Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 12 - Evidence - April 1, 2003
OTTAWA, Tuesday, April 1, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:05 a.m. to study issues affecting urban Aboriginal youth in Canada and, in particular, to examine access, provision and delivery of services; policy and jurisdictional issues; employment and education; access to economic opportunities; youth participation and empowerment; and other related matters.
[English]
Mr. Adam Thompson, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, it is my duty to inform you of the unavoidable absence of the chair. That being the case, I will now preside over the election of an acting chair and am prepared to accept nominations to that effect.
Senator Chaput: I nominate Senator Christensen.
Mr. Thompson: Are there any other nominations?
Hon. Senators: No.
Mr. Thompson: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Thompson: Carried.
I will ask Senator Christensen to take the chair.
Senator Ione Christensen (Acting Chairman) in the Chair.
The Acting Chairman: Honourable senators, we have with us today representatives from the Thunder Bay Indian Friendship Centre and the Oshki-Pimache-O-Win Education and Training Institute.
Please proceed.
Ms. Anne Lesage, Executive Director, Thunder Bay Indian Friendship Centre: I do not wish to be critical, but many studies have been done on Aboriginal people. If we could stack the reports, we could probably have a room full of reports on the issues of Aboriginal people today. To begin my opening remarks, I do not know how many more surveys and studies we need to understand the issues of Aboriginal people. Having said that, I am, once again, prepared to speak to these issues. A royal commission on Aboriginal peoples was conducted some years ago. A fairly lengthy section of that report is dedicated to urban Aboriginal youth. We will probably repeat some of the issues and potential solutions to the issues that face Aboriginal people and Aboriginal youth in particular today.
I want to begin by talking about some of the key issues that face urban Aboriginal youth in our community. I will speak from my knowledge of being an Aboriginal youth who came from a smaller community into an urban centre as well. I have been involved in friendship centres for a long time. For those of you who are not familiar, friendship centres are situated right across Canada and had their beginnings in the late 1950s. I come from a long line of youth involved in friendship centres, so I speak from experience and also as executive director and what I see in our communities today.
In terms of key issues for urban Aboriginal youth, these are not new things that you will hear today. There are key issues around education. We need to look at education from the standpoint of needs of urban Aboriginal youth and also youth from First Nations communities.
Education is still a barrier for youth. Our young people are still not finding success in mainstream educational institutions. We also know that there must be support for their academic studies right from the time that they are children in First Nations communities. That needs to be addressed. We know that Aboriginal young people come into school systems in the urban communities who are sometimes two and three years behind in their academic abilities and are therefore already at a disadvantage when they reach our public and Catholic school systems.
In addition, when their studies are completed in grade 8, the same issues arise in terms of coming into urban Aboriginal high schools. Their academics require support, and they need remedial help to be successful in their studies.
One thing that addresses these issues is alternative schools. My colleague will speak more fully to an Aboriginal- specific high school we have in our community. Alternative schools are a way of addressing some of these issues.
There is also a role for the federal government to play in the form of Indian and Northern Affairs addressing the educational needs of urban Aboriginal youth and Aboriginal youth in general. The cuts years ago to education funding has had an impact on the education of our young people. Incidentally, it was our young people who led the protests against the 12 guidelines, or the application of those, so our leadership is there. There is a role for Indian and Northern Affairs to review their programs and services with respect to education. The funding is not sufficient. We know that there is a large growth in Aboriginal people, and almost 70 per cent of Aboriginal people are in urban communities now. The funding for Aboriginal people has not grown with the population, and in particular we see that in education.
Access to health services is another issue. Many of these issues really stem from the lack of responsibility taken by government departments for Aboriginal peoples and First Nations peoples. I am referring largely to Aboriginal treaty rights. Those original rights are not being honoured, and neither are those rights with respect to access to health and education. I do not think we would be talking about urban Aboriginal youth issues today, or youth Aboriginal issues at all, if we were able to deal with the broader picture of First Nations rights generally. We would not have the issues we speak of today with Aboriginal youth and urban Aboriginal youth without needing to address the broader picture.
I know from experience in this community that education plays a big role for Aboriginal youth when it comes to being successful in employment and training initiatives. As an example, we did a recent consultation with youth around employment barriers. One of the barriers to employment is racism in our communities. Our community is interesting in that we have concerns about the out-migration of young people from this community down to the United States. They talk about the aging population, but they do not discuss the in-migration of young Aboriginal people into this community and the growing trend toward a larger Aboriginal population. That discussion ends there.
This community, as an example, is not prepared in terms of the shortages and various employment sectors. They do not realize that the young Aboriginal people coming into this community will be the workforce. There needs to be a bridging of that gap and the ability of our communities to respond on both sides to that issue.
