Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 15 - Evidence - Afternoon meeting
KELOWNA, British Columbia, Tuesday, September 29, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 1:16 p.m. to study the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples and on other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada (topic: issues pertaining to Indian Act elections).
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: I call the meeting to order. The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples is studying the issue of Indian Act elections, in part based on concerns raised by First Nations that the requirement under the Indian Act to have elections every two years makes it difficult for the leaders of First Nations to set a long-term strategic direction, as well as to plan for and implement sustainable processes, before they must face another election.
Before I recognize our witness, we have with us Senator Campbell, from British Columbia, Senator Dyck, from Saskatchewan, Senator Nancy Greene Raine, also from British Columbia. I am Gerry St. Germain, from British Columbia.
We have with us this afternoon Larry Derrickson from the Westbank First Nation, who has done extensive work in the area of First Nations. I will let him describe some of the work in which he has participated in working for a better country for our First Nations people.
Without further ado, Mr. Derrickson, the floor is yours.
Larry Derrickson, Councillor, Westbank First Nation: Thank you. It is an honour to be here, and I am glad to see the Senate coming into our territory here to actually do some work on band elections. It is a huge area, as the chairman has mentioned. What we have done in Westbank is that we have achieved a self-governing agreement with Canada that actually gives us authority, as a government, within the meanings of ``government'' within Canada. This was a bilateral negotiation with Canada only, without the provincial jurisdiction being involved, because we are looking at downloading the powers that Canada has been basically babysitting on our behalf. It has taken us about 15 years, in total, to get to where we are today, so that was an excellent outcome.
One of the concerns I would raise is to get the band elections actually recognized within our communities, involving some of the issues that have arisen in the past. I brought a report along; it is the only one that I have and dates back to the mid-1980s. It is a report of a public inquiry into the wrongdoings at the Westbank Indian Band, as it was known at the time. We have changed our name to Westbank First Nation, now. Out of that report arose about 110 criminal charges that could have been laid against the former chief and councillors at that time, through this process. I think we laid about five charges out of that number. For the rest, we figured we would just lay off on them, because to pursue them all would have kept us in court forever.
One of the things that Judge Hall mentioned in this report that really sticks out is that what we needed in Westbank was a government of laws, not a government of men. That is what we have achieved today through our self- government agreement. We do have our own laws that regulate and control how council operates, and we can now actually come and participate in meetings and have the assurance that the community is supporting you.
This, then, is our self-government agreement with Canada. In fact, when our legislation was going through Parliament, one of the members of Parliament stood up and told the audience in Parliament that what Canada needed was an instrument such as we have created for Westbank to govern ourselves, because it is totally open and transparent. Everything we do within our government is on our web page, and you can go there and look at that. Everything is there, all of our finances, all of what council is paid, how we all get paid. If I go to a meeting and a gift is given to me, I must bring that back to council. I just cannot keep that gift. It must be recorded through the council minutes, so there are lots of protections in there.
The only problem I do see coming out of this process, going to that extreme into a new government, is that there are lots of protections included in there that really hand-tie government. We are working on those now. We need to take them back to the community, to actually have a referendum to make amendments to our self-government agreement or to our constitution, because the elected chief and council cannot do that on their own. It has to be done through the community so that the community is fully aware of why we are changing things and what the reasons are behind those changes.
Some of the issues are, especially, financial issues: For example, the council only has the authority to spend up to $500,000. Anything more than that has to be ratified by a full referendum, with the whole community being advised of what that money is to be used for, and all the purposes for which it is needed. If it is to be used for underground servicing that we need, or for building new reservoirs for our water systems, that does need to go to the whole community. If the community supports that expenditure, then we move forward from there.
There is a great deal of history, as I said, if you can ever find a book on that that really spells out why we are here as we are today with the self-government agreement, that is just for the protection of the community.
As we were going through that process, before the public inquiry was called, one of the real concerns that we had was that only the elected chief and council were recognized by government, or by the Department of Indian Affairs. The membership had no voice. If we had concerns, we would write to the minister saying that there were concerns and that we would like things recalled to actually come back to the community. The department would just forward everything back to the elected chief and council, so our concerns just got buried at that time.
Through the self-government agreement, you might say that that corporate veil is now removed. The chief and council today can be sued; there are no ifs, ands, or buts. Under the Indian Act, we could not achieve that. The corporate veil was there to protect the elected council. What we have done now within our community is to remove that veil to where the elected council and the chief can be sued and held accountable, 100 per cent, by our members.
