Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs, Science and Technology
Issue 11 - Evidence - December 10, 2009
OTTAWA, Thursday, December 10, 2009
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met this day at 10:50 a.m. to study the issue of accessibility of post-secondary education in Canada.
Senator Art Eggleton (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: I would like to call the committee to order. Welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology.
[English]
Today we continue on the subject of access to post-secondary education, particularly financial barriers relevant to the Aboriginal communities in Canada. I am pleased to welcome Kathleen Keenan, Director General of Education in the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. We have, representing the National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation, Roberta Jamieson, President and Chief Executive Officer, no stranger to me in Toronto. The NAAF provides scholarships for post-secondary education to First Nations, non-status Indians, Metis and Inuit students involved in full- or part-time PSE programs. The NAAF has awarded over 8,000 bursaries and scholarships representing more than $32 million. We also have with us to answer questions, from the same association, Dr. Noella Steinhauer.
From the National Aboriginal Caucus of the Canadian Federation of Students, we have Jaden Keitlah, Chairperson. The National Aboriginal Caucus of the Canadian Federation of Students is the voice for Aboriginal students in Canada and works towards uniting Aboriginal students across the country. The NAC has formed a working group on the Indian and Northern Affairs department's Post-Secondary Student Support Program and has been pressuring the federal government to increase the funding for that program to ensure that no eligible student is denied funding to pursue a post-secondary education.
Roberta Jamieson, President and Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation: Good morning. Bonjour. Greetings to every one of you, and thank you for the invitation to present to this committee.
I begin by acknowledging, of course, the Algonquin Nation in whose territory we are meeting. The focus of my presentation this morning is the future of our children, and of course the future of Canada. As I think about our obligations to the future and as we make decisions today that will impact them, I want to say to the committee that any decisions must include steps that we will take to enable Canada's fastest growing demographic group — Aboriginal youth, First Nations, Metis and Inuit — to realize their potential.
This will not just happen. If we look at the growth in the population and the advances being made by the non- Aboriginal population of students, we are not really moving ahead all that much in this country. The statistics tell us the gap is widening, not shrinking.
In 2004, the Auditor General of Canada predicted that, at the current rate of improvement, it would take 28 years for First Nations to catch up with the non-Aboriginal population of students.
Statistics Canada told us in 2006 that the Aboriginal population graduation rate had increased from 6 per cent in 2001 to 8 per cent. However, the non-Aboriginal graduation rate went from 20 per cent to 23 per cent. The bottom line is the gap has become a point wider, and growing.
Earlier this year the Centre for the Study of Living Standards drew our attention to some pretty hard-nosed economic facts that we cannot dodge. Unless we do something about the education of indigenous youth, hundreds of thousands of them will not be available to help Canada deal with the shrinking labour force, nor will they be able to contribute to our economy. Instead, they will contribute to a ballooning social deficit. The cost of maintaining entire communities in poverty are well known to you; a heavy price in human and economic terms for all of us.
The good news is the centre said there are savings to be had: $115 billion on just the expense side of the ledger over the next 15 years if we close the gap. They also told us that that would give a whopping $401 billion cumulative positive impact on Canada's GDP.
We really do need to address this situation. The issues that Aboriginal youth face impact, I think clearly, not just on the lives of our young people but also on Canada and the lives of Canadians, in two ways. The low economic results of Aboriginal economic activity are detrimental to the whole economy. Our failure to realize the potential that these youth have in Canada, if they were educated and able to contribute, is a huge expense and loss.
There are three challenges. First, many more Aboriginal students must graduate from high school. Second, those who do graduate and want to pursue post-secondary education must have access to it, both in terms of the finances to complete their studies successfully and in terms of removing barriers that prevent access. Third, they must be supported once they are in post-secondary institutions to stay, complete and succeed in their studies.
As the CEO of the foundation, I get to see both sides of the picture. I get to see what happens when there is excitement, motivation and funding for our students to complete their studies. I also get to see the pain when students do not have the support to continue.
Our job is to give young people the tools, to work with the private sector — within which we have significant partners — the public sector, individual donors and the philanthropic sector in Canada, all of whom want to come to grips, I believe, with this challenge.
The foundation is well known for its work, and I am very proud to be its CEO. By the end of this year, we will have increased our statistics to $34 million for 10,000 students. We have a well-known jury system. Many people have entrusted us with their endowments in excess of $25 million for education. We have in place policies and procedures, which I would be happy to tell you more about in the question period, that ensure sound stewardship of the founds we have been given. We provide equitable access of funding across Canada to students. We have performance measurement procedures and an accountability regime, which we have worked hard to put in place, and of which we are very proud.
Once we do award scholarships and bursaries, we also track and monitor students. We can tell you where our students are from, what their economic status is, what their needs are, age, gender, where and what they are studying.
Last year — I have shared documents with all of you on the foundation — we supported 74 doctors and dentists, 56 lawyers, 40 in business and commerce, 163 nurses, and I could go on.
This is a beginning and we are proud of it. However, we are not even able to meet 27 per cent of the needs of the students who come to us. We have a challenge. We must grow the pool of high school graduates, and then we cannot fail them when they graduate. We must be there to lift them up and support them. It will take all of us and all sectors — public, private and individual Canadians — if we are to change this picture for Canada.
Our young people are known for two things: They are the fastest growing demographic and least likely to get out of high school. I am delighted to see this committee's interest in working to change that picture.
I hope you will make the commitment to continue to work towards success in this endeavour because surely it is an investment we all should make. Our people believe in education, both in terms of traditional values and in terms of today's science and approaches. They hold the key to our economy and prosperity in the decades ahead for our people and for Canada as well.
When you think of the foundation, I hope you will think of us as an investor in our future. Our future is Canada's future. I am delighted that Dr. Noella Steinhauer is with me, and we will share questions. She is the director of our education department and oversees the scholarships and bursaries.
You have materials on all the scholarships and bursaries we offer and who supports them, and you can see the excitement in the faces of the students that we profile in these materials.
The Chair: Thank you very much. That was a powerful presentation, and we appreciate the good work you are doing.
Jaden Keitlah, Chairperson, National Aboriginal Caucus of the Canadian Federation of Students: Good morning. I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you in the traditional territories of the Algonquin Nation.
