Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 12 - Evidence - April 2, 2003
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 2, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:20 p.m. to study issues affecting urban Aboriginal youth in Canada and, in particular, to examine access, provision and delivery of services; policy and jurisdictional issues; employment and education; access to economic opportunities; youth participation and empowerment; and other related matters.
Senator Ione Christensen (Acting Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Acting Chairman: Honourable senators, our witnesses this evening are from the New Brunswick Aboriginal People's Council, Chief Betty Ann Lavallée and Ms. Stephanie Bolger.
As you are aware, the committee prefers to call this an action plan for change in respect of Aboriginal youth in urban areas and some of problems that they face. The committee has examined many studies and recommendations that have gone before. We have also looked at legislation and programs, and we have gone out across the country to talk to people that are dealing with Aboriginal youth to hear about not only the problems but also the success stories.
Chief Lavallée, please proceed with your presentation.
Chief Betty Ann Lavallée, C.D., New Brunswick Aboriginal People's Council: On behalf of the constituency represented by NBAPC, more than 7,500 off-reserve status and non-status who live in New Brunswick, it is my pleasure to appear here today to present and discuss with the Standing Senate Committee, with the help of my youth representative, issues pertaining to Aboriginal youth in urban areas.
I must take a few moments to tell you about NBAPC and our people. This knowledge will go a long way toward understanding not only our youth but also the numerous issues affecting the interests and rights of off-reserve Mi'kmaq, Maliseet and other Aboriginal peoples who reside in New Brunswick.
The New Brunswick Aboriginal People's Council had its beginnings in 1972, as the New Brunswick Association of Non-status Indians. Our primary objective, when we began, was to respond to the demand and the need for an effective advocacy voice for persons of Maliseet and Mi'kmaq ancestry who lived off-reserve in New Brunswick and who were non-status Indians. This group included Indian women who had lost status by provisions of the Indian Act, most notably section 12.1(b); persons who had never lived on the reserve and who were never registered under the Indian Act; Indian persons who had lost status by voluntary or involuntary enfranchisement; and the descendents of the people listed above.
As we began to make contact with and organize this constituency of people, we became acutely aware of the deplorable social and economic conditions that these Aboriginal peoples faced. We quickly found ourselves dealing with the many problems that affected their daily lives. Because we were non-status Indians, we were not eligible for assistance from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, DIAND, and we had to depend upon federal and, to a lesser degree, provincial programs of general applicability. We developed a number of mechanisms and service agencies to address the social and economic conditions faced by the forgotten Aboriginal peoples of New Brunswick.
One of these mechanisms or agencies is the Skigin-Elnoog Housing Corporation, an Aboriginal-owned and managed non-profit housing society that has built or acquired over 1,000 units of social housing for both low-income Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal families in New Brunswick.
Wabanaki Development Corporation is an economic development agency of NBAPC that created numerous opportunities for training, employment and economic development for off-reserve Aboriginal peoples in the province. We have delivered numerous programs and services on behalf of Human Resources Development Canada, HRDC. Over the last 30 years, NBAPC has assisted Aboriginal people to obtain training, educational upgrading, job skills development and employment. NBAPC's education assistance program has enabled many low-income Aboriginal families and their children to place a greater importance upon obtaining an education by staying in public schools, by recognizing excellency and by insisting that off-reserve Aboriginal students attend post-secondary institutions.
The Rising Sun Summer Camp of the NBAPC is located at Little Lake, New Brunswick. The camp affords low- income Aboriginal children the opportunity for a few short weeks each summer to escape the deplorable social and economic situations, which many are forced to live under, and an opportunity to meet other Aboriginal people and re- acquaint themselves with aspects of the Aboriginal heritage.
These are just a few of the many services, programs and institutions that NBAPC has delivered or created over the past three decades that are aimed at the off-reserve community of interest who live in New Brunswick. No understanding of NBAPC, its role, its purpose or our concerns about urban Aboriginal youth, can be fully comprehended unless one is knowledgeable about the demographics of the Aboriginal population of New Brunswick. It would take an enormous amount of time to recite page after page of social, economic and demographic statistics that show all too clearly the deplorable conditions under which off-reserve Aboriginal people live, and it is not the purpose of this brief to do so. However, we will provide the committee with some population statistics and direct you to socio- economic statistics found in numerous studies commissioned by Statistics Canada, Heritage Canada and in volume two of the RCAP final report.
In 1996, the census showed that of the approximately 17,000 persons of Aboriginal ancestry resident in the Province of New Brunswick, 5,500 persons were identified as living on-reserve. Of the remaining 11,500 Aboriginal persons, 4,500 were identified as off-reserve status Indians and 7,000 were non-status Metis people. From NBAPC's own records and from data provided by DIAND, figures show that 32 per cent of all registered Indians from provincial reserves live off-reserve — approximately 3,200 persons. As well, there are another 1,000 non-territorial status Indian and Inuit who make the province of New Brunswick their home.
When we add these figures, the estimated 3,300 non-status Indians — those persons of Mi'kmaq and Maliseet ancestry who are not eligible for registration under the Indian Act — 52 per cent, or about 7,500 Aboriginals, live off- reserve in the province. This figure represents a significant number of Aboriginal persons that courts have held as having more than a passing interest in Aboriginal issues and it substantiates our position that access to programs, services, Aboriginal and treaty rights and self-governance must not be on the basis of place of residency or registration under the Indian Act.