With respect to elections, what I would say is that two years is way too short for any elected chief and council. By the end of the second year, the new council members are just starting to find their feet. They are just about able to be helpful within the decision-making process of the government of, say, the Westbank First Nation. We changed that to a three-year term, but all council stands for re-election at the end of that three-year term. The only caveat I have is that I would love to have had a two-year term but with staggered elections, so that there is always some continuity within the office.
We have changed; we are no longer an Indian Act band. We are actually a government that runs government functions. I guess, as an example, we can actually create laws in Westbank that can supersede those of the Province of British Columbia. That is why we really need continuity within our administration, in order to make sure that the system runs properly and fairly for everybody.
What else can I say about this situation? It is a huge concern, I think, for every Aboriginal community within the province. There has been talk all along about achieving self-government agreements for other First Nations. One of the concerns I have now is in working with some of the other treaty self-governing bands, since they are being treated differently than how we now are in Westbank. There is one band out of the Northwest Territories right now who are trying to achieve the taxation powers that Westbank now has. The Department of Indian Affairs is actually holding them back, because that system is working for Westbank. They want to change and revisit that system, and you cannot now achieve what Westbank did when we got into our agreement. There are areas like that, unfortunately, where you will see a First Nation under a new arrangement with Canada actually moving forward in the way it should be moving forward, but as soon as they achieve that goal, the department starts putting on the brakes and saying, ``Well, you cannot go as far as Westbank did,'' for example.
With regard to taxation, for any government in Canada, you will never become a government if you do not have the power to tax. One of the huge issues that we have looked at in Westbank is: How do you make your government work into the future? You need financial stability to move forward and that is one area that we have achieved with taxation through the treaty process. The department is now trying to use that as an on-source revenue, but it is not; it is actually a government revenue, so they need to watch how they play that role, too. I know that we are fighting over that right now with our FTA negotiations.
The Chair: Would you define what FTA is?
Mr. Derrickson: I am sorry, that is the financial transfer arrangements with the Department of Indian Affairs. We operate on a five-year block of funding with small escalators every year, just to keep up to the cost of living. As we in Westbank can show you fairly easy, the FTAs do not go far enough to actually allow our government to govern. It is, I guess, more of a service-providing transfer than anything else; just enough to keep you where you are at.
Westbank achieved property taxation back in 1992 — I think that was the first year that we collected. From that point on, we were less of a burden to the government of Canada, or to the department administering the Indian Act, where we now actually provide our own services. Now we are more a municipality-style government than we were as an Indian band, because now we can actually leverage long-term debt borrowing, as any other municipality can, in order to put in services such as water, roads, street lighting, storm sewers — you name it. That is a huge benefit to the community of the Westbank First Nation.
That situation, however, also led us into another problem, and we were in Ottawa about six months ago trying to get some relief on that as well with Industry Canada. We are regarded as an Indian band, but we are also regarded as though we are standing on our own two feet, so we cannot now acquire capital dollars of any significant value through the Department of Indian Affairs to help assist with water, roads, sewers — all of those issues. We met with Industry Canada, and that was the first time an Aboriginal community had ever asked them that question. Because we are self- governing and we do have a tax base, we now fit within the Industry Canada definition to be able to go after the municipal loans that any other government body can actually achieve. That was a big break, there. We have not yet achieved it, but it is in the works. Industry Canada have said that they would be looking at making some legislative changes to have Aboriginal communities like us fit more into the Industry Canada role as well, and still have the ability to go through the Department of Indian Affairs, to a smaller extent. We understand that there are other Aboriginal communities in Canada that need those dollars more than we do. We can achieve our goals in other fashions because we can pay one third of the cost and, like any other government, actually achieve all of these services.
How is my timing there, Mr. Chairman?
The Chair: Pretty good. Are you at the end, Mr. Derrickson?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. If you want to open it up for questions, I like being interactive.
The Chair: Mr. Derrickson, as you can gather, is a councillor in Westbank. So that all of the senators understand, you have how many non-Aboriginal people on your reserve, 8,000?
Mr. Derrickson: No, we are just approaching 10,000.
The Chair: How many units is that, approximately?
Mr. Derrickson: Probably just in the neighbourhood of 2,700 to 3,000.
The Chair: Twenty-seven hundred to 3,000 residences that are on leases to non-Aboriginal people, and what is the population of your band?
