five per cent of them are C31s and are part of our constituency. These people do not have status, even after 31 years of being members of the Native Alliance of Quebec. Negotiations with the Government of Quebec are difficult.
Hunting and fishing are also mentioned in that document. We are trying to make changes, but often we encounter problems. We are not well enough known. I would just like to give you an example, so that you will understand what I mean. My region begins in Saint-Jérôme and includes the Lower Laurentians, Laval, Quebec City, Montreal, the Estrie, Trois-Rivières, the Lower St. Lawrence and the Gaspé. That is a huge region.
I intend to take action to raise the awareness of our provincial politicians. I am going to visit all the provincial MNAs and federal MPs to tell them that we exist and ask for their assistance.
I will soon make a trip to the Gaspé. And when I do, I will leave business cards so that members in the Gaspé know that there is an office they can deal with in Laval.
I will also want to lobby the Member for Rivière-du-Loup and the next Quebec Minister who will be responsible for dealing with the Aboriginal people. I also intend to pay a visit to my federal MP. We have to go and see these people and increase our visibility. Aboriginal organizations have never really had a tendency to get out there and be seen.
However, if we want people to know about us, we have to be seen. Once we are, we will start to make some progress.
[English]
Senator Sibbeston: I am interested in knowing whether there is sensitivity to, support for or sympathy with the Aboriginal people in Quebec, because the French people have experienced a similar historical domination by the English. Amongst the French people in Quebec, is the fate or future of Aboriginal people promising because of sympathy with or compassion for the Aboriginal people?
Ms. Tremblay: My experience has been that there is no sympathy from francophones. This is the quarter from which we get the greatest prejudice. When we do get sympathy, it comes from the anglophones of Quebec. Because our university is multicultural and has many international students, we get a lot of sympathy from those international students. There is ignorance in Quebec that is very disturbing to see. Before I took on this job at Concordia University, I used to work for Parks Canada Agency. I was working in some of Quebec's historical sites as a student and we saw tourists from all over the place: francophone, anglophone and from other countries. What was interesting is how different elements of the population approach a historical site. Very often, francophone people would approach a francophone historical site and ask what is to be seen there. Anglophone people come, they know about the place and they want to know more. Francophones are just passing through and stop because maybe there is something to see here. That behaviour, which was consistent, also explains what they know about Aboriginal people, which is basically nothing. Their fear of us is based on ignorance.
[Translation]
Mr. Nolet: For the past four years, I have had the feeling that governments are ignoring our attempts at negotiation. We feel especially alienated from the Quebec government. At one time, the Parti québécois was saying that it accepted the Native Alliance of Quebec and that we were recognized. However, since that party has been in power, the Aboriginal cause has not really advanced very quickly.
In terms of my organization, the problem is the government, rather than issues or clashes between linguistic groups. We feel both alienated and dominated.
[English]
Mr. Ravenelle: My comment would be to agree with Ms. Tremblay's on facing the racism. If you ask almost everyone in Quebec if Aboriginal people are a minority group, they will say yes. Everyone views Aboriginal people as a minority group. We have been trying to fight it, but it still comes back.
Senator Pearson: Do they see Aboriginals as a third founding group of the country or anything like that?
Mr. Ravenelle: No.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: Mr. Nolet, do the three of you work together?
[English]
Do you happen to work together, the three of you, on different things?
[Translation]
Mr. Nolet: No, this is the first time I have met them.
Senator Chaput: I see.
[English]
Senator Chaput: Are you in different parts of Montreal? I do not know anything about the city.
Ms. Tremblay: Mr. Ravenelle's organization and mine do network.
[Translation]
In any cases, we do stay in touch and have many of the same clients. There are some services that we cannot provide our students, but that the Friendship Centre can. The Friendship Centre in turn refers people to us.
For the time being, the Native Alliance of Quebec does not have an office in Montreal, which obviously poses a problem in terms of networking.
Mr. Nolet: I would like to respond to that question and begin by giving you a little bit of background. Thirteen years ago, the regional office of the Native Alliance of Quebec was and had always been located in the Trois-Rivières region, and officers at the time were unilingual. Most of the people involved in the Native Alliance of Quebec don't speak English. So, this is a Francophone, rather than an Anglophone, organization.