I am the National Aboriginal Caucus Chairperson for the Canadian Federation of Students. The caucus is the voice for Aboriginal students across the country. With members at campuses from St. John's to Victoria, the National Aboriginal Caucus puts the issues of Aboriginal students on the national agenda. I would like to take this time to talk to you about access to education for Aboriginal peoples.
Canadians have long seen post-secondary education as a way to improve our country's standard of living and as an important part of developing a more equitable society. Those who attend college or university are more likely to be engaged citizens, be healthier and rely less on the social safety net.
Unfortunately, there remains a staggering gap in post-secondary participation rates between Aboriginal and non- Aboriginal Canadians. While 23 per cent of non-Aboriginal Canadians have a university degree, only 8 per cent of Aboriginal Canadians have attained the same level of education. Although Aboriginal people face numerous barriers, the high cost of college and universities remains one of the most significant barriers.
Currently, the government provides financial assistance to status First Nations and Inuit students through the Post- Secondary Student Support Program, PSSSP, which is administered through Indian and Northern Affairs. Although the Aboriginal population is the fastest growing in Canada, the increases in funding for the PSSSP have been capped at 2 per cent per year since 1996. These increases have not kept up with inflation, let alone increases in the Aboriginal population.
The population of Aboriginal communities is also increasing at a staggering rate. Currently, 50 per cent of Aboriginal Canadians are below the age of 25 years. Many of these young people are in the zero to 14-age range and will be seeking to exercise their right to post-secondary education funding over the next few years.
Further exacerbating this situation is the fact that tuition fees have increased in virtually every jurisdiction in Canada. This year alone, average tuition fees in Canada increased by 3.6 per cent, averaging $4,724 a year for an undergraduate program. While these increases have a negative impact on access to education for all students, Aboriginal students are hit particularly hard, as tuition fee increases depreciate the value of funding for Aboriginal students.
As a result, bands have had to make difficult decisions, such as limiting the number of students that can attend college or university, reducing the amount of funds going to each student, or denying funding for programs that may be more expensive, such as law or medicine. In all cases, students are finding it increasingly difficult to access post- secondary education and Aboriginal communities lose out.
The impact of increasing costs and reduced available funding is made patently clear by the statistics regarding the number of funded students. Currently, the program supports approximately 23,000 students, down from nearly 30,000 a decade ago. This lack of funding is shutting many Aboriginal people out of university and college. Over the past decade, more than 13,000 applicants to the program who were ready, willing and able to attend post-secondary have been denied access to education because of this combination of chronic underfunding and the increasing cost of education in Canada.
With more people trying to access diminishing resources, it is time to take action on Aboriginal education. The National Aboriginal Caucus of the Canadian Federation of Students is calling for an immediate lift on the 2 per cent cap on the Post-Secondary Student Support Program. In addition, the federal government should identify First Nations and Inuit learners who have been denied access to funding due to insufficient allocations and ensure that they are provided with adequate funding.
The funding disbursed through the PSSSP has a proven track record for those who can access it. Most Aboriginal students who are able to access funding through the PSSSP succeed in completing their studies and find meaningful work. Regardless of their place of residence, the majority of Aboriginal graduates return to work in their communities and find employment in their field of study. They achieve economic self-reliance and in turn, they help to develop healthy and stable communities.
As well, not all Aboriginal students qualify for the Post-Secondary Student Support Program. Although non-status First Nations and Metis students face many of the similar challenges in accessing post-secondary education, they are not eligible for the program and must rely on other sources of funding. It is also important for the federal government, in cooperation with Aboriginal organizations, to develop a plan to extend financial assistance to Metis and non-status First Nations through the Post-Secondary Student Support Program.
To conclude, the cost of sitting idly by while the Aboriginal population grows and poverty continues to be a problem will far exceed the cost of providing Aboriginal treaty rights to education.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to your questions.
Kathleen Keenan, Director General of Education, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada: Good morning. Thank you very much for your interest in this subject. It is one that can make a huge difference to the future of students and to Canada.
[Translation]
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the committee today to speak about access to post-secondary education in Canada.
[English]
As you know, post-secondary education plays a critical role in learners' future life chances, but it is also critical to our country's future. Dr. Jamieson spoke earlier about the study done by the Canadian Centre for Living Standards, which looked at what kind of an impact post-secondary education could have on Canada's productivity.
Accordingly, the government has an important role to play in ensuring that Canada has a well-educated and highly skilled workforce. That is why it invests more than $9.8 billion in post-secondary education.
[Translation]
This includes about $2.1 billion in grants, scholarships and loans to students, $1.8 billion to help students and families save for education, and about $3.2 billion in transfers to provinces, as well as investments in research.
[English]
The Canada Student Loans Program and the Canada Student Grant Program, the latter recently put in place September 2009, promote accessibility to post-secondary education for students with demonstrated financial need. In addition to the comprehensive suite of loans and grants made available to students under the program, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada provides other programs and services to help students and their families make informed choices about post-secondary education. It also plays an important role in developing relationships and partnerships with provincial and territorial governments, as well as other organizations, such as those representing teachers, professions and student organizations.
Starting this fiscal year, an additional $350 million was invested in the new grant for students from low- and middle- income families. These investments are to rise to $430 million in 2012-13.
In addition to loans and grants, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada also administers a range of interest relief, debt relief, tax measures and incentives to mitigate the financial demands that the decision to pursue higher education places on students. These measures include the Canada Learning Bond and the Canada Education Savings Grant, both of which are designed to act as savings incentives.
All students, including all Aboriginal students, can benefit from these resources, programs and services. We also should note that there are many other support services and resources provided by other key partners, including provincial and territorial governments, post-secondary institutions, the private sector and the voluntary sector.
In order to respond to the unique challenges facing First Nation and Inuit students, funding is also provided to First Nations or their regional organizations to help students access post-secondary education. This program was referred to earlier by my colleagues. In 2008-09, approximately 22,000 students received about $292 million.
[Translation]
In 2008-09, approximately 22,000 students received about $292 million to help with the cost of tuition fees, books, transportation and living allowances.
