Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 5 - Evidence - April 8, 2014
OTTAWA, Tuesday, April 8, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:35 a.m. to study the challenges relating to First Nations infrastructure on reserves.
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning, everyone. I would like to welcome all senators and members of the public who are here at this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples.
We're not on television today. There are other more important committees that have attracted the cameras. That is just so you know. It's just a matter of the number of committees meeting at the same time, and the cameras couldn't be everywhere.
I am the chair of the committee, Senator Dennis Patterson from Nunavut. Our mandate is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada. We're hearing testimony at the moment on a specific order of reference, authorizing us to examine and report on the challenges and potential solutions relating to infrastructure on reserves, particularly housing, community infrastructure, and opportunities for innovative financing and more effective collaborative strategies.
Today we'll hear from two departments: Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, and Employment and Social Development Canada, which used to be HRSDC.
Before beginning, I would like members to introduce themselves, please, beginning with our deputy chair.
Senator Dyck: Senator Lillian Dyck from Saskatchewan, deputy chair of the committee.
Senator Cordy: I'm Jane Cordy from Nova Scotia.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Senator Lovelace from New Brunswick.
Senator Watt: Charlie Watt, Nunavik.
Senator Sibbeston: Nick Sibbeston from the Northwest Territories.
Senator Meredith: Senator Don Meredith, Ontario.
Senator Beyak: Senator Lynn Beyak, Ontario.
Senator Wallace: Good morning. John Wallace, New Brunswick,.
Senator Raine: Nancy Greene Raine from B.C.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas from Alberta.
The Chair: Colleagues, I know you'll help me welcome our witnesses. First, however, let me express regrets for having asked you all to attend last week only to reschedule your appearance when our first panel ran overtime. Sorry about the inconvenience, and thank you very much for returning today.
From Aboriginal Affairs we welcome Daniel Leclair, Director General, Community Infrastructure Branch; David Smith, Director, Program Design and Regional Partnerships, a frequent guest of this committee; and Karl Carisse, who is also familiar to the committee, Senior Director, Innovation and Major Policy Transformation Directorate. Joining these gentlemen at the table from Employment and Social Development Canada are Irwin Bess, Director General, Federal Programs, Compliance Operations and Program Development Branch; and Annik Wilson, Director General, Regional Operations and Compliance Directorate.
I understand the presentation will be made by Aboriginal Affairs but that both departments will be available to answer questions. This request for the witnesses' appearance flows from some testimony we heard earlier in the committee's deliberations, and you'll give us the background on that.
Daniel Leclair, Director General, Community Infrastructure Branch, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank you for inviting us to speak about fire inspection on reserve.
[Translation]
Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada's role is to provide funding for fire inspections for major public band buildings, such as schools and community centers, on reserve. Between 1990 and March 31, 2014, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada was getting support from colleagues at Employment and Social Development Canada to complete this inspection service for First Nations. As of April 1, 2014, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada has integrated fire inspections into the inspection regime of the department's existing asset condition reporting system, and secured third-party technical groups to complete the inspections.
For context, I will begin by providing a brief overview of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada's role to date in supporting community infrastructure and fire safety inspections on reserve. I will also talk about the parameters of the former service agreement with Employment and Social Development Canada. Then I will provide an update on how we have moved forward as of April 1, 2014, in terms of supporting fire inspections for major public band buildings on reserve in order to ensure continuity in service and enhanced reporting.
[English]
Prior to the devolution in the 1990s, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada took a lead role in the responsibility for the provision of fire protection services on reserves. These services include: fire protection engineering and inspection of major public band buildings; record keeping and investigation; training volunteer fire brigades; identification and acquisition of equipment; defining levels of service; fire prevention and awareness training; negotiation of fire agreements; and fire loss reporting.
This work was initially carried out by Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada regional fire safety officers, and later through a special services agreement by Public Works and Government Services Canada. Around 1990, the government shifted its policy towards transferring fire-related programs and responsibilities from Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada to First Nations, specifically the chief and council. This included the responsibility for the provision of fire protection services, and the ownership and operation of all community assets. Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada's role changed from being the provider of services to the funder of services.