I was elected in June, 2002. I moved the office here and had to reorganize everything. The 2002 Action Plan for Region 3 includes reactivating the Montreal community. That will be a challenge, but it is possible. That is where we will be able to develop linkages to various organizations, and that is definitely desirable. At the present time, every time there is an event in Montreal, they call the Hull office, which then refers them to us, for the entire Montreal region.
However, I have a job and work 37.5 hours per week. I volunteer in the evening, and I am alone. That is why it is so important to reactivate the Montreal community fairly quickly, so that it can take responsibility for meeting certain needs. There is work to be done. It will be interesting organizing that work in the coming weeks and months.
[English]
Senator Christensen: I want to explore the idea that the Quebec population does not recognize the First Nations of the area and why that is. Coming from the Yukon, where the First Nations people are very much a part of our community, I cannot imagine not recognizing or being associated with them on a regular basis.
Historically, have most of the First Nations communities been isolated from other communities? I can see it happening in a big city like Montreal, where there is such a mixture of cultures. However, are you saying that is the case all over Quebec, not just in Montreal?
Mr. Ravenelle: Yes.
Senator Christensen: Historically, have the First Nations communities been isolated from other communities, or have they been part of or close to them? I am wondering why this has or has not developed.
Ms. Tremblay: There are a couple of reasons. First, in terms of language barriers, we have communities that speak English as a first or second language, and that is half of Quebec. The other half speaks French as a second or first language. There is a communication problem right there. We do have communities that are extremely isolated and do not relate to others. The communities in Labrador, including the one that has just been relocated, are examples.
Even though the Cree communities do interrelate, they are far from one another, which is not the case, for example, for my home community, which is an hour and half north of Saskatoon. There is a big cluster of Cree reserves close together, so there is more cohesion there. The nine Cree communities in Quebec are all scattered, and it takes several hours of driving to get from one to the next.
Senator Christensen: They are isolated from each other and also from other parts of Quebec society.
Ms. Tremblay: Yes.
Senator Christensen: I would think that the preoccupation of many Quebecers with separation and finding their own ``identity,'' if you will, has turned them inward looking as opposed to outward looking and inclusive.
Ms. Tremblay: What is interesting is that in the fervour of separation, when the public has been polled — and it has been the rhetoric of the provincial government also — even though they give themselves the right to separate from Canada, they will not allow that right for Aboriginal people. They perceive us as a threat, specifically the Cree people, who claim that they own all of Northern Quebec with the Inuit people. If they recognize that right, it takes a huge chunk out of a separate Quebec. That is one of the reasons they do not sympathize with us on similar issues.
Senator Christensen: Mr. Ravenelle, do the Inuit have special centres, or do they use your friendship centre?
Mr. Ravenelle: There is an Inuit group in Montreal. The name of it has slipped my mind. Many Inuit people still use the friendship centre because the Inuit organization has not been around as long. The friendship centre is well known. Probably a majority of our clients are Inuit people. Every year it diminishes, but most of our clients are still Inuit.
Senator Christensen: With respect to the male versus female that you were talking about at the university, is that the same situation at the friendship centre level? Are there more girls coming there than boys, or is it the other way around?
Mr. Ravenelle: As of late, I find there have been more men. In the past, there were a lot of women. That is the thing with the friendship centre. Every season it changes completely.
Senator Christensen: There is a pattern because you see the women going on to secondary education, and I wonder if there is a pattern at the other end of the scale as well. Does that follow, or is there a switch somewhere and the women come from somewhere else? Is there more stability there?
Mr. Ravenelle: It switches from season to season dramatically.
Senator Christensen: Is there no pattern that we could try and hook onto?
Mr. Ravenelle: No, not really.
Senator Christensen: I have an interest is FAS and FAE. Do you see that sort of thing in the young people with whom you work?
Ms. Tremblay: We do. I know a lot about it because it was part of some of my own research at the undergraduate level. It is not so apparent in the city. One reason is that native people are not apparent in the city. Since there is no native neighbourhood and Montreal is so multicultural, native people blend in. The average Montrealer would be hard pressed to point out a native person on the street. We recognize each other easily, but people cannot distinguish between an Asian person and an Aboriginal person on the street in Montreal. In Saskatoon, it is obvious.
It is a big problem in Kahnawake. My students who come from there say it is a problem. Many babies are born with FAS/FAE. I have not seen adults with FAS at the university level, but I have certainly seen FAE.
Senator Christensen: Are there any programs in any of the First Nations friendship centres that help identify that? Is there anything in the school systems?