[English]
As my colleagues noted earlier, there has been some progress made in increasing the number of First Nation Inuit students who are completing post-secondary education. The census numbers referred to earlier indicate an increase from 2001 to 2006 of 5 per cent to 7 per cent. However, clearly that is not keeping pace with the corresponding increase that is taking place in the non-Aboriginal population and the huge gap that already exists, where we now see 23 per cent of non-Aboriginal people with a university degree.
The Indian and Northern Affairs Post-Secondary Education Program is helping to make a difference. The fact that 22,000 students are accessing funding from the program is significant. However, this is not enough and not fast enough. As well, this number has been dropping over time, at a time when the demand and what we would expect to be the uptake should be increasing.
That is why in Budget 2008 the Government of Canada committed to review Indian and Northern Affairs' Post- Secondary Education Program in order to ensure that it is both coordinated with other programs and, in particular, that it provides the support that First Nation and Inuit students need to stay in school and complete their education.
As many of you know, the Government of Canada, parliamentary committees and outside evaluators program have examined the program a number of times over the past several years, and the same issues have been identified again and again. That is partly why this review has been put in place.
The common observation is that the current programming does not ensure that students who most need support are getting funding. The awareness among First Nations and Inuit youth of the full range of options for post-secondary education funding is limited, particularly for students on reserve.
The other high correlation between students on reserve is that the lowest graduation rate is amongst First Nations on reserve. This rate is not what it should be in the general population for students who are in provincial schools, nor is it for Metis and non-status Indians, but the lowest of all, the most challenging, is for those students who are on reserve. There also needs to be better information on the results being achieved by the program, and part of that has to do with the data information system that needs to be developed.
Furthermore, many of you may have seen a departmental audit that was released to the public in March of 2009. That audit provided 14 recommendations in areas related to program funding, management and accountability. The audit, and this is the telling part, was unable to assure that the objectives of the programs are being met. That is why work on the audit is under way and why the review of the program is also under way.
As you know, education is key to a better future for a young and growing Aboriginal population. Mr. Chairperson, there is no simple solution to the educational challenges facing this growing population. However, both the review and the audit of the Post-Secondary Education Program present an opportunity for all partners to look at the full range of issues for First Nation and Inuit students who want to pursue their educational goals and, in turn, make a greater contribution to their communities and to Canada.
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this critical issue.
The Chair: Thank you for your presentation of the government program. I will start with a question to you, Ms. Keenan. The other witnesses have talked about the 2 per cent cap and the fact that Metis and non-status Indians are not included in this. I would like you to comment on why the cap is in place and why the other groups are excluded.
We just finished a report on poverty and placed it before the Senate. The report talked about how extensively overrepresented the Aboriginal population is in terms of poverty experienced in this country. I remember hearing from deponents who said that if we could just cut the dropout rate of the Aboriginal population down to the same dropout rate as the population as a whole, we would be saving billions of dollars of taxpayer's money. If you carry that through into post-secondary education, the same kind of story would come forth. We are perhaps not spending the money the right way and doing the right thing and getting people the kind of education they need to get them and their families out of poverty.
You even said in your report that this audit was unable to assure that the objectives of the program are being met. That seems to say something. Although it does not terribly surprise me, it does worry me, because what does that mean in terms of the program now? Does it mean there will be many more delays before there are changes made in the program?
Ms. Keenan: Your questions are very timely, both in terms of the ongoing work on the recommendations coming out of the audit as well as in terms of the work that is under way as part of the review. Your questions are at the heart of what that review is about. What needs to be done to best ensure that First Nation and Inuit students have full access to post-secondary education and are able to complete it?
Roberta Jamieson referred earlier to the critical part having to do with high school completion, and your reference to dropout rates as well is critically important. That is part of what needs to be done in addressing barriers. The financial aspect is part of it, but it is not the only critical part. Clearly, actually being able to complete high school will make a huge difference in people being able to access post-secondary education.
The origin of the 2 per cent goes back to program review from 1995. Indian and Northern Affairs was one of the departments that was treated a bit more gently than some others and was allowed an annual 2 per cent increase in its program funding. That 2 per cent, however, does not take into account new programs that are introduced. The 2 per cent is automatic. Other new programs in education have been introduced since that time, including the New Paths program and the two new programs released in December of 2008, the First Nations Student Success Program and the First Nation Education Partnership Program.
The Chair: You have not mentioned Metis and non-status Indians.
Ms. Keenan: That is part of what the review needs to be about. It also needs to be acknowledged that the Government of Canada's primary interest in supporting post-secondary education is to ensure access to post- secondary education on the part of students. Much of that is provided through direct financial assistance, largely under programs and services that are provided by HRDC, who work very closely, of course, with their provincial and territorial colleagues, because many of the loans, bursaries and programs available in this country are done jointly through the two levels of government.
Senator Keon: I thank all of you for coming before us. What is the ratio of boys to girls graduating from university and college?
Ms. Jamieson: Of the students that we support, women are much higher, and I think that is consistent throughout the country. In fact, the profile of the students receiving our bursary and scholarship support shows that they tend to be women, 27 years old, many of whom are single parents. They are moms.
Senator Keon: Thank you. You commented that the first step in all of this is getting kids through high school. I tend to think you have to go back further. You may or may not know we released a report on population health that highly recommends healthy, productive and vibrant communities where education is a huge part of the platform. These communities should be under the control of First Nations and so forth, particularly the women who contribute so much in those areas, which I have seen when I have visited such communities. Before you leave here, I will give you a copy of the community model that we recommend.
Ms. Jamieson: Please.
Senator Keon: What do you think of the concept of starting in the community to foster educated, healthy, productive communities with of low crime rates and so forth, rather than coming in at 30,000 feet?
Ms. Jamieson: Senator, thank you for the question. I did not mean to imply in my remarks that graduating more students from high school is an enterprise that begins in grade 9 and ends in grade 12. If we are to grow more high school graduates, and I use the term quite deliberately, it is quite a large undertaking. It is something that we have been focused on at the foundation for some time. Indeed, it is an area of concentrated focus for us.
A new project we are working on, called the realizing project, will be a nine-year initiative, and we are in intensive planning for it now.
There are some good stories out there. It is not all bad. There are some good places where things are working. We would like to showcase and share those through an institute that will educate and coach and connect.