Mr. Derrickson: We are approximately 670.
The Chair: On-reserve and off-reserve?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, that is both on and off. I think we have 430 on-reserve and the rest are off-reserve.
Senator Campbell: Do you think that your governance model could be used as a template for others?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, I believe it could be transferable to other Aboriginal communities. It may not totally fit, but the majority of it would because each community has its own identity, so you have to take that factor into account as well.
Senator Campbell: But, generally speaking?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, it would.
Senator Campbell: Are you, as a government, able to apply, for instance, for infrastructure money from the federal government?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, and we are working on that now through Industry Canada.
Senator Campbell: You could not before?
Mr. Derrickson: No.
Senator Campbell: Why?
Mr. Derrickson: Because when we were looked at, we were regarded as an Aboriginal group, not a self-governing group, by the Department of Indian Affairs.
Senator Campbell: So it was Indian Affairs that looked at this situation, but there is no question in your mind that you now have self-government?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Campbell: There is no question, I take it, within the Canadian government mind that you are now self- governing?
Mr. Derrickson: It is just actually starting to hit the surface here, now. For example, the provincial government is saying that they do not recognize us as a self-governing community, but the federal government enacted us as a government, so we are a government.
Senator Campbell: What happens if you decide that you are a municipality?
Mr. Derrickson: We are higher than that, actually.
Senator Campbell: I know, but let us just say, for argument's sake, that I wanted to get a third of federal money, a third of provincial money and to do that, we call ourselves a municipality. It could be anything you want. I am really confused; I do not understand; it makes no sense to me that you have this unbelievable treaty that is one-on-one. The province did not really do anything. They just said, ``Whatever you do, you go ahead and do it and we will figure it out later.'' Now when it comes time for you to be in that position with taxes, with infrastructure money, with everything else that you would expect from somebody else in Canada, there seems to be a balking going on. What I want to know is: Is that systemic Indian Affairs, or is that Canadian government?
Mr. Derrickson: No, right now it is the Canadian government. We are pushing a little further than the Department of Indian Affairs now because, as I say, six months ago we actually met with the Department of Indian Affairs and with Industry Canada, and this was the first time that either of those levels of government or areas actually heard the question that we do not fit into Aboriginal government because we have our own revenue, and Industry Canada is just now realizing, ``Yes, you are a government,'' and we can apply, so that is being worked on right at the moment.
Senator Campbell: Do you have the capability of having in-camera meetings?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Campbell: You said that your spending limit without a referendum is half a million dollars right now?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Campbell: Would you just have that removed, or would you have a cap put on it?
Mr. Derrickson: I would actually leave it as it is. To me, that is not the issue. Your members have to know, like in any municipality.
Senator Campbell: Yes.
Mr. Derrickson: It is the other areas within the administration where it hand-ties us because of the limitations. Council can spend up to a half a million dollars —
Senator Campbell: Right.
Mr. Derrickson: — but that is only council. The rest of the authorities within our areas can only spend up to $5,000.
Senator Campbell: Right.
Mr. Derrickson: So now, that creates a function problem.
Senator Campbell: Every three years, when we have an election, we bring in what is called a capital budget.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Campbell: We put in the infrastructure spending — it might be schools, it could be waterworks, roads or whatever, but it goes in there and it is all listed and people get to vote on it.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Campbell: You would still be happy with a half a million limit and the ability to referendum at election?
Mr. Derrickson: Well, not at election.
Senator Campbell: Just a separate referendum?
Mr. Derrickson: It is totally separate, just specific to the issue.
Senator Campbell: It is very expensive to hold separate referendums.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, but it is really open to the community. At least they know what it is for, and that is where we get our direction from, our community. It is a protection issue.
Senator Dyck: When you were talking, I was not clear on whether you were saying that currently your elections are held every three years?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Dyck: Would you say that the way in which your elections are set up is similar to what would be called the custom elections under the Indian Act, or would it be perhaps more complicated or more in-depth?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. I think ours is more modelled after municipal elections, so that every three years you are up for election. Yes, custom, I think, would have been a little bit different.
Senator Dyck: The Westbank self-governing bill was only passed, what, about two or three years ago?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, in 2005.
Senator Dyck: You have had one election?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Dyck: Within that election, you did not see any problems with any kind of need for appeals or recalls?
Mr. Derrickson: No, it is really clearly marked out within our constitution how the elections are handled, so everybody has a job to do. Throughout our elections, for ourselves and for the rest of council members who are running for election, you need criminal records checks both in Canada and the U.S. Then if you have a conviction for anything, you are automatically eliminated for your ten years to run.