Ms. Tremblay: Not in the urban areas, but Kahnawake is starting something for FAS/FAE.
[Translation]
Senator Léger: Mr. Nolet, do you work as a parole officer in a correctional institution?
Mr. Nolet: Yes.
Senator Léger: Do you work specifically with Aboriginals in the institution?
Mr. Nolet: No, but for two years now, it has been possible to refer an Aboriginal inmate directly to the Waseskun CRC, pursuant to Sections 81 and 84 of the Act to promote community reintegration of Aboriginals. The Department is determined to provide better services to Aboriginals.
Four parole officers have been trained. Four have been given training on Aboriginal issues. We were later told that we would be dealing with Aboriginal inmates.
I currently work at the Regional Reception Centre which is where new Aboriginal inmates are sent. When a new Aboriginal inmate arrives, we do an assessment to determine whether the inmate should be sent to the Waseskun CRC, which is considered to be a minimum security facility, or whether he or she should be sent elsewhere, if there is a need for specific programming. For example, a sex offender would be sent to La Macaza.
Senator Léger: That is not only for Aboriginal offenders?
Mr. Nolet: No.
Senator Léger: I do not remember the exact numbers, but there are apparently a lot more Aboriginals in correctional facilities in Western Canada. Are we talking about a similar order of magnitude here, given that there is a small population?
Mr. Nolet: In Quebec, the only maximum security institution is called the SHU and more than 50 per cent of the inmates at that maximum security facility are Aboriginals.
Senator Léger: And what would the percentage be?
Mr. Nolet: It is more than 50 per cent, and I myself find that surprising. After 15 years of working in this field, I am realizing that rather than registered Indians or Métis, the Aboriginals having the most trouble adapting are Inuit, because of the language barrier.
Some of them speak neither French or English. They are a lot more isolated than the others, and it is more difficult to help them. Not all parole officers take an interest in the Aboriginal population.
Senator Léger: With that high a percentage, is there a lot of racism?
Mr. Nolet: I have witnessed situations where attitudes bordered on racism, but never anything extreme. Sometimes people tell me jokes, but I also see that there is a great deal of respect for Aboriginals. Every time Aboriginal inmates arrive at the regional centre, they are identified by Marc-André Laberge, our Liaison Officer, who explains the programming and everything they need to know. At the facility where I work in Quebec, there is good support.
Senator Léger: Ms. Tremblay, there should almost be something similar for teachers.
Ms. Tremblay: Concordia University is currently developing an awareness program that all new and current professors would automatically have to take. It would deal not only with Aboriginals, but all other groups that are neither Canadian or Caucasian.
Senator Léger: A lot of immigrants attend Concordia University. I was wondering whether you distinguish between Aboriginal nations at Concordia.
Ms. Tremblay: No. We do not name specific Aboriginal nations. In actual fact, our students represent some 26 different First Nations, but we only refer to them as Aboriginals.
Senator Léger: There is certainly no bad will there, because people do not even notice.
Ms. Tremblay: If we were to ask students or professors to name all 26 nations, they could not. They do not realize there are so many First Nations in Canada, and yet the fact is there are some 60 different nations.
Senator Léger: What should be done?
Ms. Tremblay: We are currently changing the terminology we use because the Aboriginal people did not choose those terms. For example, we know that the word ``Cree'' is derived from the French word ``christino'' which means children of Christ. We also know that the word ``eskimo'' comes from the Cree word meaning ``he who eats raw food.'' Mohawks are now called Gognankehaga. Not only are they not familiar with these terms, but we are in the process of changing them. That's why there is total confusion now.
Senator Léger: I noted that there is a tremendous difference between men and women, because it's 80 per cent in one case, and 20 per cent in the other. Do you have any answers to the housing problem? You said that Concordia University is in the process of building housing. Given that the major issue seems to be housing, is there something the government can do? Everyone seems to be saying that this is a major problem.
Mr. Nolet: The Weskahegen Corporation has been in place for 25 years in Quebec and manages approximately 2,200 housing units. I would agree that that is inadequate, but a lot of Aboriginals in Quebec, whether they are Métis or registered Indians or not, do have access to low-cost housing.
However, in order to build additional housing units, the Weskahegen Corporation needs to have waiting lists, and one of the problems the Corporation has encountered is that it has practically none. If there were waiting lists, the Corporation could build additional housing units. They are doing some building around Gatineau, but negotiations with city authorities have been difficult.