We also need to grow more models, and we need to work with community — you have hit it right on the head — who want to engage in rural, remote and urban settings, First Nations, Metis and Inuit, as young as preschool and right up through the grades to develop approaches that meet the specific circumstances of the community itself. It is very different in Kuujjuaq from Membertou, and I could go on. We need to acknowledge that, and the communities themselves need to own that future. That will take a bit of time, I put it mildly, and a lot of hard work.
Unless the approaches to education — the institutions, whether they are at grade school or university — are sensitive to, knowledgeable about and reflective of Aboriginal people, our differences and our world view, we will not succeed.
That grounding in community cultural values — and community is a different thing in an urban setting than in remote settings — is something our people have. We need engaged partners. I believe Canadians will put their shoulders to the wheel and help us do this. That is why I believe in it so much. However, in the meantime, we had better be able to support those who are now coming out of high school. They need to be the role models.
Many of you were on the Hill several weeks ago when we brought this year's National Aboriginal Achievement Award recipients. These are our role models. We need to lift them up. Senator Dyck is one of them right here, right now. This inspires our young people. If we get them motivated, inspired and through high school and they cross all the barriers to get there, we need to have a hand ready to help them finish their post-secondary education and realize their potential.
Senator Segal: I want to understand the difference, Chief Jamieson, in these scenarios. A poor kid in Kingston gets admitted to university, has no money, applies to OSAP and gets financial support. A poor kid down the road in one of our First Nations communities has no money; can he not apply to OSAP? Does he have other issues because of the status and non-status question?
My second question relates to your foundation's balance of both academic achievement and financial need and how you weigh them. Obviously, if you weigh them towards academic achievement, you are already dealing with a bit of a winner in terms of what he or she — largely she — has been exposed to by that point in her life.
I guess a small piece on that question is do government programs frustrate what you want to achieve. For example, a non-First Nation person, the 27-year-old single mom on welfare, to which you made such eloquent reference, applies to OSAP in Ontario to get financial assistance. Her welfare benefits are cancelled; end of story. We have a system that would entrap that person when she is trying to break out in the way that we tell her is good, namely, through education; I would be interested in your advice.
Finally, I have a question for our colleague from Indian Affairs and Northern Development. If we had a law in Canada that merely said that every First Nation person on reserve or otherwise who was admitted to a post-secondary institution would receive base funding for fees and living costs for the duration of their enrolment, would that not be a much more efficient way of getting the money to them? Would that not be more efficient than the way your department, with the best of intentions and good faith, operates?
Ms. Jamieson: What is the difference between the student who applies for OSAP and a First Nation student? It is true that First Nations students also may apply for OSAP. First Nations students are eligible to apply for funding support through their own First Nation, which may or may not have funds to provide. If they have funds, they may be severely limited and they can then apply to the foundation to top up their needs. Often it is basic things like daycare, and it is $500 for some and $10,000 for others.
Yes, they can apply to OSAP. With regard to financial literacy, frankly, I hate to speak in broad statements, but forgive me; there are differences across the country, but it is not there. Generations of welfare assistance does not educate, inspire, motivate, or give you confidence, if no one has had a job for generations. That is not well on its face. Everyone is able; it is equal and so on. There is a challenge with literacy, financial literacy, but I would say the foundation puts the student first. The more sources our students have to get funding, the better the chance of the student finding the right fit, so I am all for the smorgasbord, but there needs to be targeted funds in that smorgasbord for Aboriginal students. Study after study tells us that.
When we invest in students with support from the foundation, they tell us every day that just getting that — because we are associated with the achievement awards, it is a financial award — is a signal that we believe in their potential; they are thrilled. It also reinforces their identity, which is critical.
For the second question, what are the criteria for how to balance all these things, I will ask Dr. Steinhauer to talk about the four criteria we take into account in reviewing applications?
Noella Steinhauer, Director of Education, National Aboriginal Achievement Foundation: This is a very important area, especially for us, because we recognize that not all students have the academic component completely fulfilled.
They are assessed in four areas. Each of those areas receives 10 points. When they come to the jury, the jury assesses them in those specific areas. The first area is financial need. They must demonstrate a financial need to be considered for an award. They must also demonstrate a commitment to the Aboriginal community, because many of our sponsors want to ensure that the people will go back to their communities or demonstrate involvement through volunteerism and through various activities. They want to ensure that there is that demonstrated commitment to the Aboriginal community. In addition, they have to write an essay. They have to provide assessments from university instructors that demonstrate that they are suitable to the field of study. That is also assessed. The final area is academic achievement, of course.
A student may not score so well in academic achievement, but score well in the areas of financial need, suitability of the field of study and demonstrated commitment.
Senator Segal: It is a total point score process.
Ms. Steinhauer: Yes, and it is based on consensus that is achieved at the jury.
Senator Segal: Thank you.
Ms. Jamieson: The jury is made up of Aboriginal professionals who have themselves gone through post-secondary.
Ms. Keenan: Your question has to do with whether First Nations students would be better served if they automatically received base funding once they were accepted to an institution. It is a very interesting option and I think one that would be useful to look at in terms of the review. The way the program works now is that the money goes directly to First Nation communities. It is part of a transfer of monies. The money may be used for post-secondary but if a First Nation community finds that they do not require the funds, the way the program works is that it is possible to declare those funds to be surplus and to be used for other priorities.
If you move to your proposal, it would mean that the funds would be used for post-secondary. It also means, though, for most students, base funding would not be sufficient in and of itself so it would need to be coordinated with other programs available to ensure that a student who is in financial need can access sufficient financial assistance to be able to complete his or her studies.
Senator Eaton: It gives me great hope when I see the three of you here that we are going to do something.
From earlier witnesses, I am trying to understand some of the bridges that Aboriginal children face that perhaps White children do not; perhaps they are the same hurdles.
We were told that there is a huge drop-off in high school, especially of young men, as Senator Keon pointed out, because there is a lack of mentoring among non-Aboriginal high school students. They are not getting the focus or drive that they need to take them to university. We were talking about perhaps mentoring high school student's early — in the seventh or eighth grade — to make them realize what it takes to get to university and the importance of higher learning. Is that type of mentoring done in Aboriginal communities? Mr. Keitlah, you obviously have post-secondary education. Did you receive mentoring?