Ms. Stephanie Bolger, Youth Representative, New Brunswick Aboriginal People's Council: On behalf of the off- reserve Aboriginal youth of New Brunswick, I would like to thank the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples for the opportunity to be here today to impart our thoughts and opinions on issues faced by urban and rural Aboriginal youth in New Brunswick.
Before I begin, I would like to introduce myself and give you an idea of who I am and where my opinions come from.
My name is Stephanie Bolger. I have been working with off-reserve, urban and rural, status and non-status Aboriginal youth in some capacity since I was 16 years old. In 1999, I was elected by the Aboriginal youth to be their provincial youth representative. I have been the New Brunswick Aboriginal youth representative to the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples Youth Council for the last several years and I was recently elected to the Executive Steering Committee for the National Youth Council. Last year I was appointed to the National Aboriginal Organizations Youth Committee on behalf of the Congress. Through this process, I have had the opportunity to meet with and give my thoughts and opinions to federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for Aboriginal affairs and to the national Aboriginal leaders. I have sat on various other committees and attended conferences, including the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy Conference held in 2001.
As an Aboriginal youth and the mother of two Aboriginal children, I believe I have a good concept of the issues faced by urban and rural Aboriginal youth, both in New Brunswick and on a national scale.
What are the issues that face urban and rural Aboriginal youth? If I had a quarter for every time I have heard an Aboriginal youth tell me they were bored, I would probably have enough money to retire. Our youth are bored. This may seem like a common issue, not just among Aboriginal youth but also among youth in general. There is one difference, however. Aboriginal youth do not have the same opportunity as their non-Aboriginal counterparts. They are faced with high rates of poverty, unemployment, homelessness, violence, health problems, abuse, family violence, sexual exploitation and the list goes on.
Add to this a little boredom and the results are disastrous: suicide, alcohol and drug abuse, incarceration, and the continued intergenerational cycle of violence. There are issues that I, as a youth, am frankly tired of seeing and hearing in the media.
The primary issue of DIAND and the registration policy under the Indian Act is an overwhelming issue, of which many young Aboriginal people are only recently becoming aware. To me, the Indian Act is one of the most repulsive and racist pieces of legislation. Nothing or no one will tell me my child is or is not an Aboriginal person. How can one nation be so bold as to tell another nation who their citizens are and what their citizenship requirements are? What other nation would allow such a thing? This issue affects all Aboriginal people, especially youth today and their children.
Bill C-31 only delayed the assimilation of Aboriginal children and youth a couple of generations. We are literally being legislated out of existence, assimilated by the pen rather than by the sword. Being a non-Indian means being denied health benefits and post-secondary education. It means harassment when trying to exercise your traditional hunting and fishing rights. It means being stigmatized by your own people as not being Indian enough. It means being denied access to other programs and services. It means having the same problems and issues as those with status, but without any of the support mechanisms. Where is the justice for the youth and children of our Aboriginal nations?
Add to this the continuous bickering of the provincial and federal government over fiduciary responsibility for off- reserve Aboriginal peoples. For both status and non-status, the federal government does not want to take responsibility, because we are not in their jurisdiction on reserve. The provincial government does not want to deal with us, because we are a federal responsibility. The buck is passed back and forth while, in the meantime, Aboriginal youth suffer and die. This is unacceptable.
I would, however, like to point out to this committee that everything is not all gloom and doom and that there are a few good programs that are starting to make a positive change in the lives of urban Aboriginal youth and Aboriginal youth in general. The National Aboriginal Youth Strategy, in theory, is a good strategy. In principle, it is good to see that Canada and the provinces are committed to Aboriginal youth. It is a good concept. However, in reality, what has the NAYS really done for Aboriginal youth? I have yet to see anything concrete develop from the NAYS, other than a conference held in Edmonton. So far, I have not been impressed; however, the jury is still out and we will continue to participate, because at NBAPC we believe in taking a pro-active approach until the bitter end. If you do not participate, you have no right to complain.
The Aboriginal Human Resource Development Strategy is an excellent initiative. In New Brunswick, the AHRDS has given youth an opportunity to realize their goals. The strategy attends to all off-reserve Aboriginal people, status or non-status, urban and rural. It is a community-based program and allows enough flexibility to suit all of our needs. No program is perfect; there is always room for improvement, but it is a good beginning and needs to be continued and built upon.
One of the issues with the AHRDA is the inequality of funding for off-reserve Aboriginal peoples.
Another excellent initiative is the Urban Multi-purpose Aboriginal Youth Centres program. The theory behind the initiative is that it is designed by youth, for youth. It allows flexibility for youth councils to address their own specific needs. This program needs to be expanded and made more accessible. It is generally a competition for the limited and coveted dollars, which often creates divisions and animosity among our people. This can be said for a number of programs.
There are probably an unlimited number of programs, strategies, initiatives and agencies directed at Aboriginal people, and youth specifically. However, many of them I am not aware of. For many of the existing programs, off- reserve, urban and rural Aboriginal people are not eligible for one reason or another, let alone those people who do not have status under the Indian Act. Many programs claim they do not discriminate based on residence or status, but this is simply not the case.