One of the big barriers to employment is that magic grade 12 number in terms of any kind of employment opportunities, from the service industry and to trades. We know that Aboriginal people still have barriers to completing high school, and that again creates additional barriers for seeking employment. That is why I speak to alternative schools and other needs, because mainstream education systems still fail Aboriginal people.
I will give you a small example. When we talk about racism in the school system, yes, we have race-relations policies that are intended to deal with racism in our schools. What is happening, in effect, is that the punitive measures in some of these policies are being unfairly placed on Aboriginal peoples. We have to talk about those kinds of things in terms of policy. Racism still exists and is a big barrier to youth. When they come into our communities, they face all kinds of racial discrimination, and we still need to address that as a community, as a province and as a country.
Other issues that affect our young people are high rates of teen pregnancy, poverty, and overcoming many of the issues they face as young people. There needs to be more services available to young people. I speak to this in broad terms. Our communities and our nations are in the process of recovering from centuries of — I know I sound like a broken record when I use this terminology — colonization and assimilation. We cannot talk only about youth or band- aiding this portion or segment of our communities without looking at that bigger picture.
When it comes to access to services in our community, the way funding is distributed or allocated makes it sometimes difficult for youth to access, which slot or which silo they belong in to access services. I know again my colleague will speak to some of the funding distributions and how that affects access to services.
When I talk about the effects of colonization and assimilation, we are talking about generations of First Nations people being affected by those policies, and it is still occurring. Our young people, as well as First Nations and all Aboriginal peoples, are in a process of recovery. Original policies and laws affecting Aboriginal people that were created by successive Canadian governments have not worked for Aboriginal people. Self-esteem in our Aboriginal people, and our young people in particular, is something we need to work on.
When it comes to employment and training, as I mentioned earlier, we did a consultation on the issues around Aboriginal youth who do not see a brighter future, and come into urban Aboriginal communities feeling and believing that they are not going to find employment simply because they are Indian, or expecting that they are only going to find employment in — I would not say menial jobs, but jobs that are not well paying, or they believe that they will only have opportunities to work in Aboriginal organizations such as ours. Their vision for themselves needs to be brightened. Their esteem has to be lifted, and to do that, we have programs such as the Urban Multi-Purpose Aboriginal Youth Centre programs. Historically, friendship centres have a long history of working with youth and developing youth leadership. Many who have come through friendship centre programs have benefited from these programs. One program we used to have was called the Little Beavers program, a program for children six to twelve. It was one of the strongest programs in our province because it focused on culture, on self-esteem, on pride, and on leadership skills. They grew into young Aboriginal leaders in our communities. Those kinds of programs were cut by the provincial government around 1995.
We have to recognize the strengths and effectiveness of those kinds of communities working with children before they reach their teen years — the ability to promote in them a strong identity and pride in their heritage. When they come into our urban centres and into our education systems, they find the curriculum does not reflect the role of First Nations in this country. Indeed, a change needs to occur because what they face in schools, in addition to racism, is again this perpetration of the idea of Aboriginal peoples as not contributing to society.
When we look at the issue of teen pregnancy, we know that there are now different reasons why young Aboriginal people want to have families. When they come into urban centres, it is to replace that sense of belonging that they need. They are looking to restore their own families. They need support; they need a sense of family and a sense of belonging. That is often a sad reason to begin a family, but we know the reasons are changing for teen pregnancy, as an example.
Access to health services is an issue for many young people. I want to get back to poverty in terms of access to services with Aboriginal youth. Poverty plays a big role. While we may have programs and services for Aboriginal youth, we are in an urban centre. Although poverty and transportation are issues that affect many people in our communities, it is particularly so with Aboriginal youth. Even to find transportation throughout the city to access programs and services is an issue. Programming in our centre helps to meet that gap to allow young people to participate in our programs and services.
I would like to end this part of my presentation on key issues. I will go back to other best practices. I will ask my colleague to speak to some of the issues of which she is aware.
Ms. Ruth Baxter, Executive Director, Oshki-Pimache-O-Win Education and Training Institute: Thank you for the opportunity to make this presentation to the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, with particular emphasis on Aboriginal youth in the urban setting. My presentation will include a brief overview of our organization, identify some key issues, highlight some successes and challenges of Aboriginal youth, especially in the area of post- secondary education and training, and make some recommendations for action.
I am a member of Nishnawbe Aski Nation. I will refer to it as NAN during the rest of the presentation. NAN is a regional political organization that represents 49 First Nations situated in Northern Ontario. NAN's main objective is to represent at all levels of government the political, social and economic aspirations of the First Nations people of NAN.
NAN's traditional territory encompasses two thirds of the province of Ontario. Most of the NAN First Nations communities are accessible only by air or by winter ice roads. The majority of NAN First Nations are signatories to treaty number 9. Several First Nations close to the Manitoba border are signatories to treaty number 5.
