Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 3 - Evidence - Meeting of October 19, 2011
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 19, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:47 p.m. to examine and report on the federal government's constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples, and on other matters generally relating to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada (topic: Issues concerning First Nations Education).
Senator Gerry St. Germain (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good evening. I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, either on CPAC or the web.
I am Senator St. Germain, from British Columbia, and I have the honour of chairing this committee.
The mandate of this committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada generally. Given this mandate, the committee has undertaken a study to examine possible strategies for reform concerning First Nations primary and secondary education, with a view to improving outcomes. Among other things, the study has focused on the following: tripartite education agreements, governance and delivery structures, and possible legislative frameworks.
This evening we will hear from two witnesses: the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre and the Nishnawbe Aski Nation.
The Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre was established in 1999. It was given a mandate by the Chiefs of Manitoba to provide second- and third-level education services to the 55 First Nation schools in Manitoba. The centre facilitates a community education process based on First Nations needs, priorities and education plans. Authority remains with the First Nations.
The Nishnawbe Aski Nation was established in 1973. It is a Political Territorial Organization representing 49 First Nations communities of Northern Ontario, with a total membership on and off reserve estimated at around 45,000 people.
Nishnawbe Aski Nation represents the socio-economic and political aspirations of its First Nation members to all levels of government in order to allow local self-determination while establishing spiritual, cultural, social and economic independence.
[Translation]
Before we hear our witnesses, I would like to introduce the members of this committee who are here this evening.
[English]
On my left is Senator Lillian Dyck, deputy chair of the committee, from Saskatchewan. Next to her is Senator Larry Campbell from British Columbia. On my right, is Senator Nancy Greene Raine from British Columbia. Next to her, is Senator Don Meredith from Ontario. Next is Senator Jacques Demers, from Quebec and Senator Dennis Patterson from Nunavut.
Members of the committee, I ask you to help me in welcoming our witnesses: from the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre, Mr. George Ross; and from Nishnawbe Aski Nation, Terry Waboose, Deputy Grand Chief. We really look forward to your presentations, which we hope you will keep as tight as possible so that senators will have the opportunity to ask questions and further enhance our knowledge to prepare a better report.
George Ross, School Administration Advisor, Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre: Ekosani — thank you for inviting me to address this committee.
The euro-centric education system has taught us not to trust our own indigenous ways of learning and knowing. Today we are crying and searching for answers. Why? The majority of our children are not successful in Canadian First Nations schools and later are not able to flourish in either or both worlds.
The indigenous ways of knowing and learning must be transmitted to the present day structured learning systems, but the best way is the creation of a First Nations education system where our creation stories, spirituality, teachings, traditions, values and languages are the foundation.
A recommendation from Wahbung, 1971, is: "There must be a redefinition of education in a total context.'' Another quote is: "The need for radical change, a complete overall of the education system for our people is the basis of required change.'' That is from Verna Kirkness, 1999. Today, there is some acknowledgment about the dismal state of First Nations education systems by the federal government. Some new funding programs — for example, the FNSSP — have been implemented.
Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada calls it education reform. It has to be a transformation. In my language, nehiyawak, or Cree, it is called kweskâtisiwin. Reform is not the answer.
In Manitoba, many reserves the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre serves are calling for the creation of a collective, a school division/district under First Nations jurisdiction. They see strength in unity as the potential for success.
The mechanism of governance has to be a process beginning with asking the parents, guardians, grandparents what they envision as a sound First Nations controlled education system, i.e., curriculum, organizational structure and governance. How do they see student success? All members of the First Nations community have to be part of this process. Many initiatives have failed because they have been directed from the top down — not a process where all stakeholders have had input so that ownership is developed by all.
A well structured and funded education system for First Nations learners is needed so effective second-level services can be developed and delivered. A First Nations school board or council will mandate school programs to improve student learning. The formation of a collective, i.e., in Manitoba, a First Nations model, will have its laws, legislations with a First Nations education act. An opt-in implementation format could be an option for reserves.
Since the Wahbung document came out in 1971, and even before that, the First Nations people of Manitoba expressed a desire to establish an education system that meets the needs of all learners. The Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre was established in 1999 as an educational reform initiative supported by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs. It was established as an education reform strategy in response to the need for second- and third-level coordinated specialist services for First Nations band-operated schools. The long-term goal is to establish, develop and implement a framework for a First Nations education system that reflects First Nations philosophy of education as a lifelong journey consistent with First Nations values, traditions, languages and teaching methodologies.
MFNERC provides second and third level service to approximately 54 schools — close to 50 reserves — with an approximate total enrolment of 15,000 students plus adult learners in MFNERC initiated training programs. There are approximately 115 employees at the centre.
Our vision is to support First Nations to develop and implement a comprehensive holistic education system inclusive of First Nations languages, world views, beliefs and traditions with exemplary academic standards under First Nations jurisdiction. Our mission is to help First Nations improve education for all learners to achieve — translations in Cree, Ojibway, Oji-Cree, Dene and Dakota.
Under objectives and goals for 2010-11 fiscal year, the MFNERC recognizes that in keeping with the vision, it must continue to work toward building capacity. To facilitate the vision and mission, the MFNERC has set six objectives for 2010-11 fiscal year. This work plan is submitted to AANDC yearly. They are: 1) to build capacity in partnership with First Nations and other organizations through professional development, coordinated support services and networking; 2) to help strengthen First Nation educational institute development, education management and governance capacity; 3) to help improve the effectiveness of classroom instruction through capacity development in the areas of curriculum delivery in First Nations language program development, pedagogical improvements, school improvements and education reform initiatives, as well as the development and enhancement of technology in the school; 4) to build awareness of an importance of community and parental involvement that will result in positive school and community relationships in a supportive learning environment; 5) to support education reform to reach the Manitoba First Nations' vision for education excellence through research and development; 6) to build capacity in the areas of efficient and effective data collection and reporting.
There are two major initiatives that the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre has continued to be involved with. The first is the Education Reform Initiative. During this fiscal year, MFNERC continued work on the Education Reform Initiative with an overall objective to enable First Nations educators to deliver the best possible education to first Nations children.
These new initiatives will enhance the services currently provided by Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre with a focus on literacy, numeracy, student retention, school planning, school learning assessments and performance measurement as identified by the First Nations Students Success Program and the Education Partnership Program, EPP.