In 1990, recognizing the existing expertise and organizational structure in place at Employment and Social Development Canada, AANDC entered into an agreement where ESDC provided fire inspections and advisory services for 11 types of major public-access buildings on reserve, including: band offices; schools; daycare centres; fire stations; student residences; teacherages; community/cultural centres; areas; gymnasiums; indoor swimming pools; and youth/senior citizen centres.
First Nations could apply to AANDC for funding to address outstanding deficiencies that were identified by these fire inspections. For clarity, I would like to note that Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada does not provide funding for fire safety inspections of privately owned buildings on reserve, including commercial buildings and housing. Such inspections are the responsibility of the owner of the asset, therefore the First Nation.
In 2013, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada decided to integrate fire safety inspections for the 11 types of public-access buildings that it funds into the existing Asset Condition Reporting System inspection regime. This new approach has been in effect as of last week, April 1, 2014.
Asset condition reporting system inspections are contracted out on an annual basis. Roughly one third of the building assets will be inspected each year. This matches the frequency of inspections formerly conducted by our colleagues at ESDC.
The asset reporting system building inspectors are required to have sufficient qualifications and knowledge of the building and fire codes at the appropriate national, provincial and territorial levels. These qualifications must enable the inspector to identify deficiencies related to the building and fire codes, and provide recommendations to address them. Inspections are completed to the standard of either the local, provincial codes or the national code.
Deficiencies related to fire codes will be tracked with all our Asset Condition Reporting System deficiencies and will be shared with First Nations through a comprehensive inspection report for all AANDC-funded major public band buildings. First Nations will also be required to indicate in their First Nation infrastructure investment plans, which are updated each year, how they plan to address the identified deficiencies.
Addressing the deficiencies noted during inspections remains the responsibility of the First Nation leadership.
[Translation]
In conclusion, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada is committed to continue to support First Nations for fire inspection services for the 11 types of assets covered under the 1990 agreement. In addition, we will continue to work closely with First Nations, First Nation organizations such as the Aboriginal Firefighters Association of Canada and other stakeholders to strengthen fire safety on reserve. This remains a high priority issue for our department and we want to support communities in the best way possible to prevent fires and the loss of lives.
I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak on this important issue, and welcome any questions you may have.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you very much for the presentation. For information of committee members, the Employment and Social Development Canada witnesses will not be making a presentation, but we have asked them to be available in case there are any questions of them, since they held this responsibility from 1990 until recently.
Senator Dyck: Thank you for your presentation this morning. The policy is literally very new, as you indicate, and changed as of April 1.
In Saskatchewan, as you probably know, there have been several fires in homes over the last year. There have been four children who died in Saskatchewan in the past six months in fires on reserve.
Looking at what you told us this morning, and the types of buildings that you have entered into an agreement on with Employment and Social Development Canada, you don't list homes. It seems that homes which, depending on the reserve, can be band-owned houses are not captured within what you have talked about this morning. Is that interpretation correct?
Mr. Leclair: Yes, senator, as I mentioned during my opening remarks, we only cover the buildings we call community buildings and the privately owned buildings, such as housing, were not covered in the agreement and will not be inspected in the new regime.
Senator Dyck: Coming from Saskatchewan and given that there have been these unfortunate deaths of children, what can be done? Why aren't houses owned by the band covered under such a policy? Where does that decision originate, or who makes that kind of decision as to what kinds of buildings are covered?
Mr. Leclair: I don't know about the decision, I will have to come back to you. Maybe what I can say in answer to the first part of your question on what can be done is that we are working with AFAC, the Aboriginal Firefighters' Association of Canada, and like off-reserve; we have a strategy on fire protection. Basically we are trying to work on prevention and education, because, in accordance with AFAC, the information and advice they are providing us is that prevention is the best way to prevent the tragic events.
Senator Dyck: Certainly in the last fire that occurred less than a month ago, the mother of the young girl that was killed said that something as simple as a smoke alarm would have been very instrumental. Although this doesn't prevent the fire, it can prevent deaths. In the prevention activities that you anticipate discussing with the Aboriginal Firefighters' Association, would prevention in terms of death be part of the discussion that you will be holding?