The two traditional languages of the people of NAN are Ojibway and Cree. In 1996 the chiefs of Nishnawbe Aski Nation mandated the establishment of Oshki-Pimache-O-Win Education and Training Institute to serve the current and future post-secondary education and training needs of the NAN community members, as well as other learners. The institute is a not-for-profit charitable corporation with a governing council whose members represent the broad linguistic, cultural and geographic diversity of NAN communities. Membership in the corporation includes all NAN First Nations education authorities.
Oshki-Pimache-O-Win has three objectives developed by the founding members of the governing council. Number one is to develop, design and deliver post-secondary educational programs and services to meet the educational and cultural needs of the members and communities of Nishnawbe Aski Nation and other learners.
Number two is to enhance, organize and coordinate the delivery of post-secondary education and training programs and services that promote and support Nishnawbe Aski Nation culture, traditions, teachings, beliefs, language, values and lifestyles.
Number three is to establish protocols and partnerships with existing post-secondary educational institutions and Nishnawbe Aski Nation communities at the local level and in the regional, national and international arenas.
Beginning in 2000, Oshki-Pimache-O-Win has developed and delivered courses and programs, many in partnership with other organizations. In addition to the development and delivery of programs, Oshki-Pimache-O-Win is conducting funded research. One project in partnership with the Ontario Native Women's Association and the Centre for Rural and Northern Health Research at Lakehead University is looking into the health information needs of Aboriginal women in Ontario. In addition, the institute is conducting research into educational values and beliefs for Nishnawbe Aski Nation.
Some of the key issues we are dealing with and have identified ourselves but which have also been brought up in the literature that has been published include the following, which I will preface with an opening remark. I have given you the geographic location of our communities so you can picture all of northern Ontario as home for the people of Nishnawbe Aski Nation. With the lack of community infrastructure combined with the geographic isolation of our communities, most young people have to leave their families and homes to attend secondary and post-secondary education in an urban setting. This necessity brings many issues that have been extensively documented and studied. For the record, I will review some of them.
One issue is jurisdiction. Aboriginal people fall between jurisdictional cracks. When status Aboriginal students leave the confines of their reserve community, they leave federal jurisdiction and step into a provincial-municipal jurisdiction. They invariably attend high schools administered by school boards or attend provincially legislated colleges and universities. These are alien institutions that are insensitive to the students' cultural backgrounds.
The other issue would be the educational systems and cultural dichotomies. Aboriginal cultures and the European- based Canadian cultures are diverse and distinct. Until such time as the federal and provincial legislation acknowledge and accept this fact, the Aboriginal population will be continually marginalized within the existing educational system's curricula and philosophies.
Aboriginal students face a rigid system when they attend the urban educational facilities. Learning styles are different due to the varied cultures we have. There are numerous academic studies that attest to this fact. I will give you a quotation from the Assembly of First Nations report entitled, ``Tradition and Education: Towards a Vision of Our Future,'' published in 1988, page 79:
... identifies that preliminary findings of some First Nations schools indicate that a holistic approach to education is proving to be a successful factor in student learning. This teaching approach accentuates the simultaneous processing of information into a whole. The data suggest that the cultural influence of First Nations children promotes a learning strategy that tends to reflect an ability to synthesize separate elements of information into a group in order to obtain a good comprehension of the matter. In contrast, non-Aboriginal children tend to synthesize information by breaking it down into very specific elements to attend their comprehension according to their cultural influence.
Another key issue that my colleague has discussed is racism. Not to repeat what she has said, I would like to bring to your attention a study recently done in Thunder Bay, called ``A Community of Acceptance: Respect for Thunder Bay's Diversity.''
It is a comprehensive document which is available on-line. I do not have the author's name because I copied only the main content of the paper. If you want that information you can probably get in touch with me later. It gives you a good historic background as to how Thunder Bay is now, and it is good reading for the study that this committee is doing. I will not go into it in any detail. It recognizes that there is racism in Thunder Bay, especially for Aboriginal people. They face racism in all situations and different situations of the city, whether it is in the service sectors, such as restaurants and hotels, or schools.
The other issue we have not mentioned is the police force. There is definitely racism shown against Aboriginal people by the police force in Thunder Bay, and probably in other centres as well. The study clearly brings that fact out.
We are impeded by existing legislation, policies and regulations that have been put in place. Specifically, concerning the schools in Thunder Bay, where are the role models for Aboriginal youth within our school system? If you go into any school in this city where the Aboriginal population is estimated at 12 per cent, you will not see a 12-per-cent representation of Aboriginal teachers within our school system. In fact, you can probably count on one hand the number of Aboriginal teachers who teach within the Lakehead boards of education, both separate and public.