Senator Dyck: You were giving the breakdown in terms of the on- and off-reserve numbers, and I did not quite hear what you said about the number of people who live on reserve versus the number who live off reserve.
Mr. Derrickson: Roughly 430 of our members live on reserve, that is men, women and children, and then the rest of them are in all other areas of the country, even the United States.
Senator Dyck: That would be the vast majority, by the sounds of it. If I heard you correctly, it sounded like you had 6,700?
Mr. Derrickson: No. 670.
Senator Dyck: Oh, 670. No wonder. My ears are not as good as they used to be. Then in your elections, you have mechanisms built in to keep track of mail-in ballots? Presumably you have mail-in ballots.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, we do. That is all handled separately. Again, when we hire the person to come in to run our elections, only that person has access to the mail-in ballots. We set up a box in Westbank where they actually collect all the ballots and those are held separately.
Senator Dyck: You hire someone to do that, and would that person be someone who is a non-resident?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. Well, what we were looking at, to kind of save costs in the first two elections that we actually held, we hired Gina Beddome. I do not know if anyone knows her. She is out of Prince George, so we had to fly her in and put her up in accommodations. What we are looking at doing now is using the person who does the elections for Peachland or West Kelowna. They are local, so we can actually save costs and they can go home every night, and things like that. It has to be somebody totally at arm's length from our administration.
Senator Dyck: Three years seems to be the term that, so far, works well for you?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. The only concern I have with the three-year term — which is no different, really, than the two- year term — is that all of council is up for election at the same time. I would rather see two-year staggered terms where, when you are elected, you are in there for four years, but have elections every two years, only for half of council. Continuity within our organization right now, because we are a pretty young government starting to work, somebody has to understand all the ins and outs of what we are doing and where we are going.
Senator Dyck: If you decided that you wanted to change to a four- or a five-year term, you can do that according to your constitution?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, we could. We would need to take it to a referendum of the membership.
The Chair: You stated that, prior to Westbank's self-government agreement, the only people who were recognized were the chief and council, and that the community members were basically ignored. Can you elaborate on that and explain how political accountability between leadership and the citizens are strengthened through this agreement? I think it is fairly obvious, but maybe you could explain so that we have it on the record.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. Prior to us going to self-government, the things we really found out with the Department of Indian Affairs when we were going through the early 1980s, the chief and council would not explain anything, particularly financially, about what they were doing with anything at all. Some of the community members actually found out some of the things that were taking place, such as investments and things like that, that should be going to the community, because you are using community funds to actually invest in these investments. There was nothing. One example is Northlands Bank. I think everybody here is aware of what happened with the Northlands Bank. We lost $14 million in that situation.
The Chair: Fourteen million.
Mr. Derrickson: I was the chief on council of the day that just put the money in there. We were not aware of it. There was no discussion with the communities. The first we found out about the situation was through the newspapers. It is issues like that that have really huge complications for the clear, open style of government that we are running today. We cannot do that.
Getting back to the Northlands Bank situation, there was another investment made fairly recently, in the late 1990s, into Biolabs. We then again lost another three and a half million dollars roughly, according to the chief and council of the day at that point in time. Now you are getting pretty close to our self-government enactment date.
Issues like that, we raised them with the Department of Indian Affairs. As you heard this morning from the other speakers, there is no accountability by the chief and council. They just rule the roost. We sent letters over to the Minister of Indian Affairs. What they would do is just send it back to the elected chief and council of the day, so nothing ever came back to the members who were doing the complaining about the issues of accountability and fair, open government.
What we did in 2005, obviously through the self-government enactment, was that the community created a constitution in accordance with our self-government agreement that spells out clearly the roles and responsibilities of the elected council. We must do criminal records checks to even have our name put on the ballot. If you do not pass that, you are ineligible to run.
The openness of our government, as I was saying earlier, we do go to the community and actually have our budgets passed at the beginning of the year for infrastructure needs. They do get to review all of that. We must explain it all to them in detail. Whatever it is, if it is not on the budget, it does not happen. We must then postpone that item until the following budget year to ensure that it is on there. You can go on the computer right now, if you wanted, and you can see all of the financial information of WFN. That is how open the government is now.