With respect to First Nations education governance systems, under the direction of MFNERC board of directors, MFNERC continues to assist the Manitoba chiefs in developing a regional First Nations educational system. A working group was established to develop a concept paper that would outline the draft options for potential First Nations education systems for review by the education directors as well as the chiefs with the educational portfolio and AMC Chiefs-in-Assembly. This process will involve all stakeholders once all the research is completed and compiled.
This is a capsulated version of governance and service delivery structures that are being developed and implemented by the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre for all learners in band-operated schools in Manitoba. The second and third level services are continuing to develop, and the initiatives are beginning to get support and appreciation from our communities. The trust is being built. Relations are being built. The next step is a First Nations education system for our people.
Ekosani — thank you — for your time.
Terry Waboose, Deputy Grand Chief, Nishnawbe Aski Nation: Thank you.
[Mr. Waboose spoke in his native language.]
I am Terry Waboose, Deputy Grand Chief for Nishnawbe Aski Nation, and I am honoured and pleased to be here. Chair, senators and committee officials, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this evening. I have travelled here to deliver a cry for help from the youngest of our members living on the 49 First Nations across Northern Ontario that constitute the Nishnawbe Aski nation. These youth are knowingly and systematically being denied the quality of education that your children and grandchildren are afforded.
Despite constitutional rights to the contrary, it is an undisputed fact that if you are a status Indian living on a reserve in NAN community, you will not receive the same level, range or quality of education services available to the rest of Canadians who are not status Indians and who do not live on the reserve.
As the former Auditor General has made clear in her several reports on First Nations education, the achievement and graduation levels among our students fall far behind provincial norms. Despite the commitment and dedication of education leaders and staff, who, time and again, go above and beyond to afford our students the best quality education they can, challenges and the education gap continue to grow. By allowing this situation to continue, Canada is knowingly perpetrating an education crisis in our First Nation communities. This is a crisis that manifests itself in many ways among our youth. Without access to an education that prepares them for a meaningful, healthy and productive life, too many of our youth do not see a future in which they fit and are then turning themselves to self- destructive behaviour, including suicide rates unparalleled with the rest of country.
Many of our youth as young as 13 are required to leave their home community to attend secondary school in an urban setting. Tragically, and for reasons that need to be fully explored, this has resulted in the deaths of seven NAN youth under similar circumstances while attending secondary school in the city of Thunder Bay.
However, the vast majority of NAN students attend First Nations band-operated schools. Our vision is that students of all ages will have a choice and access to quality education programs and services throughout their lives, providing each learner the opportunity to acquire the knowledge, skills, abilities and self-confidence necessary to realize the individual life choices.
Our education organizations work to develop curriculum that supports immersion programs, culturally appropriate resourcing and the many essential services required for our schools, but they are forced to do so without core sustainable funding, which impedes their success.
Fundamental change is required. We are frustrated by the stopgap approach of Indian Affairs, whose response to our pleas for help and the Auditor General's reports is to put in time-limited proposal-driven programs. We do not need another panel of experts convened and appointed by the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs to outline the education problems we all know exist. Offering us yet one more paternalistic process will not result in substantial change.
The band-operated funding formula, the foundation of our community-run schools, dates back to 1988. This formula is now 23 years old. Think of how much has changed in the last 23 years. Think of how much has changed today. Our First Nations are trying to run schools on a formula from the 1980s that does not provide for libraries, technology or extracurricular services. The outdated formulas used to fund education programs and services on reserve continue to impede our education system.
Tragically, several First Nations Nishnawbe Aski Nation do not even have schools. Many students attend schools in retrofitted buildings or in portables, temporary solutions that eventually become long-term solutions. We have students who have never been to a real school, and we do not know if they ever will.
The deficiencies that exist in funding for education capital and infrastructure plague First Nations right across Canada and have created the crisis situation in Nishnawbe Aski Nation.
One NAN community has not had education programs or services for more than five years. In fact, there are children in that community who have never been to school, but neither the provincial nor the federal government feels that they have the responsibility to address this injustice.
There is currently a 12- to 15-year-old backlog in new school construction in NAN territory. The majority of the schools in NAN territory are over 20 years old and have many safety and space issues, including mould, overcrowding, unsafe air and water quality, portable classrooms and a lack of sufficient operating and maintenance funding.
The majority of Canadians have never seen what passes for schools in isolated First Nations communities, and they do not truly understand the type of environment that has been deemed appropriate for our children. This is a terrible injustice, and it has to come to an end.
The Nishnawbe Aski Nation is currently engaged in education jurisdiction negotiations with the Government of Canada. Our goals are clear. First, we must have meaningful control over governance in our education programs. We must have safe, healthy and appropriate facilities. We must have a range of educational programs that meets the needs of learners in a culturally appropriate environment. We must have an education system that is appropriately funded and recognizes the real costs incurred by isolated First Nation communities. We must have access to quality education programs and services at all levels of lifelong learning, including early childhood education, kindergarten to grade 12 and all opportunities for post-secondary education, including sustainable First Nations Aboriginal institutes.
We are prepared to work in partnership with the Government of Canada to ensure these objectives are met, but we are no longer prepared to be passive observers to our own future. Given the state of education in our communities, we are forced to question whether Canada actually cares about First Nations children. It should not be this way. We deserve better. Our children deserve better, and Canada certainly deserves better. Meegwetch — thank you for your time.
The Chair: Thank you very much, deputy grand chief.
Colleagues, if that does not send a message that we should all respond to in a positive way, I do not know what does.
I want to thank you both for your excellent delivery.
I would like a response from both of you on whether you feel there is a role for a national First Nation education body to support regional education authorities. I guess this would be considered the fourth level. If you agree, what do you think should be its role and responsibilities?
Mr. Waboose: First, I think it is essential, but in the case that I just outlined we are looking at getting the basics, the bread and butter issues related to education for us. I mentioned the infrastructure gap, just the condition of our First Nation schools. I think that has to be looked after first, then obviously the programming that is required to have our schools on par with mainstream society. We would be agreeable to looking at that, and that is what I would like to see.
In terms of shedding additional light on my presentation, we have 7,400 students under the band-operated funding formula. In my presentation I said that that funding formula has been in place for 23 years, so we have that many kids under that antiquated formula. Obviously, right from the beginning they are not on a level playing field.
We have 31 First Nations schools that are operated under that formula as well. At the same time, we also have two urban-based First Nation high schools, one in Thunder Bay and one in Sioux Lookout, and we also have 10 First Nations that utilize Internet high school.
When you talk about having a national entity to look at those kinds of services, I agree that we would need that. However, from my standpoint, I think the basic structures of a proper school is what is required more.