There is also affordable housing, where rents are below market prices. We want to build this kind of housing in the large cities across Quebec, because there is a housing agreement with the Government of Quebec. However, because municipal organizations are being lobbied, the project is not working. I should also say that the cost of land is one factor that is contributing to delays in the new housing construction project.
In Quebec, the Weskahegen Corporation is a national leader. It organized the last meeting of the National Housing Association in Canada and paid the cost. It is a very useful organization that deserves to receive funding to help increase its housing inventory.
Senator Léger: It is not surprising that people in Quebec know nothing about you. As Senator Christensen mentioned, does this not have something to do with separatism? As an Acadian, I know that Quebecers were so surprised and happy to find out more about us. We were already around, but I have the feeling it's the same with you. That is my understanding. I wonder if it is the same thing for immigrants coming in. That is probably something that can happen outside of Quebec as well.
Mr. Nolet: It is important that the Government of Quebec listen to us. In 1995, Mr. Chalifoux wrote to the Quebec Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs. He received an answer two years later. And I did not make that up.
As I pointed out in my brief, it is important that the Government of Quebec respond to the demands of Aboriginals living off the reserves. The government shows a great deal of concern for Aboriginals living on the reserves and even negotiates with certain nations. I consider that to be perfectly appropriate. But it is important that the Government of Quebec not neglect Aboriginal people living off the reserves.
There are some organizations that address their needs, including the Native Alliance. However, when we do come forward and make requests, it's important that they listen to our demands.
The issue is also a political one. Both the federal and provincial governments should be taking part in negotiations with Aboriginal people living off reserves. If the provincial government decides it does not want to negotiate, our demands go nowhere fast. We have to continue to use that approach. People have to see what is being done at Concordia and at the Native Friendship Centre of Montreal. Everybody will start to say: Yes, we are here, and here to stay — not aggressively, but in a constructive way in relation to everybody else. That way, things will move forward. Rome was not built in a day.
[English]
The Chairman: I should like to ask a question of Mr. Ravenelle and Mr. Nolet in regard to funding. Mr. Ravenelle, are you part of the National Association of Friendship Centres?
Mr. Ravenelle: Yes, we are.
The Chairman: How do you get your funding?
Mr. Ravenelle: For the centre?
The Chairman: Yes.
Mr. Ravenelle: For which project?
The Chairman: Do you get core funding to run your centre?
Mr. Ravenelle: We get core funding to run our centre. We get money for the youth centre, and we just got funding for a pilot project on homelessness. We have funding for Urban Aboriginal AIDS Awareness.
The Chairman: You get some core funding, and then you get program dollars from different departments. Do you get any assistance from the province, or is it all federal money?
Mr. Ravenelle: It is all federal money.
The Chairman: Do you have any relationship with the province at all?
Mr. Ravenelle: Not really, no. Most of the provincial money goes to the FNQL.
The Chairman: What is FNQL?
Ms. Tremblay: Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador.
The Chairman: That is a political organization.
Mr. Ravenelle: Yes. We also sit on their youth council, but none of the youth in the city have seen any of the money that was supposed to go to youth.
The Chairman: What programs do you run through UMAYC?
Mr. Ravenelle: We just run the youth centre, where we give workshops. We had someone to assist youth when they came to the city to find housing and other needs. We have eliminated that now because of the homelessness project. Most of them will be included in that. We still have it running in the youth centre, but it will not be such a major component. Most of the people who used that worker were homeless.
Many of the youth go on various trips or to workshops across the country. It is mainly just a centre for youth to hang out and be among other Aboriginal youth.
The Chairman: It is really just a good youth centre.
Mr. Ravenelle: Yes.
The Chairman: When we were in Winnipeg, we heard about the Keewatin society, which moved into an area where many Aboriginal people were living. They started something quite interesting with their UMAYC dollars. They had pre-employment training. They had parenting training for youth. They had an AIDS workshop. They had about 30 students there, and it seemed to work quite well. Have you ever contacted other friendship centres outside Montreal to see what they are doing and to network with them?
Mr. Ravenelle: We do contact other centres. In Quebec, we do not get as much money as the other provinces for UMAYC. We do not have as elaborate projects as everyone else.
The Chairman: This project was not very elaborate. It was in an old garage that they renovated. No one is getting a whole lot of dollars.