Mr. Leclair: Absolutely. We just launched a program that we call BeFireSafe and there are many components on awareness and education. In a region such as B.C., basically they had a program where they provided some smoke detectors. Yes, we are looking and working with AFAC, and also with the band councils and First Nation communities, to see how to improve or do better with regard to prevention.
Senator Meredith: Thank you so much for your presentation, and welcome this morning.
To follow up on Senator Dyck's question with respect to the high volume of deaths that have taken place, some of these infrastructure situations have been around not having access to water or water freezing. I remember there was a case last year where a house burned down simply due to not having access to water.
You indicated on page 6 of your presentation that addressing deficiencies noted during inspections remains the responsibility of First Nations leadership. What process do you go through to ensure that these deficiencies, once inspected, are followed up on? It doesn't make sense that you create a report of deficiencies, nothing is done, and lives are still at stake.
Talk to me about your proceedings for following up. Are there sanctions or measures taken by your department to say, ``This was inspected on February 1. June: nothing has been done.'' What follow-up is there?
Mr. Leclair: I will talk about what we will be doing or what we started doing since April 1, because, before that, as I mentioned in my opening, our colleagues from ESDC were responsible.
I referred to the Asset Condition Reporting System. We are already doing reporting for other types of assets — other buildings. Starting this fiscal year, we will integrate fire inspections into these inspections. With these inspections, when we find deficiencies, we will work with First Nations to address the deficiency and include that in what we call our ``investment plan.'' So they will be able to put in the investment plan what all the deficiencies are and the measures that could be done to correct them. That would be our way to close the loop, if I may use that term.
Senator Meredith: You talk about investments. The major thing that many First Nations come before us to talk about is the lack of resources. We had a chief appear before us and he indicated, ``Senator, we have $267,000 to deal with our infrastructure issues.'' Is there an allotment? Given the fact that these deficiencies exist and have not been budgeted for, will there be a separate line item indicated in terms of Aboriginal Affairs saying, ``We see there are deficiencies. The amount of money we are giving you will not be sufficient to cover those deficiencies''?
David Smith, Director, Program Design and Regional Partnerships, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada: By having the asset evaluated by a competent individual who understands well the building and fire codes, and all the other codes that apply off reserve — because, unfortunately today, these codes do not apply on reserve. By having those assets inspected by individuals qualified at that level, they will be giving a report to the community, but also to the department. That information will be coming into the Asset Condition Reporting System.
There is the link that Mr. Leclair mentioned with the investment plan, there is a funding officer who works with each one of these communities. We will be looking to address and support with the community to address the non- compliance health and safety issues immediately. In the scenario where there is non-compliance and health and safety issues are found, and there aren't sufficient funds within the community envelope to address this, our regional colleague will have to find a solution collectively with the community to try and address this non-compliance. If this is not possible at the regional level, they will come to the headquarters and we will support them in finding a solution to address this important health and safety issue.
Senator Meredith: Can any of the other witnesses elaborate for me: Prior to you taking over this new policy — or the policy coming into place April 1 — what was done previously?
Irwin Bess, Director General, Federal Programs, Compliance Operations and Program Development Branch, Employment and Social Development Canada: I'm happy to do so. First, chair and honourable senators, I would like to thank you for inviting Annik Wilson and I to speak about fire protection.
With respect to the senator's question, fire inspections were conducted on an advisory basis by the Labour Program to First Nation communities on behalf of AANDC. These were conducted at the request of First Nations chiefs and band councils. They were aimed at determining compliance with the national fire code on a predetermined schedule. The schedule was every two and a half years for schools and every five years for other band-operated, major public access buildings.
The key areas of inspections, with respect to your question, were fire spread — so we looked at fire separations and spatial separations; fire detection, presence of smoke detectors and fire alarm systems; fire life safety, such as exit signs and emergency lighting; and fire suppression, fire extinguishers and fire sprinklers.
The findings of these inspections were reported to the chief of the band council, and copies of the report were sent to AANDC and the tribal council representatives for their information. A similar process was applied for the engineering inspections.