Mr. Ross: That is the vision; that is the dream.
The Chair: The fourth level?
Mr. Ross: Yes. However, as my colleague stated, we need a mission to realize that dream. What steps will we go through to reach that? If we are going to create a national body, where do we start in terms of getting our people really involved in the education of their children? We start at the grassroots. As my colleague stated, we build our schools and our education systems. At the same time, there is work being done to create this.
We are united as First Nations people. Historically, we have always been united. That was the key to survival. My colleague and I were just talking about hunting. It is a matter of a team working together to be successful in hunting.
In terms of working together, there are things happening at the local and national levels. It becomes a process. There has to be a timeline and there must be things in place. That is our dream.
Senator Demers: You are living in Canada, are you? This is unacceptable. You are living here in Canada? This is our country, right?
Mr. Ross: Yes.
Senator Demers: I have been in the Senate for over two years. You gave a good presentation. It was a cry for help. Your children are denied the opportunities that other kids have. I just do not get it. Are we in 1950 here? No, we are 2011. I just want to make sure.
You mentioned 23 years. The longer these kids do not go to school, the more suicide and crime there will be. This is not right. I have listened carefully, and I have certainly asked questions to the right people, because I am new at this.
Is it all about money and structure? It just does not make sense that kids who want to go to school — some do not; you know that. Some do not in Quebec City or downtown Montreal. They do not live on a reserve and they do not give a hoot about going to school. However, a strong majority of your kids want to go to school. Why can they not have that privilege that other kids have?
What is your thinking on that? I am a bit angry because I do not think it is fair. I am thinking of those kids. I can see a 12-year-old girl who is pregnant, a 14-year-old kid on a corner somewhere tonight who is drunk or stoned. It happens, and you know that. What is going on here?
Mr. Ross: We see that in our communities; we see that in our systems in Manitoba. What happens in those schools when the children come to school unprepared is that academics are not even on their radar. From my personal perspective, we need to start by looking at our people. These children you are talking about that we see, where are they? They are going about aimlessly. There is no direction; there is no purpose to their life. There is something missing, and that is a sense of being First Nation, a sense of pride. If you have that, and if you have the language and traditions, that is a strong foundation for success.
What are we looking at in our schools? It is the curriculum. Let us develop a curriculum that will meet the needs of these students. Maybe that is where we need to go to develop the language. How would I feel if I could not speak the language? What self-esteem would I have?
The cycle of inter-generational residential school needs to be broken. The school system is the place where it will be broken eventually. The children who come to these schools are the products of inter-generational residential schools. We need a strong foundation in our school system to break that. However, we need the supports and structures. It is incomprehensible sometimes.
Also, let us look, on the other side, at our people, our citizens. They know that we need this. They know. However, they have not been given the tools to be able to look at that, to examine our situation in order to know where we need to go.
We know the reasons. If we build the structure — the foundations with these children who are coming to our schools — the future looks bright. However, we need a lot of support and we need to build. We need to develop as our own First Nations people. We need to take responsibility. We need to do that ourselves.
The Chair: I am going to ask you a question, Senator Demers. What do you think the reaction would be if seven youth had committed suicide in West Vancouver, British Columbia, Westmount in Montreal, or Forest Hill in Toronto? Do you think people would be sitting by idly?
Senator Demers: No. I think we would make a bigger deal if it was these rich kids. Let us forget Westmount because I live in Quebec. All of a sudden if one of those kids die, it is like, "Okay, just another one gone.''
No one seems to care that much.
The Chair: There is not a place called hope? These First Nations children are Canadians.
Senator Demers: That is why I asked if they lived in Canada.
The Chair: I know that. Thank you.
Senator Campbell: How many students do you have who fall under your umbrella in Manitoba, Mr. Ross?
Mr. Ross: About 15,000 or 16,000.
Senator Campbell: And how many of them are on reserve?
Mr. Ross: That is the number on reserve. We work with band-operated schools. We work with kids on reserves.
Senator Campbell: What is your success rate?
Mr. Ross: High school?
Senator Campbell: Yes.
Mr. Ross: For graduation, I would say we are getting up to 30 or 40 per cent.
Senator Campbell: What is different with your system on reserve to systems off reserve? Why are you getting 30 to 40 per cent — and we know that the numbers are probably somewhere around 28 per cent maximum — and maybe 4 per cent go to university outside that? How do you get these numbers?
Mr. Ross: We build relationships with our schools. These are our relatives and our people. We understand and we are in this together in terms of providing a successful environment for our children.
When I asked that question, someone told me in one of the reserves that, "We make them succeed. We make sure they succeed.''
Senator Campbell: How many children are involved in your system, Chief Waboose?
Mr. Waboose: Approximately 7,400 under the band-operated funding formula. We also have close to 700 who are in provincial boards, meaning that the First Nations that are close to urban centres would have tuition agreements with the local school board. In total, we have 8,100.
Senator Campbell: The money given for those students going off reserve is not the same for the money given for the kids who are not First Nations?
Mr. Waboose: What happens in our case is a straight formula. As I indicated before, it is 23 years old. That is what a band-operated school would get. Typically you are looking at $4,000 to $5,000 per student. If that same First Nation student were to go to a provincial school, it would be up to the board where that student attends. They would pay the going rate. In some cases, it is double. We have had situations where some of the First Nations have had to pay $13,000 per student as opposed to what they would get for that same student on reserve, which is $3,000 to $4,000.
Senator Campbell: We are not talking here about urban/rural, between Manitoba and Northern Ontario. Correct?
Mr. Waboose: In my view, it is about equity in terms of what extent a provincial school board is funded to as opposed to a First Nations school.
In our case, we are more than rural. We are isolated, fly-in First Nation communities where 34 of our First Nations do not have all-weather roads. You would have to fly into those communities. Typically, you are looking at a 3,500- foot airstrip that is serviced by one or two local airlines. The cost of moving materials and people is rather expensive.
If the winter is good, we have winter roads for two or three months of the year. That is where a lot of the First Nations communities try to get their infrastructure materials, housing materials and other infrastructure that is required. That is when they try to move. It is a cost-saving not only to the First Nations. The cost of doing business is lessened by the availability of a two or three month window. With global warming, as you know, we have had drastically reduced winter roads in three of the last five years. Basically everything is flown in.
Senator Campbell: I am on a bit of a roll here.