I am fortunate to have been appointed to the National Aboriginal Organizations Youth Committee working group. This is a subgroup of the Federal-Provincial-Territorial Meeting of Ministers Responsible for Aboriginal Affairs and National Aboriginal Leaders, FPTA. The purpose of this group was to monitor the development of the NAYS. One area this working group agreed on was the lack of leadership development. We presented this glaring omission to our Aboriginal leaders and ministers at a meeting in Iqaluit in November, making this a number-one priority.
The rationale for making this a number-one priority is to empower Aboriginal youth by assisting and giving them the tools they need to take charge of themselves and their situations. Only they can address the individual issues that affect them, their family and their communities. It steers Aboriginal youth towards positive solutions rather than negative actions. It prepares them as leaders of tomorrow, the most important renewable resource of Aboriginal nations.
While leadership development may not be the answer to every single problem faced by Aboriginal youth, I believe it will go a long way towards creating positive change in the lives of our youth and Aboriginal people in general.
A further recommendation is that funding be allotted to Aboriginal representative organizations to hire a full-time youth coordinator. All too often, we are forced to rely upon volunteers to work with Aboriginal youth. I work 25 to 30 hours a week on the youth portfolio, on top of my full-time employment and my other full-time employment as a mother.
I should point out that this is only doing what needs to be done and not any of things that should be done.
With a full-time youth coordinator, other monies can be obtained through proposal writing, fundraising and even economic development. The youth would have the basics to begin addressing the problems that have been researched, studied, analyzed and surveyed over the past couple of decades.
Finally, my last recommendation is to replace the antiquated Indian Act with an Aboriginal peoples act, something along the lines of what the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples proposed in its final report of 1996.
I would like to thank the committee for allowing me the time to express my views. I would be happy to discuss any questions you may have concerning my presentation or Aboriginal youth in general. I have enclosed in my presentation a copy of the minutes from our youth meeting. NBAPC youth helped me develop my position paper to present to this committee. At NBAPC, we do not develop position papers in isolation. I carry the voice and aspirations of NBAPC to you.
The Acting Chairman: The things you have actually done impress me. There is a whole list here of the different programs you have developed. It is impressive and upbeat. There are many problems there, but it was a very upbeat presentation.
Senator Pearson: It is always a pleasure to hear from young people and other young people. You look pretty young, too, Chief Lavallée.
My question is to Ms. Bolger. This challenge is not just for the Aboriginal community, as you already say. You talk about youth and they say they are bored. Boredom is a state of mind and, therefore, has to do with what you are in an interior way. You talk much about empowerment and so forth, so I would like you to elaborate more on the kinds of things that you have been doing. Once you get kids involved in these things, it is my experience that they are not bored any more.
Your idea of a coordinator is excellent. You always need somebody. You cannot expect things to happen with no help at all.
We have been interested, for example, in the role of sports in young people's lives. Have you some experience with that being done in New Brunswick, or some ways in which we could recommend support for youth activities?
Ms. Bolger: With the National Aboriginal Organizations Youth Committee I sit on, we talk about leadership. In our leadership model, we have the cultural aspects of leadership: physical, emotional, economic and political. We look at the whole picture. In developing leadership, we want them to focus also on the physical, and getting involved in sports and worrying about their health and different things.
I work within the Aboriginal Human Resources Development Strategy program and many of my clients have asked us for help when their sons want to play hockey, for example. We currently have no programs to provide help in that regard, but that would be a good thing because sports do develop leadership.
Senator Pearson: I am not talking only about leadership, because leadership implies that there is ``followership.'' I am really talking about empowerment. You do not necessarily have to be a leader if you are empowered. Sports is a good way of empowering people because, for one thing, in sports you learn how to lose. We feel strongly about the opportunities in sports. If there is something in that regard that either of you could recommend, I would be interesting in hearing it.
Ms. Lavallée: We have recently been asked to sit on the Aboriginal Sports Circle in New Brunswick, and we now have a person there. Unfortunately, as Ms. Bolger said, we do not have access to the funds to assist parents to get their children into sports. I believe sports does play a great role in the development of a child. They learn how to team play and to be confident. It builds their self-esteem and it also promotes health. Look at the latest reports released by the government concerning Aboriginal children and Aboriginal people in general. We have a high incidence of obesity, diabetes, heart disease and so forth.
Sports, even community sports, are extremely expensive. I have two young nephews, and it takes three families to pay the fees to register them in sports in New Brunswick. Myself and my husband, my mother and my father, and my brother, who is a single parent, all contribute. It costs about $700 for two young boys, not including the equipment and travel to the various communities where they are required to play. There is an additional administration fee to cover the cost of referees. For someone on social assistance, that is just a pipe dream.
Senator Pearson: This is a very important issue. My grandsons are involved in soccer, which costs $60 for the season, including uniforms. Hockey is an expensive sport, although it did not used to be. You used to be able to play organized hockey in the backyard.
Your message is that we should be making these opportunities affordable and also providing a broader choice.
Ms. Lavallée: Yes. The bottom line is that any organized sport costs money. It is unfortunate, even for non- Aboriginal children, that physical education is being taken out of the school system. That used to a basic part of the school curriculum. When I went to school, at least three times a week we had one hour of physical education. At that time, we had access to sports, be it intramural or whatever. Now even that component is missing.
Senator Stratton: I want to deal with the issue of boredom. It is wonderful to get kids involved in sports, but I am worried about the kids who say that it is not cool to be in sports, that it is cool to be bored.
