Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 1 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 23, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources met this day at 5:15 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Ms. Josée Thérien, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive motions.
Senator Cochrane: I move that Senator Banks become the chair of our Energy Committee.
Senator Christensen: I second the motion.
Ms. Thérien: It was moved by the Honourable Senator Cochrane that the Honourable Senator Banks be chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Thérien: I declare the motion carried. In accordance with rule 88, the Honourable Senator Banks is elected chair of this committee.
Senator Tommy Banks (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, honourable senators.
The second item of business is the election of the deputy chair. Is it in order for the chair to make a nomination?
I take pleasure in nominating Senator Spivak as deputy chair of the committee. Does anybody demur from that?
I declare Senator Spivak elected as deputy chair.
Turning to our third order of business, we need a motion for a third member of the committee to be a member of the steering committee.
Senator Spivak: I move that Senator Colin Kenny be the third member.
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Spivak that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and Senator Kenny, and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
Am I correct that that is your motion, Senator Spivak?
Senator Spivak: Yes.
The Chairman: Does anyone wish to speak to the motion?
Is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Carried.
The Chairman: As the fourth item of business, we require a motion that the committee print its proceedings.
Senator Christensen: I so move.
The Chairman: It is moved by Senator Christensen that the committee print its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The fifth motion required is the authorization to hold meetings to print evidence when a quorum is not present. Is everyone familiar with that? It means in effect that the committee may, without a quorum, receive evidence but do nothing else. The committee may receive evidence as long as there is a member of the government and a member of the opposition present at the time.
Senator Watt: Does that include hearing the testimony of witnesses?
The Chairman: Yes, provided there is a member of the opposition and the government present. In that circumstance, evidence may be received.
Senator Watt: I will move that motion.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The sixth motion is that, pursuant to rule 104, the chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session, which will be part of our first report to the Senate.
Senator Kenny: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The seventh motion has to do with research staff. It would be that the chair, on behalf of the committee, asks the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee.
Senator Kenny: There is more to that motion, I believe.
The Chairman: Yes, and that the chair is authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel which may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of bills. The subject matter of bills and estimates as are referred to.
Senator Kenny: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: There is a further motion, which is not numbered correctly, that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, the Steering Committee, be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required for the work of the committee and of the chair on behalf of the committee, and to direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
Senator Kenny: So moved.
The Chairman: Is that motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The eighth motion that we require is the authority to commit funds and to certify accounts. It will read that, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred upon the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee, all three. Pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate of Canada, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee, all three.
Senator Baker: So moved.
The Chairman: Is that motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The ninth item has to do with travel. That is, that the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more member of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Senator Spivak: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The tenth motion is the designation of members. I refer honourable senators to the tenth motion. Read it carefully, please.
This means if we send an honourable senator to a meeting elsewhere, he can be said or she can be said to have been on official business as long as it was sanctioned by the committee. Will someone move that motion?
Senator Christensen: So moved.
The Chairman: Is that motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The eleventh motion is that we authorize the payment of the travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator Buchanan: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The twelfth motion has to do with authorizing us to have our committee proceedings televised with the least possible disruption. Is anyone prepared to make such a motion?
Senator Spivak: I so move. I suggest you get them for tomorrow.
The Chairman: We have no business for tomorrow.
Senator Kenny: On the subject, is it possible to have a witness come before we have an order of reference?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Kenny: Says who?
The Chairman: The clerk tells me we do have an order of reference.
Senator Kenny: Any senator can move an order of reference, and I assume a senator did move that the order of reference.
Ms. Therien: Yes.
Senator Baker: Why is the phrase, ``...the least possible disruption of its hearings'' included?
The Chairman: It is to avoid the commercial interruptions that happen in hockey games. Senator Kenny knows more about televising Senate proceeding than anybody. I will ask him to answer that question.
Senator Kenny: Initially it was difficult to get cameras in. That modification was added to ease the concerns of those members who did not like the idea of television cameras. It is now superfluous, but that is why it is included. It has been included for a long time
Senator Baker: Is it also assumed that, if we do have hearings which the television media might attend, apart from the internal television operations of this place, that they will have some restrictions? Perhaps Senator Kenny could tell us whether they would be under restrictions? Would they have to televise the entire proceedings or would they be allowed, as they are in most modern-day proceedings, to take excerpts from committee proceedings?
The Chairman: The committee can decide whatever it likes.
Senator Baker: Under this motion?
The Chairman: Yes, we could decide on restrictions. What is contemplated here is that the broadcasting and/or recording of the proceedings of this committee be by the Senate television staff and not by anybody else. There may from time to time be CTV people here. That would be a separate question that I undertake to always raise with the committee.