This sometimes confuses me. If I were able to say that I would fund Aboriginal education because of obligations that Canada has towards First Nations, but I need one group to oversee it, would the First Nations be able to get together and form that group — I have always believed this — or would it be like asking England, France, Germany and Italy to form the European Union? That is the question I have.
Where I am moving to is I want to get rid of Indian and Northern Affairs. I have wanted to get rid of them for six years. I am more convinced every time I come here and every time I listen to people. However, to be able to do that, the Canadian government cannot deal with 300 First Nations. It just cannot happen.
My question is: Would the First Nations be able to form that umbrella and take care of their educational needs if I lived up to my commitment under treaties or simply under United Nations? If I lived up to that, could the First Nations do that?
Mr. Waboose: It would be a challenge. As you know, there are over 600 First Nations in Canada.
Senator Campbell: I am from British Columbia.
Mr. Waboose: We are all unique in terms of language and culture. My friend and I are Ojibway, but we are different in terms of our practices. I can see in some areas that it would be feasible in terms of having fewer institutions, or fewer organizations to manage education. In our areas it could potentially work because we are an isolated group. If three or four First Nation communities that are close together could band together to form one school board, then it is feasible. One would be a bit of a challenge.
Senator Campbell: How about provincially?
Mr. Waboose: Possibly.
Senator Campbell: How about each province.
Mr. Waboose: In Ontario, that would be difficult as well.
We have a lot of treaty areas, post-Confederation and also friendship treaties. It is different. I could see a lot less than 600, anyway.
Senator Campbell: In 2004, the Auditor General recommended that INAC develop and implement a comprehensive strategy and action plan to close the education gap. In a recent Auditor General's report, the Auditor General has not maintained a consistent approach and INAC cannot demonstrate improvements to date.
It is seven bloody years. They have not done a thing in seven years. Will I be sitting here 12 years from now listening to the same thing, hearing that some Canadian kid could not get an education? Is that what will happen?
Mr. Waboose: If we keep going the way we are, we will be here another seven years from now.
Senator Campbell: It is not acceptable.
Mr. Waboose: No, it is not.
Senator Campbell: It is not acceptable because that kid will be in jail or dead.
Mr. Waboose: It is not acceptable. If we invest — and I say invest — in those children in terms of schools and programming that is equitable to what everyone else gets, then perhaps we will not be talking about it. However, if they keep choosing to have another study or panel or whatever, we will be sitting here in another seven years. The unfortunate thing is that we will have a lot more students who have, as you say, fallen by the wayside.
Senator Campbell: It is what government does best. We have sat here and heard about issues of no water, no education, no power, black mould and bad housing. I just cannot take it anymore, and I do not know what to do; I really do not.
I will tell you something. You have way more patience than I have; way, way, way more patience than I have. I cannot stay here another 12 years and listen to this. We have got to come to some solution somehow. It is not just this government; this has been going on since 1867, and probably before that. It breaks my heart; it just breaks it.
I am sorry, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Do not be sorry.
Mr. Ross: To respond to your question, let us ask the parents. I am in Cross Lake, in Manitoba. It is a community of 6,000 people. We talk about education. I am from there, and I was one of the fortunate ones who went out and got an education and was successful. However, I am also a survivor of the residential school system.
Why was I one of the fortunate ones? I had the family structure at home. There was a strong foundation. In our way, in the Cree way, the first teaching or law that we have is miyo-ohpikihâwasiwin. That means "good child rearing.'' I was one of the fortunate ones.
You asked a question about graduation rates. We create an environment where the children will succeed. We create that environment in the school system. We are building those relationships, and these are our people. They are telling us that we need to unite. These are parents. These are not political leaders but parents. They see that already, that we need to unite. The way out of suicide and despair is through getting a good education. That is based on our beliefs and our values.
Maybe that is why I was fortunate, because I had those values. I could live and work where I wanted to. That is what we want for those kids.
Senator Campbell: I have not heard one First Nation come here and express any other belief than what you have just said. I do not care whether they were Haida or Tzouhalem or Musqueam or Cree. They all started with the same basic premise. That is your premise.
What would happen if I sent Mr. Ross to Mr. Waboose's community to show what is happening in Mr. Ross's community to help them there? Certainly you would accept that; you would want that help. Does it matter that he is not of the same First Nation? No.
I would like to hold a meeting where there was a united front and every single First Nation came in, or the vast majority, and said, "Our beliefs are all the same. We believe in family and in the earth. We have the same structures.'' The gods and spirits might be different, but you have the basic need. INAC would roll over and be dead if you ever did that, because we rely on First Nations fighting each other for that little dollar.
Senator Dyck: It is hard to follow up with these questions. You have really touched our hearts tonight with your testimony, and I want to thank you for that.
I will start with the easy question first, and that is to follow up on the funding question. Certainly a big part of the difficulties that you describe arise from the funding inequities based on whether the student attends school on reserve or off reserve. We heard in other parts of the country that if one of their students attended an off-reserve school, they had to pay the difference from their own budget that they got from Indian and Northern Affairs. Does that occur with you as well?
Mr. Waboose: In our area, they refer to it as parental choice. This means that if you want your child to attend a provincial school, then you have to foot the bill. It is not partial; you have to foot the whole bill. The only exemption that they will allow is for academic reasons or if you have a high school that does not offer that type of program.
A student will have to be deemed "gifted'' or "special'' by the department before they will pay for the tuition; or if your school does not offer that academic course, or that course is not available, then they will be willing to pay, in our case.
Of our eight First Nations that have high schools, they do not even have an academic stream; they have just a regular stream. They do not have an academic stream that would allow a student to go to university or college. That is our situation.
Mr. Ross: In Manitoba we are different. We are fortunate. About a third of our communities are isolated. Many our communities are accessible. The infrastructure is manageable.
In terms of programming, we are a service delivery organization. We deliver those programs for our schools. We provide professional development and best practices for our teachers. We are maybe looking more at quality control. We want to have the best possible education for our children.
We work well with the administrators of the schools and the communities. This is what good education should be. That relationship building is very good. I enjoy it.
I work with school principals myself. I am what you call a school administration adviser.
I work with principals and we look at school planning. We look at best practices. We look at all kinds of programming. We look also in terms of professional development for teachers, and we are starting to see that there are a lot of programs. It is amazing how well those schools do with the limited resources they have. I am amazed sometimes what programs they can offer the children and how good the programs are.
Just imagine if we had equality funding. The gap I would say would be narrowed in a short time, but with that is leadership. I think that is what we were looking at in terms of education leadership. For things to work in any school or any organization, there has to be strong leadership. We are building that capacity for strong administrators, and we expect those administrators to be strong because they are working with our children. Most of these are our own people.