I remember those days vividly. I was bored. It was not cool to be in sports or to do well academically. Those are the kids we should be worried about, those who do not think it is cool to be involved in sports. Those kids are out there in abundance, as they were in my day. I do not think the world has changed that much over time.
What will we do about those kids?
Ms. Bolger: Many times, these kids have a lot of negative self-esteem. Many times it is not a good thing to be an Aboriginal person. Much of our pride is being lost for many reasons.
We have to instil in our youth a sense of pride in who they are and help them to relearn their culture. Many of us have lost our culture and our languages. We sometimes do not know who we are. We have to get back to who we are and then it will come out. Basic self-esteem is a big issue with many of our people.
There are many things we could do. We need positive role models. We have a couple of different achievement awards and mentorship programs through the congress. However, that is currently only in the Ottawa area and it does not help us much in the East. Hopefully, that will be expanded upon. Those things will not cost a lot of money, but we need the infrastructure to be able to do that. We need more staff to be able to coordinate all of this.
Ms. Lavallée: I agree with Ms. Bolger. Sometimes when kids walk around saying, ``I'm cool and I won't play sports,'' that is just a self-defence mechanism. Sometimes it is easier to tune out than tune in. If you deny your circumstances, it is easier to cope with the life you are living.
I have in my own life a young lady who had that attitude. She is a brilliant young woman with a lot of potential. She had someone pay attention to her and reinforce the fact that she was bright and could do anything she wanted to do. All she needed was someone to stand behind her and give her encouragement. She was pleased to report to me yesterday — a kid who was kicked out of school and put into anger management — that she scored 80 on all her subjects this year and is well on the road to graduation. These kids are not write-offs. All they need is someone to care about them and give them the tools to help them help themselves.
Senator Sibbeston: I know from the information you provided that there are 17,000 Aboriginal persons in New Brunswick, 5,500 of whom are on reserves. That is less than half on reserves. Is life better on reserves or are the urban Aboriginal peoples better off in your part of the country?
Ms. Lavallée: Depending upon whom you ask, you would get two different answers. If you asked someone residing on reserve, they would probably tell you that their circumstances are worse. If you asked someone like myself, who has resided off reserve, I would tell you that our circumstances are worse. They are comparable, but just different situations.
I would not begin to speak for people on reserve as I have never lived on reserve. My family is three generations removed from the reserve. I am one of those woman who was enfranchised. Also, I joined the military and was then deemed to be educated, and I married a non-Aboriginal man. There were three strikes against me. However, I can tell you, from what I witness and see every day, the people I am in contact with and the phone calls that I get, in some of the latest reports coming out of the UN, conditions are comparable to those of Third World countries.
Senator Sibbeston: I would be interested to know how bad life is. I am aware of the Aboriginal situation in the north, where I am from. Also, we have been travelling in Western Canada and hearing reports. We get an idea of Aboriginal peoples and where they are. There has been a migration from rural areas to urban ones. Is this happening in New Brunswick? How is life? Canada is a rich country. Does anybody starve?
Ms. Lavallée: In New Brunswick at one time, we had a housing program that was delivered by the federal government. In the late 1990s, they devolved that program to the provincial government. We lost our rural and urban housing.
Those who were at one time able to access post-secondary education or educational benefits, for those of us who were registered, we are no longer able to do that because those programs have been turned over to the band councils, administered by the reserves, the same with our health benefits and access to health services. They have been devolved to the bands.
I can speak for my family. My father had to the travel to Saint John for treatment at the cancer unit and he was denied transportation fees to get back and forth. He is an Aboriginal veteran on a strict budget. There are other horror stories like that out there: not being able to access required medications and so forth.
Many of our people are on social assistance. The intergenerational problems that they had on reserve do not go away. They bring them out to the urban areas and, unfortunately, at NBAPC we do not have the tools to deal with those types of issues. It is unfortunate when we have to make a choice for some of the programs and services that we do have, that we must look in particular, at our Aboriginal human resources development program. You are forced at points to look at a client who has the best chances of success versus the one who does not. It is unfair because sometimes all you need is that little extra child care money to ensure that the child is in a safe environment while the mother does her training or upgrading to get that job to get them off social assistance.
We have the same issues. If you go out and look at some of the housing units, at one point we had people living in tents until our non-profit housing organization got going. If you look at some of the housing units that people are living in now, no other Canadian citizen would live in that. I can tell you that much. They would not live in that type of situation.
What you have found in other communities you will probably find in New Brunswick.
Senator Sibbeston: The federal government spends about $6 billion every year on Aboriginal people. Most of it goes to reserves. We are talking about the Department of Indian Affairs primarily that provides money and programs.
Ms. Lavallée: The mandate of the Department of Indian Affairs is for on-reserve programs. We do not receive funding from Indian Affairs whatsoever for any programs or services. They are not allowed to give us funding because we are not in their fiduciary responsibility.
Senator Sibbeston: Is there a native culture in New Brunswick? I will explain. In the Northwest Territories, if you are an Aboriginal person you are linked to the land. Our ancestors lived on the land, hunted and fished. Many of us, even though we do not hunt and trap anymore, can go on the land.