Mr. Nolet, in regard to your funding, do you have a political organization? If so, are you working with the AFN or the Metis or any national organization?
[Translation]
Mr. Nolet: We are in contact with the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. We are an affiliate of CAP. Our provincial office is funded by Heritage Canada, which provides about $280,000. In the regions, the situation is a lot more precarious. As I mentioned in my presentation, in the past we were receiving a grant of $12,000 from the Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat. But about two years ago, the Aboriginal Affairs Secretariat decided there would be no more grants. In April 2002, it asked us to apply instead to SACA, the Independent Community Action Secretariat.
We presented an application, and received an answer one year later. On March 18, we received an operational funding grant of $12,000. In the meantime, the only money we have had for activities at the regional level — and this is the most we have had — is $2,500. We basically were just trying to survive. Now we will be able to do a bit more and take care of our people.
Another source of funding is membership dues from new members. A membership card costs $16 a year, and of that amount, the regional office receives $5. So, we are starting to breathe easier when it comes to regional funding. It's difficult for the communities, however, because they receive no government funding. They have to be proactive. I gave the example of the Sherbrooke community where two community officers are doing genealogical research. They had $10,000 in their last budget, but they are the ones doing the genealogical research. That money does not come from other sources. People have to be creative and be actively looking for opportunities because there are no stable funding sources.
So, for some communities, there is the $5 collected for new members, although that is not a lot of money, because it all depends on the communities. There is also the $15 per housing unit provided by the Weskahegen Corporation. If you assume that a community has 12 units, that does not represent a lot of money. Some communities, such as Sherbrooke, do not have any units. Grant funding for the communities is not consistent. There are some housing units in the Montreal area. There are about 12 or so in the Saint-Jean-sur-le-Richelieu area. There are also some in the Saint- Jérôme community, but I don't know exactly how many. All organizations are underfunded. Because of that, everything is done on a volunteer basis.
[English]
The Chairman: Do you get any financial help from the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples?
[Translation]
Mr. Nolet: Yes, we do receive funding from CAP. Approximately $2 million is provided by HRDC for job development across Canada in urban areas and communities across the country. In Quebec, we received $199,500. In my brief, it says that we helped 25 or 26 people find employment. But that is a drop in the bucket, compared to the $24 million the reserves receive for job development every year. One of the recommendations was to increase the percentage of funding the Alliance receives via its service corporation, to be able to help more Aboriginals living off reserve. That would be a realistic recommendation.
[English]
The Chairman: In other words, you are all doing wonderful work on next to no dollars. I compliment you for that. I have been down that road a few times in my organizing days.
Senator Pearson: Ms. Tremblay, we asked the Native Women's Association of Quebec to appear before us. Unfortunately, they were unable to come. I have received some materials from them in the past. They have certain issues that are the same as yours, that is, problems with funding and delays. We hear everywhere that even when funding is available it takes so long to receive it. You were just talking about it taking a year to get an answer concerning $12,000. That seems very inefficient.
In my discussions with them, I came away thinking that they were doing some very good work. Have you worked with the Native Women's Association of Quebec?
Ms. Tremblay: I actually worked for them for a while before I started working for Concordia.
I cannot really speak about their funding problems, which are similar to everyone else's. Because I have worked so many years for Concordia, I am sort of out of the loop when it comes to funding. We are one of the rare organizations that do not have a funding problem. Our core budget comes from the university. Money is never a problem for us.
Senator Pearson: I was interested not so much in their funding, which is a problem, but what I spoke to them about and what they sent me was an extremely good book on teaching sexuality to adolescents. Obviously, that is much needed. Is that an organization that continues to have some influence?
Ms. Tremblay: Yes, they do. Native Women of Montreal was one of the instrumental organizations born out of the fight for Bill C-31. The association does not believe that the battle was really won. They believe that Bill C-31 did not go far enough in recognizing the offspring of Aboriginal women. They would like to see the grandchildren recognized as well.
Right now, their main concerns are family violence, and, of course, education. This is what they are working on, both in and outside the community. We all know that women who are abused in their home communities end up in urban centres to escape the situation.
Senator Pearson: I really respected what they did. I wished that they were getting the support they needed.
Senator Christensen: Mr. Nolet, you are a probation officer by training and profession?
Mr. Nolet: Yes.
Senator Christensen: Do you receive any training at all to be sensitive to or aware of people with FAS or FAE?
Mr. Nolet: I have seen a few cases of it.