Senator Dyck: My next question, then, has to do with what you would recommend that we do. The situation that Chief Waboose has described clearly is critical. Something has to be done right away. There are the short-term emergency things that need to be done. The funding, as you suggest, may be one of those things. Then there is the long- term solution. The committee has looked at the possibility of legislative changes and, as you know, something like that is not going to give you any quick fix. It will take I do not know how many years. We will still be sitting here, Senator Campbell. Obviously something needs to be done now. If you had to recommend one or two actions that should be taken now in a crisis situation, what would they be?
Mr. Waboose: I guess first thing is, overall, just recognition by the government, depending upon what part of the country you are from, but in our case, as equal treaty partners. In our case, we signed our treaty in 1905, and that treaty meant for us that we would share the land with the Crown and the settlers in exchange for mutual benefits. That is where I would start first, in getting that recognition from the other side that you are equal partners and that you have equal access to the land resources and revenues from there. From there, we can design the programs and services in all areas that First Nations require, just like everyone else.
I have been to many of our First Nations communities. You talk to a person on the street. Even though it is not paved, they will tell you they want the basic things like proper health care. They want food. They want to be able to have their kids go to a nice education facility so that they will be able to get a job just like everyone else, and from there provide for their own families. I think that is where we would start, is having that recognition that as First Nations people we are partners and that we need to develop this country together. From there, I think everything else would fall into place, but until that will is there, then it is going to be a challenge. That is my political answer to that.
Mr. Ross: I would not provide a political answer; I will provide just a teacher answer, working on the reserve. Let us say, for example, I will go to a community at Red Sucker Lake. If I had a wish, let us have equality of funding — teachers' salaries, supplies, fix the schools up, develop curriculum, develop programs. Just not look politically at the political part of it, how it is administered, the ideal, but let us look at the ideal, the vision. That is where I would go. Man oh man, I would see a lot of improvement. If we create a system along with that, that provides that checks and balance, the accountability, we will catch up in no time.
Senator Meredith: Gentlemen, thank you so much for appearing before us this evening. I am heartbroken about the situation, and I share the same feeling as Senator Demers and Senator Dyck and Senator Campbell with respect to this ongoing set of deliberations that continue. As a new senator, I have been familiar with some of these issues as someone who has worked with youth in the city of Toronto, and hearing the plight of young people moves me — hearing of suicides and drop-out rates. It is no different within the black community where four out of ten are dropping out of school for various systemic reasons. Those same reasons extend to Aboriginal communities across this nation. I think it is time that we focus on education for all Canadian youth. Irrespective of where they have been born in this country, they are Canadians. I think that is the important question here that we need to get to. How do we educate our youth?
My question to you, Mr. Waboose, is about leadership and the desire for leadership to take control of the situation, irrespective of where they reside in this country. Is there a willingness on their part to really move this process forward, putting aside egos, putting aside their differences and focus on one word, "education?'' Is there a willingness on the part of the leadership to do that? You are a grand chief. You meet with these other chiefs. I think that is where the problem lies, is in the leadership. I think it is important.
Senator Campbell, I feel your passion here regarding this, but I always get back to this as someone who has had to deal with organizations and leadership. They are the problem in moving processes forward. I feel passionate about our youth. I feel I want to see change. I want to see young people educated because, again, they are not only our future, they are our present, and they have present-day challenges that must be dealt with.
My question to you, grand chief, is this: Is there a willingness on the part of the leadership to really come together as a united force to make sure that we see change and that we are not here another seven years from now talking about this very same problem? That is my first question.
Mr. Waboose: Thank you, senator, for your question. Certainly that vision that you are talking about in terms of education being a priority is one that I have personally, the ones that I have and the colleagues that I have in the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, because they see education as a priority. That is why I am here, and that is why I have been here at every opportunity that I have had to work with the other chiefs. I work with the Assembly of First Nations chief's committee on education. I have done that since I have been elected five years ago, to see those positive changes that we all want to see. I see that. I see that willingness to work together to make education a priority. From our end, I certainly see that, but when that hand is offered or extended to our partners, it is not there in return.
Senator Meredith: Who are those partners?
Mr. Waboose: You just talked about INAC. We try, at every opportunity, to make positive changes. In our area we look forward, too. As I mentioned in my presentation, we are in education jurisdiction negotiations with the federal government right now. We are at the stage where we are almost in our final agreement negotiations. We have been in discussions, negotiations with the federal government for 10 years — 10 hard years — in seeking that partnership in education.
They have been hard years, but that is our commitment. That commitment has been there and continues to be there.
From our standpoint, from my standpoint, I see that priority in me and the leadership, and it extends down to the administrators and the organizations that provide those services for our youth.
Mr. Ross talked about those people who work. We, too, have a lot of educators. Despite the funding gaps, the infrastructure deficit, they do a heck of a job in terms of trying to educate our youth. However, the fundamental problem is that there must be a willingness on the part of our partners, be it the province or the federal government, to work with us, not say that, well, we need to examine this education issue further, we need to have another panel or another study.
There have probably been hundreds of studies on First Nations, and probably 20 on education in the last number of years. I do not wish to see that continue. I want to see practical, on-the-ground answers to help our youth succeed in education. I commend you for your passion, too. Thank you.
Mr. Ross: Have you ever seen a great school with a poor leader? Have you ever seen a poor school? Have you ever seen a great school with a poor principal or a poor school with a great leader?
I look at that as a political person. I am a teacher. Put them together, we are talking about the same thing.
In terms of leadership, in the schools that we see and we work with, the good schools, the schools that graduate a lot of grade 12 students who go on to post-secondary and do well, leadership is the key in those schools. The administrators are well educated, they have a vision for First Nations education and they have strong cultural roots. They know where they want to go. They have a passion for it and they push it.
As a leader, the greatest thing for a leader, in terms of a principal, for example, is to be able to make those tough decisions and knowing what will happen, the ramifications of those tough decisions. However, you are making that decision for the child's education, for those parents who trust you with their children. That is what I call a leader, to be able to make those tough decisions for the good of the people.
Also, leadership has to have certain components. What are the components of a good leader? That is something that, in working with schools, I see even in the classroom. The classroom teacher is a good leader. I see a lot of qualities that he or she must have to be a good leader. It is having the heart and willingness to take the risk.