Senator Kenny: In fairness, if this motion is passed, it authorizes the chair to go to the Senate to get permission to bring electronic media in, and then the committee decides how it wants to proceed after that, but not without approval of the chamber. We cannot decide on our own to bring the media in. Once we get approval from the chamber to bring electronic media in, at any time, we then as a group can decide how we want our proceedings to be televised or we can delegate it to the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure or to the chair to make those sorts of decisions, depending on how we want to go about it.
Senator Baker: That sounds like a complicated matter. Will that be done before each committee meeting?
The Chairman: The last paragraph of this says that the subcommittee, the Steering Committee, is empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion, and it could do it with respect, for example, to meetings in a blanket sense after receiving approval from the Senate, with the Senate's own broadcasting recording facilities.
Senator Baker: The subcommittee would be comprised of the chairman, the deputy chairman and Senator Kenny.
Senator Kenny: It is worth at some point, chair, getting the sense of the committee about whether they want coverage or not. If the committee wants to have publicity, then you as chair would start taking steps to do that. In terms of what we see on CPAC, it is relatively simple. Two air packs are available. If there are only two committees asking for it, you get it. If there are three, you have to go back to the whip and the whip will decide which committee will be televised.
In terms of getting in CTV or whoever to record clips or portions of the hearing, it usually requires an awful lot of work on the part of the chair and others to entice them to come — because we have such interesting and vital hearings going on.
They do not just wander in because they hear the sandwiches are free.
Senator Baker: With our present chairman and the makeup of the committee I think the work of the committee will be so enticing and exciting that the media may want, in fact, to attend hearings that we may hold in certain areas of Canada. Our work will involve such interesting subjects that the media will want to cover our hearings.
I raise this matter because the media is somewhat hesitant about attending the committee meetings of the House of Commons. They are not permitted to film segments of the House of Commons committees. They cannot just film a segment of the evidence of the witness and then a couple of questions from the members of committee. It is a standing rule in the House of Commons that they are not permitted to do that. Therefore, the media stay away from committee hearings. Maybe we could discuss this, or the subcommittee could discuss, it to allow television and radio media access to the committee meetings.
Some members think there is a danger in that they would pick and choose. The point is, why not allow them to pick and choose? At some point the discussion should take place and a decision be made. It would be nice if this committee were to lead the way.
Senator Kenny: The practice in this committee and in others, in the past, has been as you suggest. However, some Senate committees do not let anybody in. In the past, this committee has been generous in seeking out exactly the sort of coverage you are talking about.
Senator Baker: Was the committee permitting television cameras to record portions of its hearings?
Senator Kenny: Yes.
The Chairman: I undertake that, notwithstanding that, this motion would permit the Steering Committee to determine when and where and under what conditions that would take place, and the Steering Committee will not make such a decision before the committee as a whole has had a chance to discuss the merits of what you propose. We will not go further than that.
This motion has been moved. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Christensen: Normally, we had CPAC. Will that continue?
The Chairman: I have learned that it is not CPAC. The Senate's air packs deliver the program on tape to CPAC. Senator Kenny informed me of that today. This is our staff.
My view is that we should have as much of our proceedings televised as possible. This motion does, in reference to what Senator Baker has asked about, talk about media.
Senator Christensen: You are giving us the assurance that you will not go to that step until we all discuss it thoroughly and hear all views.
The Chairman: Is the motion agreed to?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion has to do with a special study. This is the omnibus motion under which we will ask the Senate for authorization for the chair to seek a general mandate from the Senate to study issues relating to energy, the environment and natural resources generally. That is the wording of a motion of this kind, and that authorization was obtained by this committee previously. I propose that it is prudent that we make it as broad as we can, as is the case with this motion. Would anyone care to move that motion?
Senator Baker: I so move.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I refer members to item No. 14 on your agenda, which is the time slot for regular meetings. These are, as you will recall, the times and places which had been assigned to this committee. Are these times, that is to say, Tuesday when the Senate rises but not before 5 p.m. and Thursdays from 8:30 to 10:30 a.m. all in this room agreeable to senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Would someone make the motion?
Senator Cochrane: I have to check to see. 5 p.m. may be a conflict for me on Tuesday.
Senator Christensen: What is your other commitment?
Senator Cochrane: Fisheries. It is going back to 5 p.m., I understand.
The Chairman: We were assured during negotiations that the leadership took care to ensure no conflict. Until we find there is a conflict, is this motion agreeable?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Spivak: Will there be a meeting tomorrow?
The Chairman: We will now deal with that issue. I thought we might want to deal with it in camera, since this is now being recorded. We might want to discuss other things as well, including the next order of business. If that is agreeable with members, I will declare that the meeting is now adjourned and we will discuss other business and other matters in camera.
The committee continued in camera.