Senator Christensen: Do you get any training as a professional officer?
Mr. Nolet: No.
Senator Christensen: Therefore, none of the other probation officers would have any training in that field. I refer not to training in diagnostics but in terms of awareness.
Mr. Nolet: I saw the diagnosis two or three times. However, I have not attended any workshops teaching me how to deal with them.
[Translation]
Mr. Nolet: In Quebec, we do not have any particular training. That is the first time I have heard of this.
[English]
Senator Christensen: Ms. Tremblay, does Concordia offer Bachelor of Education degrees for teachers?
Ms. Tremblay: Yes.
Senator Christensen: Is there any thought being given to having all teachers who are getting a degree take a course in First Nations awareness and background?
Ms. Tremblay: No. This is something that we will remedy with our major in first peoples studies. One of the courses we are introducing will be called ``first peoples and education.'' It will map the whole process, from our methods of educating our own children before contact, to intervention from non-native people, all the way to today and reclaiming our own education systems. We fully expect that the education department will want to cross-list a course for their own students.
Senator Christensen: Every teacher should have that sort of exposure. It does not matter whether they will be teaching First Nations or not.
Ms. Tremblay: I imagine this is not specific to Quebec. It must be the same thing in other regions of Canada.
The vast majority of the teachers in native schools are non-native. That is a major problem because we are dealing with young teachers who are usually just out of school — 22 years old — who need to accumulate a certain number of hours to qualify for their teaching licence and who need to cut their teeth on someone. There are many jobs in the northern regions, where the pay is excellent because we are trying to attract people. They become disillusioned fast and that influence on the children is detrimental.
Senator Christensen: How many youth come to your centres on a regular basis, on average? Person days are also important.
Mr. Ravenelle: I have that information somewhere. Actually, it is not here in my document. I do know that we have the youth membership figures because at the friendship centre we try to have all of them fill out a membership form and sign it. Our youth membership now is well over 500 and that does not account for all of them. Some of them come and go and some stay, but there are more than 500 youth.
Senator Christensen: Would many of those youth be off the streets or would they have some kind of home environment?
Mr. Ravenelle: As I said before, it changes with the seasons. In the past year, most of the clients in the youth centre have been street youth between the ages of 10 and 29 years. When the centre first opened, there were more youth ranging in age from 10 to 14 years. After a couple of months, the average age went up a little, and then the summer after that, there was a flood of homeless youth. Since that time, it has mainly been homeless youth in their early 20s.
The Chairman: Ms. Tremblay, in Edmonton we have two or three Aboriginal schools. Dr. Phyllis Cardinal started the Amiskwaciy Academy and is teaching there. Have you been in contact with her to find out what they are doing in their curriculum?
Ms. Tremblay: I met Dr. Cardinal last summer in Banff at the World Indigenous Conference on Education, where she was giving a workshop. It was interesting because her school is one of the few that is successful. Right now in Montreal, we can only dream of having such a school. I do not think that reality is in our near future. Montreal is desperately trying to open its first Aboriginal daycare centre. This is how basic our services are, and the daycare is 18 months behind schedule in its opening. They are experiencing problems with licensing from the ministry. For us, such a school would be great, but it is not a reality because of the great diversity of nations in Quebec. There are 11 nations represented in Quebec, more in the urban area of Montreal because people come from outside the province as well. Which culture do we represent in this school?
The Chairman: Do the same as they do at Amiskwaciy Academy, where they represent everyone — the Blackfoot, the Bloods, the Sioux, the Metis, et cetera. Everyone knows their different nationality and they respect each other. To begin, it might be a good idea to contact Dr. Cardinal to inquire about what they do. It may help you in your dream and in your vision. That is how Dr. Cardinal started — with a dream and a vision. She worked hard and achieved this.
It has been three years, and we were told that they would graduate 350 of their own students this year. The school is for grades 10, 11 and 12. This was a dream, and we must never stop dreaming because that is how we survive.
It is a wonderful opportunity to begin networking — and perhaps we could put in our recommendations that we must begin networking across the country. I could tell everyone that I am a Metis and not a half-breed. I tell young people that I see that they are not Indian, but Cree or Blackfoot or Sioux, et cetera. I tell them that it is their nationality. When we begin to identify with our nationality, then people will take notice.
If there are no other questions, I thank our three witnesses this evening. All of your recommendations will continue to be heard.
The committee adjourned.