A month ago I went to Great Bear Lake and hunted with my son. We shot caribou. We went in the bush. In the summer I go on the river. As an Aboriginal person, I can do these things that put me back in touch with the land and my culture. I am wondering, in New Brunswick, is this way of life, the hunting and trapping, living off the land still something that is done by some people and somehow Aboriginal people can say they are linked to that way of life?
You talk about not knowing who you are. I agree, if you live in a city, you would not know who you are. However, if you still have some connection to the land, to that kind of life, you could say you are linked and you speak the language. You could say that you are a native person in reality because you have these qualities and also you have these connections to the land.
Can you say something about that?
Ms. Lavallée: I grew up hunting and fishing in New Brunswick off the land. I did not have store bought food until I was about 17. Yes, most of our people that live in the rural areas and even those who live in the urban centres still hunt and fish. The unfortunate side effect to that for them is that they are charged for doing so. I just paid the last bill of $100,000 for these people to defend themselves in court to practice their Aboriginal rights. That is money that I had to take away from programs.
Senator Sibbeston: Are there still people who live and hunt out in the bush and have that attachment to the land?
Ms. Lavallée: Yes, there are. Even though they might live in the urban areas, Fredericton, Saint John or Moncton, they still have their traditional areas that they probably grew up in. Someone from around Dalhousie or Bouctouche or that area would probably go back to their family area and hunt and fish.
We do have an Aboriginal fishery strategy that allows them some access to food for social and ceremonial purposes.
In my family, my brother hunts for our family group, the deer, and the moose.
Senator Sibbeston: Did you say ``moose''?
Ms. Lavallée: We used to have caribou.
Senator Carney: My first comment is to Ms. Bolger. We notice in this committee that they tend to call the women by their first names and the men by ``mister,'' so I make a point of saying ``Ms. Bolger,'' with the support of our chair, Senator Chalifoux. That is an odd thing that happens.
My first reaction is to Ms. Bolger. I do not know how you do all the things you do for the youth — we are all busy women — and have two Aboriginal children. I am asking you, what is the definition of Aboriginal youth? What age do you have to be, to be a youth?
Ms. Bolger: We look at age 30 and under right now. We have a wide group of youth. I am 27 right now. Many of the kids that are 13 and 14, many of their issues are different than mine because I am a mother. I am almost a professional youth right now.
Senator Carney: What sort of support system do you have with your children? Do you have a family member looking after them?
Ms. Bolger: Yes, I have a very supportive family.
Senator Carney: With respect to your reference to Bill C-31 and as some of the committee members know, I am particularly interested in Bill C-31 because I was one of the 16 women MPs who pushed that legislation through the House of Commons and thought we did a wonderful thing. The few of us who are still around realize that it was flawed legislation and it has created many problems. The issue now is how do you address that.
My question to both of you is: How has Bill C-31 affected youth? This is the first time this issue has come before this committee. Clearly, it has been a factor in the migration as women lost their rights and their housing. They lost their reserve rights and had to migrate to the urban centres, which is the subject of our study. From your experience, can you tell me how this law that we passed has impacted on youth?
Ms. Bolger: Personally, I am a 6(2). I have status, but I am not able to pass it on unless I marry an Aboriginal man with status.
It has affected me personally because I have two daughters. One is status and one is non-status. That will give rise to some big issues because one receives health benefits while the other does not. One might be entitled to post-secondary education through the reserve while the other one will not be. It will create a lot of problems for me personally.
Many of the youth with whom I work are non-status. Therefore, they are not entitled to some of the things to which I am entitled, nor are their children entitled to these things. It is becoming a big issue. It creates a lot of division between us.
Senator Carney: Exactly.
Ms. Bolger: It is difficult sometimes.
Senator Carney: For the record would you explain the divisions because many people do not understand the divisions.
Ms. Lavallée: What many in the general public are not aware of, and what DIAND is not saying too loudly, is that a large part of the population on many reserves is made up of non-status children. It is being said that within 10 to 20 years most of those reserves will be populated totally by non-status children. What will happen then? If that does happen, the minister has the power to go in there and say, ``There are no real Indians living here. Therefore, this reserve is no longer required.'' He can legislate that reserve out of existence. There goes a nation of people.
What really angers me is the latest court decision in R. v. Marshall. In that decision, it is said that the treaty beneficiaries, the modern manifestation of the nation, are the reserves. They will be legislating nations of Aboriginal peoples out of existence within 10 to 20 years. It has to stop.
I am a 6(2). My son is not entitled to registration under the Indian Act. My husband adopted him when we were married. The only way I could have had him registered under the Indian Act was to deny his parental line. Excuse the expression, please, but I would have had to declare my son a bastard to have him registered under the Indian Act. I refused to do that.
We are the only women that I know who have non-Aboriginal babies. If you are a Chinese woman and you have a baby, your child is considered to be Chinese. If you are a Mexican woman and you have a baby, your baby is considered to be Mexican. We are the only women in the world of whom I know that, when we have babies, they are considered not to be of their mother's heritage. I find that repulsive.
Senator Carney: This is an emotional issue. How does that affect property rights, marriage agreements and things like that?
Ms. Lavallée: Because a lot of Aboriginal women were not declaring the parentage of their child, the department has taken steps. They know that 9 times out of 10 the husband is probably a non-Aboriginal person. They now assume the father is white. As a result, that child is penalized.
There are situations right now where, between brothers and sisters, one is registered and one is not. My brother's children would be eligible for registration; my child is not. It is repulsive.