Senator Meredith: Mr. Ross, you talk about your vision for First Nations education in a First-Nations-centric way. I am thinking of Afro-centric schools here, excuse me. I am thinking about the Caribbean community, my mind was there for just a moment. We also just implemented an Afro-centric school dealing with the culture and aspects of what was missing from the history books of this country. They felt it necessary to be able to do that, to educate our African students in that. That is the approach that is being taken right now.
You look at your vision of this First-Nations-centric and holistic approach to First Nations education. Elaborate this vision for me. We have heard before from those who have appeared before us about the success of the centres, including the academics plus the cultural and the language. Elaborate for me on that vision, as well as Mr. Waboose, in terms of the way you see a national system being established right across the country. We are talking about four or three tiers. That has not been fleshed out, but it has been tossed around at this committee and by various individuals who have appeared.
Elaborate that vision for me, please.
Mr. Ross: Again, I am not a political person, but in looking at the picture, our parents and communities want something central, a collective. For example, I think we are ready in Manitoba to establish a First Nations school system. The support is there. I think we are ready for it. MFNERC provides that structure in terms of service delivery. There must be the development of a governance system for that, and that is for another discussion.
If we had that entity in Manitoba, and also in Mr. Waboose's territory, Saskatchewan, developing the same. We all have the same aspirations. We come together and we create a national body. It is going to be a lot of work and there will be many discussions. However, if the people want it, if the people have input into it and listen, it can happen. It would be a force.
In terms of consultations, developing regional education, developing that national education act, I guess we call it, the policy, for me it is doable. Like we said, there are differences, but we will put those differences aside for our children.
Mr. Waboose: It is important to know who you are and be comfortable with it.
I consider myself a Nishnawbe person from the land. That is our people; that is where the generation that my parents and grandparents come from, the land. If you are comfortable with who you are, your identity and comfortable with your language, you can succeed in any society. That is the view that I would like to see in an education system for our youth, is to take the best of their culture and their language, but at the same time utilize the system that is out here as well in order to succeed in the larger society.
I think that is where success comes from. If you are strong in your identity and who you are, that makes you proud and makes you want to get up that day to go to school. If we can foster that ability with our students, our youth, regardless of who they are, that is where success comes from.
For myself, I did not go to school until I was seven or eight because my education was on the land. My parents taught me how to hunt, fish and trap, but at the same time they were the last of the generation that could sustain themselves that way. They saw the world changing. They saw the country changing.
They said, "In order for our children to succeed, they need to be educated in the non-native society.'' That is what we did. We uprooted where we came from, the land that my parents loved, and we moved to a town that had a school, where most of the time I was the only Anishinabe in that school. The rest were all non-native kids. At the same time, I succeeded because of the upbringing that my parents and grandparents instilled in me, that you are Anishinabe first. You are a First Nations first. You are Ojibway first. From there, that gives you the strength to conquer or to overcome whatever challenges face you.
My dad was a good hunter, fisherman, trapper and guide. He did all those things. At the same time, he became an aircraft mechanic. My mom became a social worker. Just imagine if he had the opportunity to go to school. When the planes were coming to round up the kids in our area, he was hunting and fishing with my grandfather. He never had an opportunity to go to school. For the good and the bad the residential school was, he missed out. Maybe it was a blessing. At the same time, it stunted his development as well. My mom did go to residential school. It was okay. At the same time, their values were from the land and who they were first. They spoke the language and they still do to this day.
I think that a strong education system for First Nations is what the foundation must be. If there is comparable funding, then just imagine what our contributions can be as leaders. That is what I want to instil in my young children: That there is an opportunity for them, that if they are afforded the same opportunities as any youth in Toronto, Halifax, Vancouver, the Pas, Manitoba, then it is there and the country will be better for it. Folks, let us invest in First Nations education.
Senator Meredith: Thank you very much for your answers. I commend you and your leadership for what you are doing with the limited resources that you have.
My last question is something that is troubling. When a crisis happens in any of our schools across our urban centres and in our major cities, we have grief counsellors. Do you have that in your communities? You talk about 79 young people who have committed suicide. Are there mechanisms in place currently to help to support the families through this time, and the rest of the students?
Mr. Waboose: Again, thank you for your question. At this point in time, sadly, I have to say no, because the resources are so limited. The resources are priorized that the basic education services, the school, get as much as funding to educate the student to the point where you have to make do with what you have or what you do not have.
In the case of the seven youth, I will expand upon them. In all of those cases, they moved from their small, isolated First Nations communities to go to high school in Thunder Bay. We are talking about a relatively short period of time, 2002, when we lost our first youth. This past February, we lost our seventh youth. They were all found on a river. They drowned or something happened. It was because there was no one there when they were most in need. There were not enough support services for them after hours. They are only covered from the time they go to school until the time they leave school. The rest of the time, when you are a First Nation student who has never been to a city, and someone who is 12 or 13 or 14 years old leaving home for the first time, that would be scary to me.
Senator Meredith: I thought I heard 79. My apologies. One is too many.
Mr. Waboose: That is right.
I have called upon the Province of Ontario to call a commission of inquiry as to the circumstances of why we lost those seven youth. Hopefully, with that, we will be able to find some answers; more important, solutions to prevent this from ever happening again to anyone and to anyone else's child.
Mr. Ross: I will take it down to the school level. One of my roles as a school adviser is to develop crisis response plans for the schools, as part of their school planning process. When something happens, there is a system in place that should take care of it.
In terms of the grief counsellors that you mentioned, we tap into the province. We have a very good working relationship with the Province of Manitoba. We share resources. The native organizations have their counsellors — the ones that can afford to have that service. The communities have their own grief counselling system. We tap into the province and into this as part of developing that plan. When something happens, there is a response. They are asking: Why is that happening? What is the root cause of the suicides? For me, that is the loss of a cultural identity. You are going through life without purpose or direction, without a spirit. It comes to the point that many of these children think: What do I have?
We need to create a school system that services the four aspects of the human being: the spirituality, the emotion, the physical and the intellectual. Much of that is a loss of spirit within our youth. If you do not have that spirit, many things can happen. We need to rekindle that spirit and that fire. Through the process that we have right now, for me, as a teacher, the only avenue that we have is the school system. That is why we need to fix our system. Much of it is not coming from the home because they do not have that. We have to create that in the school system so we break that cycle. It is doable.
Senator Patterson: I would like to thank you very much for your presentation. I was thinking, as you both spoke, that we are getting towards writing a report, which we hope will have some impact. Some of our reports have, fortunately.