Other key issues include resources, especially financial. My colleague mentioned that our students, when they attend either high school or post-secondary education in urban settings, do not get adequate funding to survive, along with all the other elements that they have to deal with when they attend post-secondary education in an urban setting. Inadequate funding is definitely a key issue.
With regard to technology, in our isolated communities, it was a great event when we got our first telephone. With the advent of television, movies and now the Internet, we are exposed to the outside world. I do not think the outside world really knows who we are, although I think we are using that technology to try to get our message across to the rest of the population.
The reason I mention this is that we need the resources to be able to teach and train our people, especially our youth, to function in this world of high-tech. I like the word ``innovation.'' The federal government puts technology and innovation together. Innovation is a nice buzzword going around within government circles at the moment. Again, if you do not fit the parameters and the designated guidelines that fall within this category, then you do not gain access to this technology and innovation. Aboriginal people are probably the most innovative people we have. Being able to survive this long attests to that fact. It is ironic that government programs put parameters on what ``innovation'' means.
I will touch on some of the successes and challenges that we have. Two high schools have been established for Aboriginal students in our territory. One is in Sioux Lookout, the Pelican Falls high school. The companion to that is the Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School here in Thunder Bay. Both these high schools were established to answer the specific needs of Aboriginal students who were attending high school out of the Sioux Lookout district of the Nishnawbe-Aski territory. You might ask yourself, ``Why establish these schools?'' They established the schools to answer specific needs, and especially the areas of curriculum delivery, cultural teaching and the environment within the school setting itself.
How many high schools or elementary schools do you go into where you see native art on the walls? There are not many, especially in our cities. It is to make these students feel at home, to be a part of and a contributing member of these particular institutions.
There is also a move to establish an Aboriginal elementary school in Thunder Bay. In fact, the Nishnawbe Aski Nation chiefs at their last meeting passed a resolution to that effect. Again, you have to ask yourselves why.
The third success is the establishment of post-secondary and training institutions to specifically answer the needs of Aboriginal people. Oshki-Pimache-O-Win was established to answer those specific needs, especially for post-secondary and training needs, and services and programs that were lacking in mainstream institutions.
Even with the work that we have done, getting these institutions established has been an uphill battle, and it continues to be. We find the same issues of jurisdiction. Funding agencies tell us that we are not a recognized institute because we are not mandated or legislated by the provincial or federal statutes.
My argument is that we have our own jurisdiction. We, therefore, should be able to establish our own institutions. That is a big area. Governments should support us in our initiatives in establishing our own communities, our own institutions. That is the way we were before contact; we survived. We continue to survive and thrive in the reality that we are facing.
I could go on and on, but I specifically geared my presentation to education and training because that is my area. I have a few short recommendations to present to you.
We have the literature reviews; I brought some samples with me. We have the facts, figures and findings. We have successes in spite of all the barriers that we face.
I recommend that governments take action. It is interesting that the name of your study is ``an action plan for change.'' I recommend implementing the recommendations that have been mentioned in all previous studies. We have a library full of those. The Aboriginal population is growing and will continue to grow so that urban demographics will change drastically. One case in point is the study that I mentioned that was done in Thunder Bay. The government must take action to meet that challenge.
Successful initiatives, like the Oshki-Pimache-O-Win Education and Training Institute and other Aboriginal institutes in Canada, need to be supported by government legislation, policies and regulations.
In closing, it is amazing that we have accomplished what we have with minimal funding. Imagine what we could do if the political will were there to further our goals and objectives.
My recommendation is that this particular committee take their action plan for change and make this one work. Honour the commitments, the promises, and the treaties that have been made by previous governments. Meegwetch.
The Acting Chairman: As you pointed out, the name of our work — and we hesitate to call it a study because we also have scepticism about studies and what happens to them — is ``an action plan for change.'' That is what we are endeavouring to do. We have looked at previous reports and studies that have been done to see their recommendations, to see which recommendations were used and which were not but should have been.
We have heard from government department officials about what legislation is in place and which programs are working and which are not. We are also listening to other witnesses, as we are listening to you today, to hear what you perceive are the major problems. We ask that you tell us what is working and what is not working.
Please see that we have copies of your presentations and, certainly, a copy of the racism study that Ms. Baxter described.
Senator St. Germain: We have had a lot of witnesses come before the committee. It has been interesting. There are many similarities in the problems that exist across the country. You both brought up the question of role models and teachers. That situation does exist but it goes back to the basic problem of how we get our Aboriginal peoples to a competitive educational standard that allows them to get into post-secondary programs and into the teaching profession.
You mentioned alternative schools. I am a Metis from Manitoba so I am part Aboriginal. I think I understand the problems a little bit but I am certainly no expert in the field.