Senator Carney: I am glad this is being discussed publicly. I am glad there is starting to be some public recognition of this matter. I say — and the committee bears with me when I say it — that this is the only group of people in Canada who have lost their Charter rights. The most discriminated group in Canada is Aboriginal women who have lost these rights.
Stephanie, I will now be more informal because I feel we have warmed up a bit in this debate.
When you say that because of Bill C-31 you are literally being legislated out of existence, I understand that. In British Columbia, we are negotiating treaties involving huge resources, huge stretches of land, and stands of timber — everything. My concern is that there may be no Aboriginals, Natives or treaty Indians left in a generation or two. What will happen then? No one can tell us.
We know that Bill C-31 only delayed the assimilation of Aboriginal children and youth a couple of generations. Could you explain for the record what a 6(2) is? After you explain what it is, could you explain how you are literally being legislated out of existence because that affects youth? If they lose their status, where are they?
First, can you explain what is a 6(2) and what is a 12(1)? We have not had a chance to have this discussion because it does not come up often. We tend to be so absorbed in the testimony of the people that we cannot introduce it.
Ms. Bolger: It boils down to blood quantum. My mother would be a 6(1) Indian because her mother and her father are both 6(1) Indians. My mother married a non-Aboriginal man. Therefore, I become a 6(2). In other words, I go down a tier.
My first child was with an Aboriginal man. Therefore, she is a 6(2). She does not lose anything; nor does she gain anything. The father of my other daughter is non-Aboriginal. Therefore, she is a 6(3). She has no Aboriginal status under the Indian Act. Under the Indian Act, she is not an Indian. She will not be able to have Aboriginal children. My kids are brought up more on my mother's side. They were brought up with all the culture and the traditions and knowing that they are an Aboriginal person. However, when they try to get some services, the government is telling them, ``You are not Aboriginal. You do not have status.''
Senator Carney: What is a 6(1)? Is it that they are first generation?
Ms. Bolger: They are 100-per-cent Aboriginal.
Senator Carney: When I was working in the territories, we had to face this all the time.
Ms. Bolger: Before 1985, if a woman was married to an Aboriginal man, she is all of a sudden a 6(1) Indian when she does not have any Indian blood at all.
Senator Carney: What is a 6(2)?
Ms. Bolger: It is half.
Senator Carney: When are you off the band list?
Ms. Bolger: At 6(2).
Ms. Lavallée: We are like cattle. We are being graded, A, B and C. I am a grade C because I am a 6(2).
Senator Carney: What do you mean when you say you are being legislated out of existence?
Ms. Lavallée: There was an issue paper done on the East Coast that concerned the problem of non-status Indian children. They know that after 6(2) you are not considered an Indian by the laws Canada. You are not entitled to registration. You are not acknowledged as being an Indian, period; therefore, they have no responsibility.
It is being said right now that within 10 to 20 years some reserves will be totally populated by children like my son — those who are not entitled to be registered — and Stephanie's one daughter. There are some things that we can control in life. Who our children marry is not one of them. As parents, we all know that. Their cultural upbringing is not taken into consideration. They are just going by blood quantum and how the marriage occurs. There will be reserves that are totally populated by these non-status children. They refer to them as ``ghosties.''
Senator Carney: Ghosties?
Ms. Lavallée: Ghosties.
Senator Carney: These are wonderful witnesses. I am writing this all down.
Ms. Lavallée: That means there will be no real Indian people living there, under the laws of Canada. That is the impact. If there are no real Indian people living on that reserve then what is the need for that reserve, because only Indian people are supposed to be on that reserve.
The Acting Chairman: There would be no Indian people eligible for programs on that reserve.
Ms. Lavallée: What is the sense of having that reserve then?
Senator Carney: In B.C. we do not have reserves and there are no reserves in the Yukon either.
The Acting Chairman: No, we do not have reserves.
Ms. Lavallée: The minister does have the power, under the Indian Act, to legislate that reserve out of existence.
Senator Carney: How does this affect relationships among the youth? One of your daughters is a 6(1) and the other one is a 6(2). I have forgotten what a 12(1) is so could you please remind me?
Ms. Lavallée: Women who married non-Aboriginal men and were forced off the reserves.
Senator Carney: When you have, as you say, one daughter who is a different grade of cow, to use your analogy, how does that affect her relationship with your other daughter?
Ms. Bolger: They are young now so it is not an issue. My youngest will be six in a couple of weeks and my other just turned seven. As they get a little older and start realizing what an Aboriginal person is, and what it means to be Aboriginal, I believe it can affect the relationship. Growing up I was a 6(2). My dad was non-Native. I went to a school where there were many Aboriginal kids and they knew I was not a full Aboriginal person. I was stuck in the middle. For a while it was fine because I was the peacemaker in the middle of the two groups and I brought them together, but at the same time I was never really in one group. It was difficult.
Senator Carney: You have certainly given us a good view.
I wanted to bring to the committee that this is relevant to something else happening in the Senate, which deals with proposed amendments by the minister to the Canadian Human Rights Act. The concern of some of the Aboriginal women who I have talked to recently is that they will make two classes of Canadians under human rights. They will have non-Aboriginal human rights and then they will have Aboriginal human rights. Situations like you describe, where there is a difference between the classifications of Indians, will create a real hodgepodge of problems about what kind of rights different people have. This is a problem that will face us in the Indian Act when it comes before us.