You describe the problems very eloquently, and the hopes. I think we can use some of your testimony in describing why we need to do something.
I will ask some very specific questions to both of you. First, to Mr. Ross: I want you to tell me a little more about the geographical area that you serve. I want to know if you have any high schools in those communities, especially the smaller communities. I want to know about how the MFNERC came to be created and how it is funded. I think you said it was not really governed well, or it needs governance, but who runs it?
Mr. Ross: I did not say it was not governed well.
Senator Patterson: I am sorry. I did not mean to say that. You were talking about improved forms of governance, which is what I meant to say.
Mr. Ross: That is something we are looking at. We try, as part of our mandate, to improve the forms of governance in the schools. We train school board people and parent councils.
A successful high school, such as the one at OCN in La Pas, has produced many graduates and many post- secondary people. That is a successful high school. What are the components of that? I would have to say the community comes together and supports it with strong leadership.
Senator Patterson: I am sorry. What I was getting at was you said we are calling for a collective, a board. You have the 50 schools and your resource centre serves them. However, you want some kind of a structure. You say now you are ready for a structure, like a school board, that would formalize the area.
Mr. Ross: Yes.
Senator Patterson: Can you elaborate more on that?
Mr. Ross: If we were to have a formal structure, let us say we were a collective and we pooled our resources together, there are 54 First Nations schools with 54 little districts or education jurisdictions. What if we were to form one, with regions?
We would have the buying power in terms of resources and in terms of putting our money together for teachers' salaries, and also maybe a central structure. With the agreement among the people, the people's mandate, this is what will happen in our system. These are the laws and regulations we have to follow.
Right now we do not. We are a service deliverer. We do not have jurisdiction. We can provide the professional development, but we do not have the authority to implement it. It is coming to the point where a lot of schools are building relationships and trusting us and enabling us to do the work. We can justify what are best practices in education and what is good teaching and that is what we want.
In terms of that collective, the people are saying we are ready. Maybe it is time. Given that chance, for example, I could tell my children, "You guys have this much time to prepare to do this; if that happens, you are going to be rewarded.''
Senator Patterson: Right now, you are kind of under the authority of Indian Affairs; you do not have your own governance structure, is that right?
Mr. Ross: Yes; and the overall authority would be the Manitoba chiefs. In terms of funding it, those who have the funding usually have the authority.
Senator Patterson: How do you pool the resources together to fund your education resource centre? Do you get contributions from the 54 schools?
Mr. Ross: Yes. It is proposal driven, under the First Nations Student Success Program. We have put that funding in terms of our leadership at MFNERC. I am pleased with what I see in terms of what is happening with that money, and also what is happening with the programs that we are developing. If I was a parent in the community and I understood what I saw, I would be pleased also.
Senator Patterson: It seems you are kind of halfway toward a school board, which is what you said you were calling for. You talked about a collective structure. We are considering recommending changes to the legislation, or legislative measures. What is in the Indian Act, of course, is pathetic and dated.
If we were to recommend legislative changes that would allow the option to create something like a school board — and I think you said it would have to be optional, or bands could opt out — I know a bit about the frontier school division in Manitoba —
Mr. Ross: Yes, I worked there.
Senator Patterson: Is that your next step? Could we help by providing some enabling legislation, would you think?
Mr. Ross: I am not political. There are many things Mr. Waboose talked about at the political level. I am just a schoolteacher. I would say by all means, yes, we want that.
We are doing a lot of good stuff right now, but we can lead the horse to the water but we cannot make that horse drink. If everyone agrees to legislation — and we have to have our partners, our First Nations people, agree that this is what we want and what we are going to do — then we have that. We will have a central authority that oversees the education system, given the direction from the people.
Senator Patterson: I should ask quickly the same question to Chief Waboose.
Mr. Waboose: In our situation, senator, we are negotiating a self-government agreement in education. The intent there is to replace the Indian Act with an education act.
As I said before, we have been 10 years in that process. It is under the federal government's inherent rights policy. We are at the stage where we are beginning to talk about those things that Mr. Ross was talking about: What model or structure of education will be in that area?
To illustrate my point, it is a big challenge for us, because geographically we are from the Ontario-Manitoba border all the way to Hudson's Bay, James Bay, Quebec, all the way north to Thunder Bay, north to the cities of Timmins and Kenora. From there you are looking at 49 First Nations and 3 linguistic groups. When we talk about a potential model, those are some of the difficult practical issues that have to be discussed.
In our case, we know it is not feasible to have 49 different models of education. Practically, it would not work. Maybe if we get a group of 10 or 15 First Nations that share a common language — say the Cree on the east side — maybe they might want their own structure of governance or education.
You take the Ojibway in the middle and the Oji-Cree on the west side of the territory. Maybe you can look at those types of things. However, those are discussions we are currently having.
At this point in time, we have our own ideas, and our counterparts across the table have their own ideas as well. We are having those discussions. In 1998, when the chiefs wanted to pursue these negotiations with the federal government, the division they had was they wanted their own education system, something that would replace the antiquated Indian Act with something that is more practical, more doable, and that would, most important, have their First Nation students succeed in education.
That is my answer to what we are looking at in our area going forward.
Senator Patterson: Drawing on my experience from the North and hearing the compelling stories about the kids who died from being sent away to high school, is there some thought to creating community high schools?
Mr. Waboose: I go back to the situation of our First Nations. We have a lot of them. Some of them are only 200 in size. The larger First Nations are around 2,000 to 3,000. On average, you are looking at a community that is 400 to 500. For the larger First Nations, it is practical for them to have a high school. There are eight high schools on reserve in NAN. That is why we have two high schools that are located in urban centres. We have a First Nations high school in Thunder Bay and one in Sioux Lookout.
The majority of students who have to attend secondary school have to leave their communities. Again, that gets you into another situation where they are leaving home and they get into those worse situations, what happened to those seven youth.
Even with those eight communities that offer high schools, most of them are only partial. Most of them offer up to grade 10, so for grade 11 and 12 you have to go out. Many of our students go to urban centres like Thunder Bay and Timmins. Some even go to Winnipeg, the ones who are close to the border.
Senator Raine: I know that it is so important to have good teachers. Where do you find your teachers now? How do you foresee those teachers being developed in the future? Do you have a hard time finding teachers who are speaking the language and able to pass the culture on?
Mr. Ross: Yes, we do. Now I remember you. You used to be a champion skier. I remember cheering for you in the Olympics.
Senator Raine: Thank you.