We heard about alternative schools. When Metis and Aboriginal children come into Vancouver, they are put into alternative schools where the standards of requirement drop right off. If our Aboriginal children are being put into those schools, we must be sure they are competitive with everyone. There is no reason why they cannot be, as far as I am concerned. I grew up with kids who were Aboriginal and Metis and a huge cross-section of the population, but we all competed at the same level.
Why are we struggling with this, especially off the reserve? I do not know whether children born in the urban centres have the same problems. Could you comment briefly on that, please?
Ms. Baxter: I am a product of a time when there were no schools in the First Nations communities where I came from in northern Ontario. That meant a residential school system for me. Success depended on the individual. I excelled academically.
There were no special programs for Aboriginal people in those days so I went through the regular school system in Ontario and succeeded. I never lost my language or culture. I still speak and teach my language in our institute now. The standards and requirements that I met were those of the regular system that I attended.
I also had support to be able to go through that system without my family and to deal with things every day. I have that background. When my children attended urban schools, they succeeded perhaps because I was a role model for them. Needless to say, they had no role models in the classrooms that they attended in Thunder Bay.
One of my four daughters has gone into the teaching profession. She never entered any special native programs, if you call it that. She has a fine arts diploma from one of the colleges. She got her fine arts degree from Lakehead University and then received her Bachelor of Education degree from Lakehead University as well. She applied to the Lakehead Board of Education for a teaching position within the board. She never even got an interview. In fact, she never even received an acknowledgement of her application. I believe she mentioned the fact that she is an Aboriginal person. As you have said, she was automatically put into the special category that she did not get the regular standard of education just because she is an Aboriginal person. Again, this whole thing about racism comes into the picture. It happens at every level. You are labelled because you are an Aboriginal person.
Senator St. Germain: Both of you have mentioned concerns about funding. The dilemma that I see developing in this country is that we have a huge number of our Aboriginal youth migrating to the urban centres. They are leaving the reserves. The funding from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is basically for reserve Aboriginal peoples. The federal government has the fiduciary responsibility for these people. The fact is that the Province of Ontario has been trying to establish institutions. They have two high schools and one elementary school. I am not sure whether this is done under the auspices of the province or not. However, the biggest dilemma which faces us in this country is that billions of dollars are going into the INAC or the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, but the moment our native people leave the reserve the responsibility seems to die off and we have this dilemma of all these people in these urban centres requiring training and education. Unfortunately, the funding is not there to support them.
This committee will attempt to address this matter. Some of us are concerned with the fact that we treat immigrants, who come into this country from other countries and who cannot speak the language, better than we have treated our own Aboriginal peoples.
Have you brought up with the AFN and the leadership the fact that there is a huge migration and there is no migration of funds with these people from the department? You talk about our native people falling through the cracks. They are, possibly because of the way the structure is set up.
Ms. Lesage: We are speaking about jurisdictional issues here. My colleague spoke to that in terms of Aboriginal people falling through the cracks. Once Aboriginal people leave their home communities, reserve communities, First Nations communities, the federal government's responsibilities also end once they leave that boundary. That is a serious issue.
The Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples spoke to the issue of portability of rights and access to services that are the responsibility of Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and the federal government. Earlier, I spoke to meeting needs of any segment of the Aboriginal community. You cannot address any particular group without going back to those original agreements. The federal government must respect those treaty rights and the rights of all Aboriginal people.
I have often been in other consultation and this issue has come up around developing corridors for Aboriginal people from reserve communities into urban centres that have no barriers and respecting those rights; that is, their rights to health benefits and to education funding for all Aboriginal people, regardless of where they live.
I also want to touch on your earlier comment about alternative schools and standards. I want to share a story. In Thunder Bay, we have a native teacher education program at Lakehead University. Years ago, I had the same concerns about standards in terms of coming out of those institutions. You made reference to them and how people are shuffled into alternative schools as soon as they come into an urban centre.
While I agree that is an issue we need to deal with, the whole concept of Aboriginal education institutes and alternative schooling, are there to address cultural and support needs. In that regard, there is great potential for those types of institutions. We also need to deal with the issue of standards. It is a wide variety of issues that young Aboriginal youth are facing, whose needs are met in some of these schools. I am not speaking to the standards of all schools across Canada or how they are developed or implemented. I can only speak to the fair successes we have had in Ontario with alternative schools. Some of those school programs are being delivered by the Ontario federation of Indian friendship centres in this area.
I cannot speak to those issues. However, Aboriginal people do not need lower standards of training or education. They need the supports and recognition for them as Aboriginal people, as contributing members of society and as members seen to be equal in society. That is not happening. We are talking about generations of those kinds of feelings and attitudes. When talking about the esteem or pride of young people, we need to look back historically. If we are to bring our youth into their vision, their dreams and their aspirations, we cannot just deal with young people. We must deal with First Nations people all over and we cannot separate.