The Chair: That is great. I am sure you are all familiar with the Northland Bank; in the early 1980s, they went bankrupt. There was Canadian Commercial Bank, I think, as well, or one other bank in Edmonton, that went bankrupt.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Raine: How does the Westbank First Nation relate to the greater Okanagan First Nation, if you like?
Mr. Derrickson: We are one of the seven bands within the Okanagan Nation Alliance, so we do participate as much as possible. I guess the only drawback there is that we can participate, but we need to really watch where we are going because of our government authority. We can be part of it, but our government is again different, since we actually have government authority. We need to watch the parameters of how we agree to stuff, rather than being seen as downloading our authority to an interest group. That does create a little bit of trouble there, but it is nothing that actually stops you from participating. It is just something that you need to monitor fairly carefully.
Senator Raine: Carrying on with that, some of the other communities inside the tribal council are talking about revenue sharing on part of the resource revenue in the community's territory. Perhaps they are looking basically at the Aboriginal territory as opposed to band lands?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Raine: Are you working on that with the Okanagan Alliance?
Mr. Derrickson: Right now there are two separate things going on. The Okanagan Nation Alliance is working on making resource revenue sharing agreements with participating parties — B.C. Hydro, minerals, gravel extraction, things like that. What Westbank First Nation has done, when we walked into the treaty process, is we have an agreement signed between Canada and the Province of British Columbia on a government claim area, so we have kind of zoned off a piece of the Okanagan Nation Alliance traditional territory in which we are trying to operate our government. Again, this goes back to how do you make your government sustainable, and that is through resource revenue sharing, mineral rights and all that. If you look at our treaty side of things, you will see that little rectangle within the Okanagan Nation Alliance's area. There is no way we can ever settle a treaty without going back to the Okanagan Nation Alliance, because those are Okanagan members, as are we. We would have to get their closure on any kind of a treaty arrangement. Because B.C. and Canada accepted that rectangle as a government claim area, we are operating as that, just so we can keep our government functional.
Senator Raine: In a sense, you have already settled the smaller piece of the traditional land as your territory under your self-government?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. Our self-government pertains only to existing reserve lands. What we are trying to do is move that governing body out, as any other government has, over mineral rights, timber rights. The thing with those rights, as I am sure everyone is aware, is that 105 per cent of the province of British Columbia is under claims. What we would be looking at for Westbank is something similar to what Ontario does, because anywhere in the province of Ontario, Aboriginals do not pay provincial sales tax. That is an area that should be looked at here within the province of British Columbia because of the treaty claim that is hanging over top of the whole province, so that is just another avenue.
Senator Raine: Westbank is lucky, in a way, because of your strategic location where there is demand for housing from non-native people. What percentage of your band's revenue comes from the 10,000 or so non-natives?
Mr. Derrickson: Two-thirds.
Senator Raine: The rest of the revenue comes from your taxation?
Mr. Derrickson: No, from our FTA, our financial transfer agreement. We pay for two-thirds of our own government.
Senator Raine: The financial taxation agreement is with INAC?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes, it is a financial transfer agreement. Yes.
Senator Raine: Yes. The people who live on the Westbank First Nation in those houses, do they pay taxes to the band?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Raine: They pay a lease plus the taxes?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. If you look at a big development, what usually happens is that there is a head lease, so one company comes in and pays for the head lease to the member whose property it was on, and then they do subleases from there. They actually pay for their homes up front, just through mortgages, or whatever. It is no different than off- reserve, but it is on leased lands.
Senator Raine: Then they pay taxes as if they were municipal taxes.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Raine: That covers the services and the water, sewer, fire protection, normal municipal services?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. The WFN, when we collect the taxes, we have a negotiated services arrangement with the regional district and with the City of Kelowna for other things that we need. Garbage is a huge one, as a prime example; we pay that to the regional district. Fire, ambulance, RCMP, 9-1-1, those are all contractual arrangements that we have negotiated with the surrounding districts.
The Chair: I urge the senators to stay on the electoral subject, if we can.
On the electoral system, can you see the day when possibly the Okanagan tribal council will have an ombudsman, a chief electoral officer, that all the First Nations within that tribal council can draw from so that you are not incurring a huge expense and there is a certain amount of consistency in the tribal council? Which would be arm's length, of course.
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. At the moment, I could not see that happening. Westbank, again, is a prime example: We are a government. The rest of them are still Indian Act bands. When, at some point in time, the Department of Indian Affairs or Canada actually allows the other groups to negotiate a self-government arrangement such as ours, then we can actually work together on those and have the same line of authority. Yes, that would be something I could see in the distant future coming together.