Mr. Ross: Yes, we do. We have the capacity. If we were to become a school district, to be able to create a teacher training centre, we are capable. We have the capacity to do that. We have capable people who can do that and we know what is good teaching. Part of the vision that I have and other people have is creating a centre of excellence, a teacher training centre, language training. We have language teachers who speak the language, but we do not have the curriculum. We do not have the resources to develop that. It is difficult. That is also envisioning a centre where the language is developed, a clearing house. We have some programs at MFNERC where we partner with the universities or with other centres, and we train and accredit our own language teachers. That is what we would like, accreditation, and that accreditation is recognized by the Department of Education, for example, in Manitoba.
There is a struggle with teachers. We cannot hire teachers if we cannot pay them. Our salaries are so low. States like Texas come to Manitoba, a job fair, and gobble up all the teachers because they can afford to pay them and we cannot. Many of our First Nation teachers are going into the field, which is good, but also we have many teachers who come from all parts of Canada who come to our communities. It is a struggle, but if we were able to provide the salary structure, for example, I think we would attract a lot more and higher quality. We have the capacity to train our own people to be good teachers.
Mr. Waboose: The situation is similar in our area, where it is very difficult to recruit and retain non-First Nations teachers, because of what Mr. Ross described as the salary scale. It is not there. We are also not able to afford our teachers the opportunity to register with the Ontario College of Teachers, I believe, because the resources are not there to assist them in paying for their fees and those types of things, as a benefit. They are not able to do that. However, we are working with the college to rectify that situation.
We also have our own First Nations teachers from our communities, and again mostly in the area of language. They would start typically taking native teacher education programs in the mainstream universities, say Lakehead in Thunder Bay for most of them. We have also partnered with other universities to offer that program. Slowly you are starting to see our own teachers going to the mainstream university to get their teachers. Again, the challenge is the same; once they get to the level of experience and proficiency, we lose them to mainstream school boards because of the salaries and benefits and other benefit packages that they are able to get in non-First Nations communities. It is a challenge, yes.
Senator Raine: I understand, Chief Waboose, more or less your territory. Mr. Ross, are you covering the whole of Manitoba or just a part of it?
Mr. Ross: We cover the whole province. We have five linguistic groups. These are band-operated schools. Frontier school division runs some schools and they have tuition agreements with the bands. There are a couple of other communities that are part of other provincial schools, in projects that they have developed from INAC and the band in terms of the further developed resources. Enough resources will better the system of education. There are a few. We cover most of the province.
Senator Raine: For both of you: How many of your communities that you are serving have high-speed Internet connectivity? Chief Waboose, you mentioned Internet learning. How is this organized?
Mr. Waboose: First, the technology, again, is not as readily available as it is here. We are in the process of installing broadband to 29 First Nations, fibre optic cable. That is a three-year project. For our broadband, we rely heavily on microwave towers that exist. Again, that is an older technology and the capacity there is limited. With that, we are still able to offer Internet courses. There are ten First Nations that offer courses over the Internet, and that is done through an organization called K-Net. They offer that service to all the First Nations in NAN, but they are out of Red Lake and Thunder Bay as well. That is something that we have had to utilize as another form of ensuring that we provide some type of education for our students because of the lack of resources. You have to use any means you can to educate your students.
We also have distance education through the radio. It is called Wahsa, and 29 First Nations are part of that program as well.
Senator Raine: You are right; you have to be resourceful. One thing I was a little surprised to hear was when you mentioned that the children coming to school in the cities, in the urban areas, are only looked after while in school and there is no support program for them afterwards. Would it not be better to have a residential home where they would have more of a home setting?
Mr. Waboose: Again, because of the lack of resources, pretty much all the kids have to be boarded out. There is a monthly per diem paid to that boarding home parent.
That would certainly be one avenue, where perhaps we can use those resources to invest in a home like that where all the kids can be together or develop programs whereby we could invest in high schools on the First Nations until perhaps grade 11 or 12. Kids can go to grade 9 and 10 on reserve, and by the time they are 16 or 17, they are a bit more mature and have a bit more life experience than having those kids come like they do now, right in grade 9 at 14 years old.
There are different scenarios and different options that our leadership is always looking at. Again, it is work that takes time and resources.
Senator Raine: I guess the lesson in all of it is there is no one solution for everyone. Obviously, lifelong learning is the goal, so if you are ready to go out somewhere a little later, then there should not be a big rush for it. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you, gentlemen. As you know — and I think you, Mr. Ross, spoke to it — that an authoritative structure is required. This is what we are trying to recommend to the government and to everyone involved. We are considering developing a structure that will give the authority that you spoke of that is missing now in Manitoba in spite of the fact that you have taken giant steps forward.
Unfortunately, it is as you said: He who controls the goal controls the game. However, we hope that if we can recommend a structure or structures, whether it is levels three and four, that we will be able to provide the necessary tools for you people to carry out your work very effectively and efficiently for the benefit of our First Nations children on reserve. Thank you again on behalf of senators.
Mr. Waboose: I want to make a closing comment. First, I want to thank the committee, all senators, for inviting us to come down and share our education experience with you.
I want to extend my hand to you all. Prior to the election, you were working with my office to convene a small tour for some senators of some of our communities, but that kind of fell by the wayside because of the election call, and that is why I am extending my hand again. If there is a future opportunity for some or all of you to attend some of our communities to see firsthand our schools, I had a good tour arranged for you. I wanted to show you, obviously, some of the unfortunate situations, but we have some positive schools as well. We have some nice, state-of-the-art schools that have been constructed over the last number of years. We also have innovative programs.
Most importantly, it would be for you to see firsthand the children and our educators in their home communities doing the best they can to educate our students. That is what I wanted to hopefully show you this past summer. Again, I want to extend that invitation to you for the future, if some or all of you can come for a couple days. We will certainly be happy to facilitate a tour for you. Meegwetch.
Mr. Ross: Thank you. It has been a great experience. I was kind of nervous when I came in, but I feel good now. I think I am on a roll. I met Frank Mahovlich, the hockey great, and I think I saw Justin Trudeau coming in and all the people I see in Ottawa.
I would like to invite you to come and see the Manitoba First Nations Education Resource Centre in Winnipeg. I think you will be impressed by what you see. Come and see it and have a tour. Lorne Keeper is our executive director and Gwen Merrick our assistant executive director. We are proud of it. Come and see it.
The Chair: Thank you for the invitation and the kind words. Thank you for appearing before our committee. God bless you in your work. Carry on.
(The committee adjourned.)