When I talk about dealing with Aboriginal youth, whether they are on-reserve or off-reserve in urban communities, we must address the broader issues. I return to the federal government meeting its fiduciary obligations to Aboriginal people regardless of where we live. We also talk about jurisdictions. There is a big gap when Aboriginal people leave their communities.
Those are the things that need to be addressed. We are talking about respect for Aboriginal people and how we can develop self-esteem and respect for ourselves and for our young people. If that same respect is not accorded to our First Nations people and our First Nations leadership, that needs to be addressed.
Senator Carney: I have two questions. The first one either witness can answer, but I will ask Ms. Lesage. I have taught both Aboriginals and non-Aboriginals at the university level. At the end of day, while they might approach their assignments differently because of the way they learn or present information, they must meet specific standards to graduate because they are going into a highly competitive job market. Therefore, this is an area of interest to me.
To what degree do you think the Aboriginal culture is the responsibility of Aboriginals, the elders and families, to teach versus the actual school system? If the school system is geared at producing highly trained people who have to compete, that is quite a challenge. Where do you see the boundary between Aboriginal institutions or elders or families, or role models like yourself, taking the prime responsibility for the cultural aspects? I am not sure they can be taught by governments or institutions.
Ms. Lesage: I do not agree. There is a responsibility on all of us as Aboriginal people to maintain our culture, our traditional teachings and our traditional way of life. In mainstream institutions, there is not that respect there, or even an understanding of why culture plays such an important role. I do not necessarily believe it is the responsibility of mainstream institutions to deliver that, but there needs to be an accommodation for Aboriginal people to do that within institutions.
Senator Carney: That is a clear distinction, and I appreciate it.
My second question is also to you. There has been some comment by the witnesses about the splintering of services. You talk about the jurisdictional splintering and the fact that there are many agencies delivering many services. We have heard consistently in this committee about the need to have youth centres so that youth can have a safe place. We do have the friendship centres. How do you make a distinction between the friendship centres, which are highly regarded, and the need for separate youth centres, or do you feel they should be integrated? Why can a friendship centre not offer a safe place to youth and avoid the fragmentation of funding?
Ms. Lesage: We have an Urban Multi-Purpose Aboriginal Youth Centre Program that operates out of our centre. The face of friendship centres has changed as well. When I was a youth, it was community based with community development activities. There was a craft shop. We had few programs, but it was community centred. It was a place for Aboriginal people to be and to come to in Thunder Bay. However, with the expansion and development of services, with service delivery, came a new type of friendship centre, and with that came bureaucracy, papers, and offices, and it really changed. We used to have an open concept friendship centre that was built for community.
Senator Carney: And also executive directors.
Ms. Lesage: We have always had an executive director, as far as I know, and the founding member of our friendship centre is well known in the friendship centre movement across Ontario. You talk about developing service delivery, which is something friendship centres have done extremely well in Ontario. We deliver 11 different programs in the centre, so we have developed a wide range of services for the entire community, whereas our centre was originally built by young people and some strong leadership in our community. When you look at replacing a community-based type of organization that advocated and was small P political, that spoke to issues, that liaised and insured that people got services, when you move into service delivery, it becomes a different animal. I went through that myself as an executive director when our programs began to expand. Service delivery is different from the kind of centre we were in the 1960s, and other centres right across Canada. Then came the rules, and you got a packaged program from on top that was sent into friendship centres to deliver, regardless of whether communities might have different unique needs or approaches to a particular program, issue or service. We had blanket programs and blanket policies that did not fit every community. The voice of young urban Aboriginal people was impacted to some extent by the move to service delivery. Our program promotes youth empowerment and participation, and we still continue to do that. However, the needs of urban Aboriginal youth have changed. Although friendship centres have been status blind, and have always serviced every Aboriginal person that has come into an urban community, the nature of the business has changed.
We have a large Aboriginal population in Thunder Bay. We are talking about 18,000 to 20,000 Aboriginal people in Thunder Bay. Again, we aspire to service all Aboriginal people. Most of our people are young in Thunder Bay. When we look at the demographics and population trends, we know that urban communities need to have urban centres for youth, much like friendship centres did. We played a large role in youth leadership. I stand here today as a young person who has come through the friendship centres. The needs have changed in urban centres, and aboriginal youth need that place to go and belong and to be able to access a home away from home in urban centres. That is what our young people want in our community.
Senator Pearson: I want to pick up, Ms. Lesage, on your comment about youth empowerment because that is one of the issues in which we are interested. From the point of view of self-respect, young people need to be given the opportunities early to be actively engaged in their surroundings, whether that is an educational setting or a club or sports. We have heard a lot about the importance of sports and the positive impact of additional support or infrastructure for sports in our travels.