The Chair: Further to a question I think was posed by Senator Campbell, we have had before the Senate, on several occasions, enabling legislation on self-government. In it there is the elections process, the constitution and the electoral process, basically what you have achieved. You said that you thought that yours could be used as a template. Do you think that this is a good idea towards resolving some of these electoral issues, that if the legislation was there, laid out in a constitution — which is there. We drafted it. My office drafted this. It was s.16 in its last version — do you believe that this would assist the First Nations in gaining better governments and better electoral practices?
Mr. Derrickson: Well, what you could do is pull out the governing side of our agreement. The government could be transferable to other Aboriginal governments. Some of the things we have in our agreement, because of our location and other things, may not work, but it gives you a good heads-up on what could work for you.
About four years ago now, I actually had the assistance of the Aboriginal minister from the Province of Saskatchewan. He actually came to Westbank and we sat down for a good part of a day, asking the same question. The Province of Saskatchewan was actually looking at how could this actually work for the groups around their urban areas as well. In other words, we have a province actually interested in seeing if they could achieve the same thing.
It is a great stepping stone; it gets you there a little bit quicker. As I say, it does not have to be exactly what we have, you can vary it, but it gives you a good sense of government.
Senator Dyck: In terms of eligibility to vote under the Indian Act, there is a definition of who is or who is not an Indian person so, in your case, do you decide who can vote or does it still go by the Indian Act?
Mr. Derrickson: No, as long as you are of the age of 19, it does not matter if you live on-reserve or off-reserve; you are eligible to vote. You do not have to show up at the polls; it is all mail-in ballots.
Senator Dyck: But do you need to be registered?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes. Yes.
Senator Dyck: You still need to be registered?
Mr. Derrickson: That is just part of the Government of Canada's rules.
Senator Raine: The people who actually live on your land, the lessors, do they have a form of local voice? How do they relate?
Mr. Derrickson: That is a really good question. The first law that we had to produce when we became self-governing on April 1, 2005, was in relation to the advisory council. Four members of the non-native population run for office on the advisory council that actually sits with us and discusses with the chief and council issues that impact them, or could impact them, when we are creating laws. They have a lot of input into our law creation and how it actually works for the whole community. In other words, there are non-native residents within our community who are elected to sit with us and have their voices heard.
Senator Raine: Two members, did you say?
Mr. Derrickson: Four.
Senator Raine: Four members?
Mr. Derrickson: Yes.
Senator Raine: How many members do you have altogether on your council?
Mr. Derrickson: Five; a chief and four councillors.
Senator Raine: The advisory committee is not on the council?
Mr. Derrickson: No. That is a whole separate body. But it is a law of Westbank that there has to be an advisory council.
Senator Raine: That is a good idea.
Mr. Derrickson: As you are saying, it protects the interests of the non-native residents.
Senator Raine: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Raine.
Unfortunately for some of us, we were part of this process and it was really something to watch how professionally Westbank handled their file. There was Senator Ross Fitzpatrick, myself and others who were privileged to work on this file, and when you really looked at the agreement, they had covered the question that you just asked. This was a point that was brought forward at the committee, I believe. Westbank have shown good, sound business acumen and they want their clientele, which are the leaseholders, to be as happy as they possibly can be.
If there are no further questions, I would like to thank you, Councillor Derrickson, for appearing before us and enlightening us with your experience, both before you had your self-government agreement and now that you have. We wish you continued success and give my best regards to Chief Robert Louie and the rest of council.
Mr. Derrickson: I will do that.
The Chair: I would say that I think I speak on behalf of all senators when I ask you to pay our respects to the chief and the rest of council.
Mr. Derrickson: As I said, it was an honour to address this issue. Thank you.
The Chair: It was an honour to have you.
Senators, I would like a motion that would name Senator Campbell as acting chair for our meeting on Friday.
Senator Dyck: Very well.
The Chair: It is so moved. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Opposed, if any?
Carried.
We will now commence our open mic session and welcome our first witness.
Joanne Teegee, Saik'uz First Nation, as an individual: Mr. Chair, I just wanted to touch bases briefly on the subjects of accountability and transparency within a First Nation. It is regarding when the Carrier-Sekani Family Services took over the health services provision for our band. What happened was that my sister had been working under the band administration as a childcare worker for 25 years, and when the transfer occurred, the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council only gave her five years of pension. She lost 20 years and I think that justice was not served there. I just wanted to make a comment regarding that because it occurs all the time. I do not know why she did not sue the family services. I think she did not want to create divisions or anything, but I just wanted to let you know what exists.