Mr. Keitlah: I started out as a youth advocate and worked with many different organizations, not necessarily Aboriginal. In this discussion, we are moving away from access to post-secondary education. I want to stress that Aboriginal communities face many issues such as high school completion rates, access to clean water and adequate housing. We need to address these issues.
Senator Eaton: I just want to talk about getting to post-secondary education. Some of our other witnesses have said, in their studies, that lack of funds is not always the determinant for people not receiving a post-secondary education. I will comment on what Chief Jamieson said when she said there is a lack of financial sophistication.
What do you think, aside from funding, are the reasons? In non-Aboriginal communities, some parents have not been to university. You mentioned that too. You said that if the parents had not gone to university there would be little encouragement for the children to do so. Sometimes it is peer pressure.
What drove you to post-secondary education? How did you get there?
Mr. Keitlah: I was a high school dropout; I went back to an alternative school system in British Columbia and completed my high school education that way. Fortunately, I came from a family where my mom was the first person in our family to graduate university.
For me the real issue is funding. For 2,500 students this year who did not get access to post secondary education, the real issue is funding.
Senator Eaton: Chief Jamieson, I am also a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry. In that committee, we heard from a doctoral First Nations person who goes to Lakehead University. He was talking about the bridges for an Aboriginal person to continue to post-secondary education. He asked if we need a parallel system. Do you think we need a parallel system so First Nations can keep their culture and values? How do we build that in so we do not have a parallel system in this country? How do we make First Nations children feel at home at university?
Ms. Jamieson: These are huge questions, senator. Let me take a run at them. First, thank you for remembering my time as chief at Six Nations, but I am not chief anymore.
You have asked about two things. I will start with your last question about universities, parallel systems and so on. I honestly believe there is a role for all approaches. I know of some successful First Nations institutions at the post- secondary level. I know of successful programs in existing post-secondary institutions. Indeed, there is one in British Columbia that you might have a look at called LE,NONET at the University of Victoria. The name, in the Salish language means success after enduring many hardships.
It would be wise to think about incenting post-secondary institutions to ensure they have a place that is welcoming and sensitive for their Aboriginal students. We are having this conversation at a very good time. Enrolment is on the decline for non-Aboriginal students, and it should be on the incline for our students.
I have talked to the Association of Universities and Colleges about this. We need to work together to ensure we have an environment that assures success. It may mean a First Nations centre in one area, and it will certainly mean tenured faculty, not a group of contract people. There are many aspects and I invite you to have a look at it, please.
The other question you asked about are the challenges facing students who do not graduate from high school. They are many, but there are some quite specific to the Aboriginal, First Nations, Metis and Inuit student. The students face challenges with family support or lack thereof and mentoring, absolutely. In fact, we are looking at that at the foundation right now. Dr. Steinhauer is developing a mentoring program that is different from the one-on-one program because we do not think that is necessarily the only successful way to go. It targets lower grades and is teaming whole groups of our successful students with an entire class of students in Grade 7 or Grade 8.
Among our biggest challenges — and there are many more — are family, students and child care. We are in extended families, so we stay home to look after elders. Many things are different and quite beautiful about our cultures that maybe do not free students up to pursue the path.
A fundamental issue, though, is that many of our young people do not believe they have a future. They lose sight of their dreams. They come to school excited and then something happens. They are not seeing the role models as much as we must show them more and more, and we are doing our best to do that.
To go back to the issue of post-secondary, we must grow these role models. We must support them. We know we have doctors, dentists, lawyers and PhDs. We must get more and ensure our young people see someone from their community who fits that model and believe they can do it too. That is a huge part. That means being there to support them if they have the potential.
Senator Callbeck: Welcome to all of you. Ms. Keenan, you spoke about a review that was announced in Budget 2008. I would like to know exactly what that review is going to cover and when we can expect to get the results.
Ms. Keenan: Some questions are more oriented to the future than others are, and this is one of them.
Much of the work that has been done to date on the review has been informed by the recommendations coming out of the audit. It has also meant that we have started to do literature reviews to identify not only the financial aspects but fundamentally, what will make a difference in increasing access to and completion of high school and, therefore, the ability to do so at the post-secondary level as well.
We have had some informal discussions with representatives across the country, but it is a big question. It will take some time to get to the stage where you can have the kind of discussion where the option that the senator put on the table earlier could even be discussed. At this stage, much of the discussion has been around whether there is a scope for something that could be different, or can we only look at fixing the program as it is now.
Senator Callbeck: In other words, you do not have an outline of a review as to what will be included, dates and so on?
Ms. Keenan: There are no finite dates at this stage, but it is meant to be comprehensive. There is a program and we know there are some issues with that, but that may not be what works best.
You look at the full range of what is possible; you look at the barriers, at the resources and the gaps. This is not something that can be done overnight. To drive toward that kind of thing, takes at least a generation.
Senator Callbeck: Of course, that is what this committee is looking at. Do you have any estimate of the time frame of when you might have results we could see?
Ms. Keenan: I will have to come back to you on that. At this stage, no. I know there is a hope that we would be in a position to report within the year on some kind of diagnostics and options, but there are many factors that could influence whether that ends up being the case. I would like to be able to come back to you once there is more of a confirmation as to what kind of timeline we are working within.
Senator Callbeck: I would certainly appreciate that, because that could be very useful to this committee. If it is a ways down the road, it is of no use to us.
The Chair: Perhaps you could file a letter with the clerk, after further review, as to any further thoughts you can provide us that would be helpful in answering Senator Callbeck's question.
Ms. Keenan: I would be pleased to do that.
Senator Callbeck: Ms. Jamieson, congratulations on your achievements with this foundation. I think it is marvellous what you are doing.
As I understand it, this is really a top-up. The people who want to go to university get money through whatever programs they can, and then if they need more financial assistance, they approach the foundation; is that right?
Ms. Jamieson: Not always. If they do not have access to other sources, they can certainly come to us. It was mentioned earlier the situation of many Metis students who do not have access to specialized funding. They can certainly come to us afresh.
We have another situation where First Nation students come to us because there is no money left in their communities. Back to my days as chief, one year I had 400 students accepted into post-secondary education. We had to say that we did not have any money for them. They will come to us, but they must demonstrate what they have done to try to access funds, whether it is from their spouse, partner, family or OSAP.