Could both of you comment specifically about how you work within the friendship centre to empower the young? We are looking at, say, under 18. Do you have a program there? In the school setting, not the post-secondary but the Aboriginal schools, high schools and so on, what role is there for kids to have influence on what is happening?
Ms. Lesage: I must start with some of the programming that is available to parents and young parents. It is all the CAPC programming, the zero to 6 programming, that has grown in our communities over the years. We have to start with babies and children, incorporating again the culture into parenting programs, working with our little ones and our infants. We have the youth empowerment programs, what we call our Urban Multi-Purpose Aboriginal Youth program, but right now there is a gap, and that is the age 6 to 12, roughly. That gap used to be filled by a program called Little Beavers, provincially. That program, as I said, was cut. We are trying to fill that gap with what resources we do have. However, there needs to be a continuum of that kind of programming from the time that they are infants right through to the time that they are teens to instil in them a sense of their own heritage, their own pride and their own self-identity. That is what will make young people successful: having that strength behind them and that understanding of who they are and where they come from.
We begin with our zero-to-six children. We try to fill the gaps for the 6-to-12. Here is where the urban multipurpose Aboriginal youth centres pick up.
Senator Pearson: Ms. Baxter, did you have some comment around the school setting? I spent the day yesterday with some school children, including Aboriginal kids, who were complaining about the lack of input they have into anything to do with their schools.
Ms. Baxter: I have a couple of examples. With the Aboriginal high schools that I mentioned, there is opportunity for them to become involved in leadership roles especially in the formation of their student councils. They take part fully in that area and in their sports and in some of the other special programs. They compete with other high schools in programs like volleyball and hockey.
In our communities, too, the political organization, the Nishnawbe Aski Nation or NAN, has youth delegates at the chiefs' conferences. They take part fully as regular delegates at the chiefs' meetings. The NAN Youth Council represents all youth across our territory.
I want to go back to the first question regarding alternative schools. When one mentions the word ``Montessori,'' I think of an alternative school and there is an instant understanding that the standard is high. If you mention an Aboriginal alternative school, it should be equal to a place like Montessori. That is our objective. That is our philosophy in establishing these schools. To me an Aboriginal alternative school does not mean lower standards. I hope that this committee takes that message away with them after these hearings.
We are starting these schools because the existing mainstream educational institutions do not meet our needs. One need is to deal with our cultural backgrounds, our languages, our history, and our worldviews. Those things are not found in a mainstream institution. I forget the term that Senator Carney used, but this is a competitive world. We know that. Our schools will be competitive as well. In the high schools and the elementary schools that will be starting, we will teach our youth. We will empower our youth to be leaders, to have self-esteem, to compete — if that is the word. That is an almost alien word. School is not supposed to be a competition in our worldview, yet that is the word we keep hearing, that education is a competitive picture. It is a competitive world out there. We are trying to function within that surrounding, which is actually strange.
Ms. Lesage: If I may add another comment, we know there is a need for alternative schools. We know the First Nations technical institutes, such as the one that Ruth is part of, are an important part of that system. There are other means as well. I will try to tie this into empowerment as well, but I want to give you another innovative approach in terms of empowering people through education.
This example comes from our own community. I am part of a council called Negahneewin; it is part of Confederation Community College in Thunder Bay. The new terminology we are using is ``a college within a college.'' We knew we did not have within our community the ability to have our own Aboriginal post-secondary institution. However, through the work of community members, including partnerships with Nishnawbe Aski, we have now the Negahneewin College of Indigenous Studies. I must give credit to the college for acknowledging to a great extent the aspiration of Aboriginal people to have control over their education programs. We have worked hard with the local college to have that recognized.
Recently this Negahneewin College of Indigenous Studies was awarded an applied degree program. It is one of very few in Ontario. The program, for which standards will be rigorous, is called Indigenous Leadership and Community Development. It is a four-year program. That is one example of another innovative way of meeting the needs of Aboriginal people that incorporates their values, their world views, their right to control their own Aboriginal education and their right to have a say in the kinds of educational programs and services provided for Aboriginal peoples and their communities.
The council also incorporates a community-based membership. Students who actively participate on the council help to make decisions for Aboriginal programs in the college. Another example of youth empowerment is the active youth participation on boards and committees of friendship centres. The youth take part in designing and delivering the Urban Multi-Purpose Youth Initiative Centre. These are opportunities to empower youth to become the leaders of tomorrow.
Senator Comeau: I have one question. I come from a rural community where a group of Canadians has depended for many centuries on the resources of the land and sea. This has been a great influence on the culture and identity and heritage of the community to which I belong. Similarly, Aboriginal attachment to the land and sea has influenced the culture, identity and heritage of your people. My question is simple. Can this sense of identity be maintained once you leave the rural setting to which you are attached and move into an urban setting?