The Chair: This is the tribal council?
Ms. Teegee: No, I am referring to Carrier-Sekani Family Services.
The Chair: Who is that administered by, is it the Carrier-Sekani Bands?
Ms. Teegee: Yes. The First Nations are members, like the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council.
The Chair: Yes.
Ms. Teegee: You know the members?
The Chair: Yes.
Ms. Teegee: Yes. And they look after whoever they have a memorandum of understanding with, an agreement.
The Chair: They had a family services operation, which your sister worked in for 25 years?
Ms. Teegee: Yes, she worked for the band for 25 years, but when it was transferred to the family services, she lost 20 years. I just wanted to let you know what goes on at the First Nations government level.
The Chair: Have you any ideas as to how this could be prevented? Would you want an ombudsman so that if somebody is treated in that fashion, they do not have to necessarily go through the courts? In British Columbia, they have an ombudsperson so that if government is not dealing with an issue fairly, rather than go to court, you can go to the ombudsman and get a ruling. I am wondering whether you have any ideas of what you would like to see in place to prevent this type of thing from recurring.
Ms. Teegee: I think an ombudsman would be the way to go, but you know how many nations there are across Canada? It has to be probably a big entity to look after all the First Nations. I think it would be a way to go, but how long will it take for them to look at each case, each of the circumstances or complaints? I guess it would be complaints.
Senator Raine: I guess what I am hearing, then, is that there is an issue in that there is not an easy way for people who have had injustices done to them to seek redress at this point?
Ms. Teegee: Right.
The Chair: There is no question that your concerns are concerns of other First Nations across the country that we hear about. The solution, as Councillor Derrickson has said, is self-government, because once you have self- government, you have a constitution and you have governance so that if any irregularities take place, the legislation governance has the proper remedies.
In any event, we have this on record, and this is sort of an area that is all on its own, but it is not to be ignored, and we appreciate your bringing this information forward.
Ms. Teegee: Thank you for listening.
Senator Raine: Your band is, I believe, under custom election code right now?
Ms. Teegee: We have not signed a treaty, so is that still under the Indian Act?
Tonina Simeone, Analyst, Parliamentary Information and Research Service, Library of Parliament: Even though a First Nation has not signed a treaty, they may be under Indian Act election or custom election, because the Indian Act actually provides for both.
Ms. Teegee: They have not decided yet whether they intend to develop the custom election code. It is still up in the air. They are considering that the 12,000 was not enough to carry it out.
Senator Raine: If they are looking at the custom election code, would they want to put into that an ability for people to recall councillors or the chief if they were not delivering the proper leadership?
Ms. Teegee: Well, that is what I was hoping would happen, but I have missed the first meeting that was not properly advertised regarding the custom election code, and they have not had enough input from community members.
Senator Raine: Right now, is your band under third-party management?
Ms. Teegee: Yes, it is.
The Chair: Does anyone else in the audience wish to approach the microphone?
Good afternoon. Please state your name?
Virginia George, Elder, Saik'uz First Nation, as an individual: I am an elder from Saik'uz First Nation. My daughter is Joanne and I have been supporting her in talking about changes to the Indian Act.
What I am concerned about in the Indian Act is with our First Nations people, they need more communication and they need accountability and transparency and honesty from the chief and the council. They need to be good leaders to lead our people, especially the next generation that is coming up, the young people. That is who I am thinking of, my grandchildren and great-grandchildren. First you must start with us, with the leaders, to show a good example to our people, and then the children will follow.
Also to communicate with our white brothers and to sit down at a table and to bring up issues peacefully. For me, how it works with my family, first it starts with the Lord, and that is my belief, with the Lord, and then the family, the husband and wife, and then the community. That is how we see it in our native culture, our native ways. It is so important to have unity within the family and with one another and to listen and to be concerned about one another.
Our people, they have been distrusting the white people, like the government, because they made a lot of promises and never kept them. That is why you do not see anybody here. You need to build that trust again for one another, to trust one another. The government, they have been giving us so much laws to go by, but our people, the native First Nations, they have laws. They have laws of their own. First it is the Creator, God, and then the family and then the community, and also to communicate with one another and to take care of the land and to respect it.