Ms. Lavallée: That is why we have advocated an Aboriginal people's act. We need to take the labels off. Canada played a leading role in the world conference against racism to stop racism. We are promoting racism in Canada by having Aboriginal people labelled with these artificial definitions of an Indian, of 6(0), 6(1), 6(2), non-status, status, on- reserve, off-reserve, Metis. It is time to stop and take a step back, look at the Indian Act like RCAP said, amend it to fit modern realities, and have an Aboriginal peoples act.
At New Brunswick Aboriginal People's Council we participated in the new legislation that is coming out, Bill C-7. One of our most advocated recommendations by the women, the youth and the community people that we communicated and consulted with, was that the Indian Act must be amended. It has to reflect today's realities.
Senator Carney: I have nothing to add to your superb testimony.
Senator Léger: I am shocked to know this. It is the first time in all these meetings that we get so close to the reality, which is the labelling of your two daughters, and your son. This is just unbelievable. That is the first time I heard of 6(2). I already had a hard time trying to pronounce some names of Aboriginal groups because our ears have not been trained.
The Indian Act decides who you are, who your daughter is, Stephanie, and you do not want that. It is so true. I chose to be in the Aboriginal committee because of roots. I thought that if there is a group of people who have roots it is the Aboriginal people. I have roots. I know who I am. I am hearing all of this now, and I am glad we heard this. Is it because you are so few? Seventeen thousand compared to the West, what we have been going through. I find it extremely powerful. That was where my question was, this division and subdivision, but when you are landed in numbers that is too much for me. We have to start with the discussion or the renewal, rather than end it there.
When I was at the Canada Games in Bathurst I had a treat that I had never experienced before. Senator Christensen was present as well. The Aboriginals gave us a wonderful 25-minute performance of something we had never seen in the opening ceremonies before, and I felt pride. You took your rhythm. Some of the reviews said it was a bit long. So what? Let us take it. I saw something most beautiful. It was February 8.
Ms. Lavallée: Some of them were our young people.
Senator Léger: You could feel the pride with the dances. They were all dressed. Thank you for that. I witnessed something very positive.
I was planning on asking where you go to school and whether you have your own school system, but now it seems, when you say things like you are going to be legislated out of existence you are looking ahead and you see that. You do not have your own schools.
Ms. Lavallée: No. Our children attend the public school system throughout the Province of New Brunswick because that is where we live. It is unfortunate. Recently there was a subject started in the high schools called Native studies. Unfortunately the books that were used when I went to school, and in some cases still used, are not exactly the best books for these kids to be reading because some of them are extremely derogatory when it comes to Aboriginal history.
I would like to see the province have Aboriginal peoples like myself, or people who have been involved, helping to develop the curriculum for public schools. They should invite us to get involved.
It is sad but funny, but when I was in the military my own people did not know I was Aboriginal until the day I was due to retire from the Armed Forces and they asked where I was going to work. I told them I was going to work at the New Brunswick Aboriginal People's Council as their economic development officer. They responded by saying they thought I had to be an Indian to work there and when I told them I was an Indian they called me Sergeant Pocahontas.
The general public would not know because everyone thinks an Aboriginal person is dark-haired, dark-eyed and redskinned. Well, guess what? We are not. My one brother has blond hair and hazel eyes; the other one has dark hair and green eyes. I got the leftovers. My son is blond with brown eyes. We have flaming redheads. Again, there is stereotyping.
Senator Léger: I like your suggestion that you would like to take part in Native studies. Governments should hear that. I did like Ms. Bolger saying that she is tired of hearing the bickering between the federal and the provincial governments.
Ms. Lavallée: My life would be so much simpler if they would just go in a room, sit down and come out with a reasonable solution. I could actually start making improvements in my people's lives. I would even settle for them being willing to share. I do not care who takes the responsibility. I would be happy if they just say, ``Look, neither one of us will agree who owns you, but we will sit and work with you cooperatively and try to address some of these issues. We will sit down and discuss a management plan on harvesting so that we can stop this harassment of the people and so that we have good management, taking conservation into hand, so that we can stop spending needless money on lawyers and courts until we figure out this issue.
I would give anything for that. Many of my people depend on moose, dear and fish to make it through a winter in New Brunswick.
Madam, you know exactly what I am talking about. A lot of my people come up from the Acadia Peninsula. The work there is seasonal. New Brunswick is basically a rural area. It is atrocious.
Senator Chaput: I am impressed by the wonderful presentation that the two of you gave us today. I am impressed, and I am shocked, too. I thought I knew some of the reality of Aboriginals, but I did not really.
I would like to thank Senator Carney for her questions. I would not have been able to phrase them that way.
I understand that you would like to have your own schools.
Ms. Lavallée: I do not need my own school. I would be more than happy to work with the provincial government and the federal government to design something that would be within the public school system. I do not want to spend more money for infrastructure. We do live in the towns and villages. I do not want to isolate my people.
Senator Chaput: You would be seeking a school designed to your needs but inside a public system?
Ms. Lavallée: Exactly. I do not want to isolate my people. They do not need to be any more isolated.
Senator Chaput: We talked about an Aboriginal peoples act, and you were saying that if the government could come out with something along the lines of what the royal commission proposed, women and youth would be in favour of it.