Ms. Lesage: All I can say is that the land and the sea never leave you wherever you go as an Aboriginal person. We are tied to the land spiritually and culturally. I experienced, as a young Aboriginal person, leaving a way of life that very much included hunting, trapping, fishing, living off the land, and catching and eating our own food. When I came into an urban centre, I was pointed out for the first time as being different, as being Aboriginal. Sometimes you do not truly embrace who you are in your culture until you are forced, perhaps by moving to an urban setting, to look at yourself as being different. In many ways, programs like friendship centres have been part of recovering our spirituality, our culture, because we have had to do that.
Ms. Baxter: I would like to make comments on that question as well.
We must remind ourselves and each other that the Ojibwa, the Cree, the Mohawk, take it right across this land called Canada, are the original inhabitants of this country. The Aboriginal culture is diverse. That culture that I know as an Ojibwa person will never leave me, even if I live in Thunder Bay or if I live somewhere in Europe. It is part of who you are. I was born on an island in northern Ontario. There were no hospitals or health services when I came into this world. My grandmother brought me into this world. I know we are fortunate, as people that live in northern Ontario, that we have not been impacted upon or greatly influenced by modern society, if you like. All our culture is unique. It is different; it is rich from the mainstream Canadian culture. As I said in my presentation, until governments and other peoples begin to acknowledge and accept that, maintaining that culture will be an ongoing battle, especially since we do not get the financial support from governments to implement our institutions, our programs and services that are required at the community level. Maybe if we had the infrastructure and the finances to build high schools and post- secondary institutions in our communities, we would not have to leave our communities. Right now, the way the situation is, we are forced. We have no alternative but to leave if we are to access high school, or post-secondary education, or employment, or health services, or anything else that mainstream society takes for granted.
We will never lose our culture. We, as a people, will be here forever. Land, sea, air, whatever you want to call it, that is who we are.
Senator Chaput: The federal government is considering establishing a new system of Aboriginal school boards. The boards would be set up across the country and operate under provincial jurisdiction.
In your opinion, how important is this type of reform to improving the educational outcomes for your people? What is your position on this type?
Ms. Baxter: I have the paper with a headline that states, ``Ottawa Pushes School Shake Up for Natives.''
Senator Chaput: Yes, that is the one.
Ms. Baxter: Some people may applaud this as reform. I do not because these are the types of things that are government initiatives. How much consultation, if you like, although that is another word that is over used, has gone on to make this proposal? We experience government initiatives, however they come into the picture, whether it is an idea in someone's mind that, perhaps, something should be done without looking at the whole picture of the impact that would be caused or something else.
Again, here we are talking about jurisdiction. We are not a provincial jurisdiction. When Indian affairs ran the school programs in the communities, like on the reserves, they did not even have an education curriculum. I think that is where the standards failed. We are still trying to catch up to that issue.
The education system that was offered through the INAC program was substandard to begin with. The schools operating within our communities now are recommended to follow the provincial guidelines. I think more study and more insight must take place before something like this can be implemented across the board. That is what happened in the past, too, namely, the government treats all the Aboriginal people the same, and we are not. Maybe Alberta thinks it is a good idea. In our territory, I do not think they would accept it as a good idea. You must accept those differences amongst Aboriginal peoples. We are not one culture. We are many different groups within this country.
Ms. Lesage: I would like to make one closing comment. We talk about things happening at either the provincial or the federal government level. Where I feel strongest is this: Neither the federal nor provincial nor municipal governments will be able to ever fix what is wrong in Indian country. It will be us who will recover and who will mend our past. I do not think that any of you can do it for us. That is why I talk about the treaties, the respect for Aboriginal people as sovereign nations, and being accorded that respect and those rights to do what we need to do to recover our young people, to recover ourselves and to do our healing. When you talk about policy or programs, they need to be flexible and they need to recognize the aspirations of Aboriginal people. That is how we will do it. We will not fix what is wrong in our communities by imposing another act, the First Nations Governance Act. We are dealing with the fallout of the Indian Act and I think it is time to go back to the root causes of issues that are faced by Aboriginal people. Those go right back to 1492 and the need to recognize our First Nations and as leaders for our nations. That is really the end of my comments.
The Acting Chairman: I have two senators who have questions, but another committee is coming into this room.
I apologize. We have run over time, but we have received excellent input. I thank the witnesses for being here and for the forthright way you have made your presentations. Again, I ask that you forward your written presentations and the studies that you have mentioned to our committee.
Honourable senators, our chairman is ill, as is our deputy chair. We had a motion this morning that I would fill in today. Neither one will be here for a meeting on Wednesday, and I would ask for agreement to chair on Wednesday.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Acting Chairman: Carried.
The committee adjourned.