Senator Callbeck: Students who want to go into trades, are they eligible?
Ms. Jamieson: Currently we have a special program, operating at this point only in province of Alberta, fully funded by the private sector, for students who want to pursue pre-trades training, trades training, apprenticeships and jobs in the oil and gas trades and technology sector. That program shows great promise and can grow geographically and through many trades.
[Translation]
Senator Pépin: Good morning and welcome. When we talked about women living in poverty, who have family obligations and who are in remote regions, you mentioned your foundation. They receive scholarships. At this time, is there a way for them to access your foundation or another organization to obtain grants to help them pay for services, to help them cover the additional expenses they have as adult parents? They are single parents with children. I understand that their tuition is paid for.
[English]
Ms. Jamieson: That is an excellent question. I will ask Dr. Steinhauer to talk about it at a personal level with some of our students.
Ms. Steinhauer: Thank you for the question. That is certainly part of the jurors' assessment. They take into account the special considerations. For example, if you have students from the Far North, they understand that they have extra costs for returning home, relocation and plane fare, so they consider those costs. For the single mother, daycare costs become part of her financial consideration. Daycare is part of her budget and her demonstrated need. Unfortunately, we are still not able to fund all of the needs. However, for some of them, it is the difference between their being able to complete that year of school or not.
[Translation]
Senator Pépin: For women, who are the majority, if I understood correctly, who are going to school, I wonder whether there is another avenue that could be used to obtain more money to help these adults who are the heads of their household. Right now, the federal government does not seem to be giving them enough money to meet that need, but it seems to me that it is a very important need, one that should be met.
We talked a lot about students who pursue post-secondary and university studies. But what happens to students who opt to go into the trades, apprenticeship programs? Is there also a system for them? Can you help them? How do you support them? Do you follow up afterwards to see how many are successful? What percentage of young people go into the trades and apprenticeship programs?
[English]
Ms. Jamieson: With regard to the trades, at this time we are supporting only students in oil and gas trades and technology. There are other programs under HRSDC, what they call the AHRDS. I would invite you to ask your research staff to do some homework there, because that is also up for review this year. There is still not enough support throughout the country.
When we developed this special trade support program, five private-sector supporters of the foundation came to us and put $1 million on the table. They said they wanted to work with us to design a special program to grow Aboriginal employees. We designed the program so that there is an incentive coming into the program based on what the student had achieved in school, which might have been grade 8 or grade 10. It is a way of saying hurrah; you are going to kick- start your career. It says we recognize that the student wants to do something new.
Then we do the same analysis on needs as Dr. Steinhauer has outlined. There is a bursary for needs, based on a sliding scale. It might be $1,000, $5,000, or whatever it takes to help them succeed. The third piece is an incentive when they complete the program. There is a reward when they finish their studies.
BP, Petro-Canada, Suncor, Trans-Canada, and Shell led this initiative. There are no shortages of jobs for the students who come out and succeed. Here again, this is a piece, a very small piece, we need to grow and replicate right across the country.
The Chair: On this question, could I ask Ms. Keenan to respond as well? Is your department supporting those who go through trades or apprenticeship programming?
Ms. Keenan: Your earlier question was:
[Translation]
Is there a gap between the people who go into the trades? No, there is not really a difference. It is very similar between aboriginals and non-aboriginals.
[English]
There is no representational gap in trades or, in fact, in colleges for Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal students. However, some time ago, before I was at Indian and Northern Affairs, it was clearly identified that responsibility for support for apprenticeship and trades rested with HRSDC, and the INAC program was targeted to college and university completion.
The Chair: Do you work with the human resource department on these issues at all, help give policy guidance, or is that a separate operation?
Ms. Keenan: There is a lot of work to be done, but there is certainly a lot of interest in sharing alignments of programs, particularly in specific places. Some provinces are particularly interested in working together to line up what is possible to do to support Aboriginal students. We have worked with HRSDC on specific programming initiatives that can be aligned.
The Chair: I will ask Senator Keon to take the chair, as I have to go to another meeting. This will be our last meeting before the new year and before our return from the holiday break. With that, I will turn the chair over to Senator Keon.
Senator Wilbert J. Keon (Deputy Chairman) in the Chair.
Senator Martin: I echo the other senators in thanking you for being here today. This is an important issue for our present and our future. I commend you for the leadership that you are showing. The mentorship program that the foundation will initiate across the country will be an important elemental piece in the whole equation to successfully attracting and keeping students in school, motivated, and successfully graduating from post-secondary education.
I want to focus on the access piece. It sounds as though the foundation is effective and strong. You talked about your $25 million endowment fund as well as equitable access to all students. Did you say that you reach only about 27 per cent of the students, or is it that you can only award up to that amount because of limited funding? I am trying to clarify. Is the challenge in them accessing the programs you offer, the scholarships and bursaries, or that you are limited in how much you can award?
Ms. Jamieson: We are not limited in the amount that we can award per student, but the reality is that students who came to us last year requested $22 million plus, and we had only $4.6 to distribute. As a matter of policy, the foundation has determined that we will not fund the first 500 applicants fully and say ``no'' to the rest. We do our very best to equitably distribute what we have based on need so to give as much as possible to as many as possible, but the reality is, just from those figures alone, we are not even meeting 27 per cent of the students who make their way to us, and there are even more students..
Senator Martin: I see. Thank you for that clarification.
You mentioned that many students are not eligible for funding. What makes them ineligible, and what are some things that we may wish to address to ensure student eligibility?
In accessing different funding sources, do these students have the kind of support they need on reserves or off reserves with counsellors that may help with the paperwork? I know, as a former student myself, that those forms can be quite daunting. It helps to have another person who has been through it or some sort of clear process in place to help students complete the application process.
Mr. Keitlah: In terms of eligibility, I referred to non-status and Metis people who are ineligible for the program. As it stands, the program only goes to Inuit and status First Nation students. It is our position that because these students face many of the same issues, they should be eligible and the government should work in coordination with Aboriginal organizations to make that happen.