If it were presented to Aboriginals across Canada, what percentage of your people would be in favour of such an act? Do you have any idea?
Ms. Lavallée: You would probably have at least 80 per cent of the Aboriginal population in favour of an Aboriginal peoples act, because then they would be recognizing Aboriginal peoples as nations and not reserves.
Many people get sucked in by the term ``First Nations.'' Reserves are not First Nations. There is only about 62 First Nations in Canada.
In New Brunswick there are three First Nations — the Mi'kmaq Nation, the Maliseet Nation and the Passamaquoddy Nation. The 15 reserves within New Brunswick are parts of those nation. They are not nations unto themselves.
If you had an Aboriginal peoples act that was based on nation recognition, you would not have these labels; a Mi'kmaq is a Mi'kmaq, a Maliseet is a Maliseet.
The Acting Chairman: How will you get funding for the programs that you laid out? They are quite extensive programs, from the way you have described them. They are impressive. Where do you get the funding?
Ms. Lavallée: That is only a few. We have quite a few more. We have our basis for the council under the Aboriginal Representative Program from Heritage Canada, which gives us a small core grant per year. We build from that core grant. We have applied through different programs and services over the years. We write proposals and submit them, then go from there.
Any monies raised are raised totally by us. If I give a lecture, the per diem is given to the council for the children's summer camp.
We are inventive in New Brunswick. We have been in existence for 32 years. We own our building in Fredericton. We have a small lease from the Province of New Brunswick for the children's summer camp. It was an old provincial park. All the people in the community volunteer, and the youth act as junior councillors. My mom and dad go out and cook in the kitchen. Essentially it is family and community driven.
I would like to point out that most of this report was written by Ms. Bolger and the youth. I was only the overseer and the suggestion maker. Ms. Bolger and the youth did anything after the black line. I refuse to do their work for them, and I have told them that. I will support them, but I will drag them with me into the 21st century.
The Acting Chairman: In the programs and the school programs with which you are involved, what percentages are male and female. Are there more young women involved than young men? Where is the cut-off? Do you have reasons for that?
I am asking because we have had this topic arise by a number of other presenters. We are trying to get a feel for what it is like across the country.
Ms. Lavallée: In my experience, I have seen more females getting involved in the voluntary sector or in the council. They seem to all take the key role. We were a maternalistic nation. Women were the driving force behind things. We were the backbone of our nations.
I have not seen that change much in our communities off-reserve. We still are the driving force. I am sure my husband would probably put it another way, but we are pushy.
I would have to say in my experience that it has always been women.
The Acting Chairman: In the education system as well?
Ms. Lavallée: To a great degree, yes. Young women like Ms. Bolger are pushing forward.
The Acting Chairman: Our researcher is doing much work for us. She has one question on education.
Ms. Tonina Simeone, Researcher, Library of Parliament: I want to clarify how the Mi'kmaq Education Act applies.
Ms. Lavallée: It does not apply to us.
Senator Pearson: Thank you Senator Carney for raising that issue. It is contrary to the well-being of children to put them in a situation where their identity is at risk for totally arbitrary reasons. Is there another way of addressing it?
People like us who come from multiple backgrounds tend to say, ``I have a Scottish background.'' It is nice to think of that, it should be a question of choice.
You have all these children who suddenly have been cut out. I do not think that everyone would choose to be Aboriginal. However, the choice should be there. If you have any Aboriginal ancestry, you should be able to choose. Is that how you feel?
Ms. Lavallée: Exactly. I am proud of my heritage. My mother is not Aboriginal. If it had not been for her, I would not be standing here today talking to you. She was the driving force behind me. She was one of those women who totally adapted herself to our culture, and pushed us to go out there and be who we are today.
If you look at most of the signatories to our treaties on the east coast, you will find that most of them were people like myself, who were referred to as half-breeds back in those days because they could speak both languages of the people they were negotiating with. It is clear from the monologues and minutes of the treaties that they were there on behalf of their mother's peoples.
Should it be a choice? Most definitely. Every other Canadian citizen has a choice. If children are given the basis, at some point they will have to choose. It is no different from a religion. You can drag your kid to church every week. However, once he leaves your home, the likelihood of him going to church is slim to none. I have been having that discussion lately with my son.
The fact is that you have the ability to instil the basic cultural background. What that child does with it in the future, again, is something that only he can do. If you, as a good parent, make him proud of that background, the likelihood of him denying his heritage or his roots is small — I cannot see it.
Senator Pearson: Thank you for that. I think that has to be on the record. It is a question of choice.
Ms. Lavallée: I would like to thank the committee for having us tonight. I like these opportunities because they allow me to help our youth. Everyone is always hearing from me, but they do not get to hear from the youth. I am pleased to give them the opportunity to come out and experience what it is like for me as a leader in my community. It goes a long way to inspire them to bigger and better things; that it can be done. It makes my job easier when they can see what it is I do on their behalf.
The Acting Chairman: We have had many young people come before us and they all have been above and beyond. We are impressed with them. It gives us a lot of hope, and I am sure it gives you a lot of hope to see that people like Ms. Bolger will be there to help carry on the work that you are doing.
Senator Carney: I wanted to ask the committee members if they would stay behind for a few minutes for me to apprise them of some concerns I have about committee business. It will take only a few minutes but I want you to know. It is directly related to the testimony we heard tonight.
The committee continued in camera.