Right now you can see that the pine beetle is taking over the pine trees. That is of real concern to me. What I have been hearing is that those who are cutting down the trees, the forestry, they are wasting too many trees. They are not thankful for what they have. We should be thankful for all the trees that are left. For me to be thankful to the Lord, that is what I do, and I thank him for every day and to love one another and care for one another.
I have been to residential school. I went through that, but I keep pressing on. I do not want to look at the past. If I look at the past, it is going to pull me down, so I have to live for today because I do not know what tomorrow will bring. I just want to share with you that for the native people, my people, they need first to trust in God and then they can trust in one another, and that is how I make my life. It is just an example of what I do, but each of you have your own mind as to what you want to do. You see the world, what is happening. There are wars, earthquakes and everything elsed going on in this world and I am here to tell you that the Lord is coming soon and just get ready for him. He alone will take over the world. He is a great big God and you should just be ready in your heart and look into him for everything. He will give you wisdom, understanding and knowledge, if you ask him. He will. How to run the government. It is all in the Word of God. I care about you all; that is why I am sharing this with you, and that is all I have to share. Thank you for listening to me.
The Chair: Thank you for sharing with us your feelings and your knowledge as an Elder. It certainly is not falling on deaf ears because many of us who have been on this committee for a while, like Senator Campbell, Senator Dyck and myself, Senator Raine, have an understanding of how complex the issue is, but also how important it is that we as legislators do the right thing.
Senator Dyck: Thank you very much for your presentation, Elder George. I am wondering, in your experience, have you seen any changes in the way your First Nation is governed over your lifetime? Do you think it is getting better?
Ms. George: Well, first it has to start within us and then our family and then you start seeing the change. Before I used to drink and take drugs, and that all has to do with how I was raised, from the residential school. But that is just an excuse. I had to go forward. First it starts with the parents and then the family, and then the chief and council. They need to run the business of the band with honesty and integrity and be accountable and be a good role model for our people. That is when you will see a change.
A long time ago, we never used to live on money; we used to live off the land. We lived off the wild moose and the fish, and we never saw any money, and we were happy and we were healthy. There was no alcohol or anything, no gambling, nothing. We used to go from place to place to fish and we thanked our Lord for everything. Now it is changing. There is so much change since the alcohol came and the drugs, and we need to help our young people.
There are some programs that help and some do not. I have a brother who went to treatment and he came out after a week and it never helped him. You need to study the programs that are put out and see which one works for them, how many per cent of them are alcohol-free, and stayed alcohol-free, and then you know what really works.
What works for me is the Lord. He changed my life. I used to be an alcoholic, drug addict and never raised my children. My daughter raised them because I had to work, I had three jobs to work, but I drank, too. Once I accepted the Lord in my heart, asked him to forgive me for my sins, my life start changing there. He started changing me. It did not happen all at one. In the spiritual realm, it happened quickly, but in my habits, such as drinking, it took time. I had to say no, you know.
There was a bottle of wine one Christmas, and I looked at it and it sure sparkled and tempted me. What am I going to do? Am I going to take that drink or am I going to spill it? I had to make that choice. I took that wine. Oh, my mouth was getting so watery and I wanted to drink it. It was right against this and I picked it up and I had to make that choice if I should spill it or not, and then I spilled it, and I never touched alcohol after that. The Lord helped me, too, and he is the only one who is going to help us.
This world is going to get worse. You see what is happening. It is getting worse, but God is the only one who is going to help us. We have to cry out to him to help us. If I did not love you, I would not tell you. I love each and every one of you, that is why I am telling you the truth. I know you are the workers of the government, but you are talking about government issues and the only thing I want is for our chief and council to be transparent and to be honest and, when they get the money, to spend it wisely, to have wisdom, understanding and knowledge and to be a good role model for our people. That is all.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much, Elder George. The words you have spoken are very wise, and that message should be heard by all the communities who are suffering today. It is a message of hope because there is a bigger power, and people need to know that.
Ms. George: Yes.
Senator Raine: I wish you well in your life and I hope you can inspire many people.
Ms. George: Yes. Thank you for listening to me.
The Chair: I thank you, Elder George, and may God bless you in your travels.
Ms. George: Bless you, too. Thank you.
The Chair: Senators, staff and those who have joined us today, I think we should thank the First Nations on whose land we have held this meeting. On behalf of committee members, I want to thank those who have participated, as well as all of our staff. You have done a great job again, as you always do, in supporting us.
(The committee adjourned.)