In terms of accessing resources, for me, the way the program is currently set up is effective in that the people I am dealing with in terms of administering it are people from my community and have been through this whole process with the Post-Secondary Student Support Program already. The people are there to do the work, and we need to increase that capacity in other communities through access to education.
Senator Martin: That is your personal experience. Do students in general have access to that sort of support?
Mr. Keitlah: Within the policies of the program, the Post-Secondary Student Support Program can fund education outreach workers through the program. Many nations have the same position.
Senator Dyck: I thank all of you today for your presentations. I know that all of you are committed to increasing access to post-secondary education for Aboriginals, and I thank you all. I particularly want to thank Roberta Jamieson for the work that she has done with the foundation. As a role model from that foundation, wherever I go across Canada, people recognize me. It is very humbling. I have had young students come up to me and say that I have inspired them, and it just totally shocks me. The role of the foundation providing award recipients has made a tremendous change across our country.
I will focus on the financial barriers. Senator Segal's question indicated that there were student loans and different types of awards, such that those that come from your foundation and welfare for some of the single moms and funding from INAC and so on, but all of those are what I call externally generated. Most students that we are talking about today do not have funds from their families or a bank account that they can draw from, so there has to be some means of generating their own income. One such means that I think is important, and I would be eager to hear if you agree, is wages from summer employment.
Should there be programs to increase summer job opportunities for students while they are still in the later stages of high school or particularly when they are in their post-secondary training so, they can generate income while they are being trained? Are there ways of doing that?
Are there ways of increasing funding for the trades? The men are in the trades programs. They may not be at universities, but they are taking the trades. It is almost all men there and very few women. Senator Keon pointed out some interesting gender gaps.
Ms. Jamieson: Senator, it is a pleasure to see you again. I will ask Dr. Steinhauer to talk specifically to your question about summer jobs and wages.
Ms. Steinhauer: Thank you for the feedback. For our students, a big part of why they apply to us is that they have heard about us through the foundation or through other people like you.
In terms of summer jobs, many of our students do have summer jobs and will rely on that job for funding for the next year. They usually try to exhaust all other sources and demonstrate that they have looked at all sources of funding. In terms of preparation for university, that would certainly help. We looked within the Six Nations community this year and the number of students who were unable to work because there were no jobs for college and university students across the province and across the country, for that matter.
Wages for high school students is an excellent starting place for many of them. If there are no opportunities for jobs, perhaps something could be put in place at the community level, especially in terms of First Nations.
Senator Dyck: Exactly. Maybe we need to create something.
Ms. Jamieson: I think that is a great idea, and not only would the government be an important partner, but from our experience working with the supporters, private sector is willing to do internships and provide opportunities, because they want to be in touch with students this summer, next summer, through post-secondary, and they want to hire them. They want to grow that loyalty. Again, there is a role for everyone to play. We all agree that an idle student in summer is not a very good picture.
Senator Dyck: Do you have a comment, Mr. Keitlah?
Mr. Keitlah: I have had some conversations with representatives from the First Nations Education Steering Committee in B.C. In terms of increasing success, they have had anecdotal evidence that when nations give out the maximum living allowance while a person is engaged in post-secondary education, their level of success increases. This has not been studied, but it is the feedback they receive from their students.
Creating that is important, but I would also like to note that students were hit incredibly hard by the recession, and student employment this past summer was at an all-time low.
Ms. Jamieson: That is right. They are not idle because they want to be. Many students could not find work and the opportunities were not available to them.
Senator Fairbairn: This is a very good discussion today. Some of you know I come from the southwest corner of Alberta, right in the heart of Treaty 7. Right down the road is the Kainai Nation. Back in the 1960s, much to the surprise of a great number of people in my home city, it was decided that we should have a university. The University of Lethbridge was to include the Aboriginal people, in the larger sense, and also in the close-by sense. This has grown tremendously in the last several years, as has, in a different way, the community college. Part of the learning at the University of Lethbridge is of Aboriginal people and very much connected to those in our area. One of them, the Kainai, has a college of their own, Red Crow Community College. It is looking pretty good, but it has been there for a long, long time. There have always been people thinking it will shut down, and it never has. Now it is quite connected with the university. I usually attend the convocations throughout the year. A number of young people, and people in the middle, are coming across that stage. This year I noted particularly not just the fact that they graduated from what they were studying and had succeeded, but this time, and oddly enough, many of them were young women. They were not only succeeding, but they were wearing the strip of being at the top. It just takes your breath away.
The connection between that university and the people on the reserves is very close. In anything that you are doing, have you connected with them and with Red Crow? It has become a large part of our university because of where we are. Now you find the young people are coming in to the city, up to Calgary, and they are in a position where they are making a good living for themselves and their families. Is this anything that you have looked at in terms of some of the ways they have gone ahead and done it? In the beginning in the 1960s, nobody really knew what was happening or if it would even work and it has. Have you picked this up at any point?
Ms. Steinhauer: I thank you for acknowledging this. I am actually from Alberta, but I am from northeastern Alberta. I know the University of Lethbridge program quite well because in a previous life I worked for the University of Alberta. I was the director of education with the Aboriginal Teacher Education Program, so I know what happens with the outreach programs and the programs that feed into Red Crow and Blue Quills First Nations College. All of those First Nations colleges are critical components that are often not acknowledged because they are feeder institutions. It is where I got a start. Many years ago, I went to university. I was 17 years old and went to the institution because it was close to home. Had I left and gone straight to the city, I probably would not have finished or not have even completed the year. They are critical institutions because they work closely with the larger institutions, such as the University of Alberta, the University of Calgary and the University of Lethbridge. All of them have made efforts in various ways to accommodate the needs of students. Often there is outreach, and the province has supported this, where they will have part of the program in the actual home community. The Teacher Education Program that we operated was fully government funded by the province of Alberta and run in conjunction with the University of Alberta. A student never had to leave their community to receive a Bachelor of Education degree. The success rate with that was very high. You have some of the students on the honour roll, an 87 per cent graduation rate, and they are all women. I could count on my hand how many men we had.
Those are some of the things of which we are mindful. However, we make up a very small non-profit department and we do not have the necessary capacity to do anything right now. It really stretches our capacity to the limit to do a lot of that extra research, but we are mindful of because we know when students write to us they demonstrate success. I started in this program and this is where I ended up. The programs are important.
Ms. Jamieson: Could I just add one thing to the very important subject you have raised about identity? The students tell us and show us every day, and we know this to be the case as studies are being done on this subject — is the impact of a healthy sense of identity and pride contributes to their ability to succeed. Students tell us that they can realize their potential when they have this positive mental attitude. We know there is a correlation. We know those institutions that acknowledge and understand the students are particularly successful in graduating more students. It is so important that our young people have access to their values, their culture, their elders, their people, because the better they feel about themselves, the more they accomplish.
Speaking personally, that is one of the things I credit to my academic success. I have a supportive family. My family supports me as a woman, as a Mohawk. Our people have contributed to this country and have so much more to contribute. We are looking for ways to do that. If we can inspire that in our people, they will succeed. There is no question, if we support them financially.
Senator Dyck talked about summer jobs and employment. There was a study released yesterday at the Château — I believe you were there, senator — OCCL, talking about volunteerism, how our people are very high on volunteerism.
Could there not be a summer job within that? Is not there some compensation we should be giving our students because they are working hard in the summer? Perhaps they are not earning wages, but maybe we can figure out a way of putting that picture together, because they want to contribute, just like the members of this panel have, if there is space and support to do it.
Senator Cordy: I want to thank you all very much because I am an educator. I think that once you have been a teacher, you are always a teacher. I would like to go through a few things and I will ask all my questions at the same time.
We know that Aboriginal youth under 25 years of age is one of the fastest growing demographics, and we know they are the least likely to graduate from high school. If we want a better Canada, then we better start investing in our Aboriginal youth because I am not sure everybody realizes how fast that demographic is growing.
A couple of questions are related to student loans, first, and they sort of tie in together; there is a lot of overlap. I just remember a friend of mine who came from a Black community outside of Halifax who was a teacher with me. It is easy for us to tell people to get a student loan. She did not know anything about student loans. She was the first person in her community and in her family to attend university, so she did not know what was available to her.
How do you make Aboriginal young people aware of all the things that are available to them, so the uptake could be a little bit higher?
In addition, what are the statistics for Aboriginal youth who leave post-secondary institutions because of lack of funding?
Second, I would like to look at the whole issue of support in post-secondary education. Dr. Jamieson, you mentioned a few of the things. When we were in Winnipeg and Regina, we saw some wonderful programs taking place in terms of support for teenagers, most of whom were both male and female young parents. Child care was a major issue for them. They were taking the bus, carrying their child to a daycare centre, and then taking another bus to get to their place of education. They were juggling many things. It makes me wonder whether, in a similar circumstance, I would be able to do it.
You talked about your sense of well-being. We mentioned you cannot discuss post-secondary in isolation. You look at high schools, child care and your sense of well-being and your culture, and being a minority and not seeing many people who look just like you.
You mentioned offering incentives to universities, and I would like to hear a little bit more about that. I grew up in Cape Breton in Nova Scotia. Cape Breton University many, many years ago had the start-up programs for the Mi'kmaq young people living in the Sydney area.
Ms. Jamieson: Let me address incentives to universities. I would like to see a way of working with the AUCC, Association of Universities and Colleges in Canada, and others to actually accredit or acknowledge the criteria of models that are working.
I believe one of the things the foundation does very well is celebrate success. I think we can identify, measure, and celebrate the successes of institutions that are doing just that. A very hands-on approach to doing that is incenting them by ensuring that students know they are in a place that acknowledges them, supports them, and has gone the extra mile. They have been actively promoting those institutions to our students across the country. I think that is one way, among others.
How do we reach our students and let them know what is available? One of the things we have done is recruit and train our own past scholarship and bursary recipients from the foundation and ask those students to go out into the field and talk to other students about how to come to the foundation, how to apply and how to access us.
There is a lesson there. We would like to do it much more across the country, but we are not very big. We do what we can with what we have, but we know students themselves are the most successful ambassadors in getting the word out. A multi-pronged approach? Yes. Student loans? Yes.
As I said before, I will not take the position that they are good or bad, or that education is a right or it is not. My role is to put the students first and to ensure they have as many opportunities as possible to put together a financial portfolio to realize their potential.
Loans are a piece of that as are the foundation's funds. PSSE from Indian and Northern Affairs is a piece of that. They are all part of what we need to make available to students. However, accessibility is the issue. They must be readily accessible, easily and quick. They know what happened when they are declined. The whole nine yards must be part of that.
Ms. Steinhauer: You asked about statistics in terms of dropouts in post-secondary. From my friends in the post- secondary system, they said it is as high as 50 per cent.
Senator Cordy: Oh, my gosh.
Ms. Steinhauer: When I worked in the university system, there were students who went home for Christmas and never came back. Much of it was financial. Much of it is social, and usually the financial burden was the toughest. The whole issue of financing is a big issue. Some of them had no more funding.
We experience this at the foundation. We have a number of First Nation students who are unable to get access to funding, so we have a process they have to go through to demonstrate that they were ineligible or unable to receive funding from their First Nation. For whatever reason, we just do not ask them. We just ask them to provide that as justification for not receiving funding because there are many communities, as Ms. Jamieson has mentioned, where you cannot fund all of the students who are going to post-secondary institutions.
In terms of access to other services like child care, the students face the financial burden of daycare. We have had students who ride the bus an hour to take their children to daycare and an hour back to get back to school. It is same thing at the end of the day.
For many of them, the issues are about availability of daycare space. For some of them, it is not because they think it is the best daycare or the most accessible. It is because of costs. A big factor with many of the students, even at the high school level, is child care. I was a high school principal also for a number of years. One of the things we found is a number of the high school students having children between 16 years and 18 years of age, accessing child care, trying to get back to school. Our stats do not lie to us. When we say our average student is 27 years old with children, we do so because that will be a successful student because she sees an education as an opportunity. Whether the daycare is two hours away or an hour away, she will get her children to that location.
There are many factors. It is very complex and we could discuss multiple layers. Being cognizant of the time I have, I thought I would just touch on those points.
The Deputy Chair: I am afraid we must end on that note. Some senators are already seven minutes over their commitments.
We would really like to thank you very much. You have been wonderful witnesses, and it was delightful to listen to you. Thank you.
(The committee adjourned.)