Senator Meredith: In terms of that, I go back to my earlier question to Mr. Leclair: What follow-ups were done prior to them taking over? Ms. Wilson, do you want to answer that?
Annik Wilson, Director General, Regional Operations and Compliance Directorate, Employment and Social Development Canada: Yes, please. When there were failings in the inspection of any band-operated building — we call them ``deficiencies'' — they would have been reported in the form of a report, as my colleague Mr. Bess explained, to the band council, AANDC and the chief of the band, and follow-up would be done depending on the severity of the type of deficiencies found. So we either follow up one month or six months later, depending on what was the issue at stake.
We do follow-ups, and there is a compliance continuum where clients are first asked to submit a report about how they will meet the deficiencies identified, and it can go to the department issuing a direction to the band representative as to what needs to be done before we shut down buildings.
So there is a scale of what will lead to a building or situation being found to be found compliant.
Senator Meredith: If you did find them negligent in taking care of the deficiencies, in any way did Aboriginal Affairs step in to say, ``We are going to implement and improve this building''? If it's a school, kids are then out of school, and then they are in the community, not being educated.
Were there any mechanisms in place to ensure that Aboriginal Affairs stepped in to ensure that the building was up to code, so you are not disrupting the lives of First Nations children if it was a situation of a school?
Ms. Wilson: I won't speak on behalf of my colleagues for that, but I would say that the clients in our case were the band council and the chief of the band. A copy was always sent to AANDC, so they recognized what the deficiencies were. But it's really our clients whom we ask to make the steps to be compliant.
Senator Sibbeston: I think the reason we have you officials here today with us is that we had heard concerns from a number of witnesses as to whether there may be a gap because of the transfer from Employment and Social Development Canada to Aboriginal Affairs. In fact, on March 5 this year, Bob Howsam, Executive Director of Ontario First Nations Technical Services Corporation, told the committee:
. . . unfortunately fire protection review and inspection services, formerly performed by Labour Canada, have recently been eliminated. We're concerned that that places the assets and the people who use them at risk. Previous federal government oversight was a check and balance that will not be available in the future and will leave a gap in terms of service.
Do you feel this is true, or do you feel you have done enough to inform First Nations in our country about the transfer from one department to another?
Mr. Leclair: I can reassure you — and I will ask my colleague to go into more detail — that when we were informed that we would transition, we did everything to ensure, starting last week on April 1, 2014, like I mentioned in my opening remarks, that we will continue to provide the same type of services provided by our colleagues. I will mention that we will also integrate that deficiency finding now with the investment plan.
Mr. Smith: Specifically to the Ontario region, where Mr. Howsam is the CEO of the OFNTSC, which is the technical group supporting First Nations communities — one with technical service regarding all asset classes in First Nations communities — the department and the regional office support that organization with funding, so they can have the necessary capacity to be in a position to support these First Nations communities in a variety of activities.
With regard specifically to fire inspections, we personally met with Mr. Howsam on a few occasions. We put a working group in place to prepare recommendations to see how we could leave the existing service that was there and move on the path forward.
What is nice in this new business model is that the information will be integrated into the Asset Condition Reporting System.
Mr. Howsam, in this scenario for the region of Ontario, receives a mandate from the leadership to support First Nations communities in offering these services, receives funding from the department to be able to hire the necessary resources to do the asset condition reports, and fire inspection is one element within an inspection of a building. They will do, for example, the mechanical, electrical, building envelope inspection and fire life safety, and fire protection is one element inclusive in that.
The community will be getting one report, and the technical group in this scenario, which is OFNTSC, also has the mandate to support First Nations communities in addressing some of the non-compliances. For example, the honourable senator spoke about water. They do have that mandate. They also have the mandate on asset condition and MMPs, management performance plans.
By having those First Nations aggregates closer to the communities, hopefully they will take the opportunity to support the communities in addressing the non-compliances. It is within the conditions of what we're asking them to do and being in a better position — a holistic approach — in supporting the communities with these non-compliances or these issues that have been identified.
Senator Sibbeston: My concern is that, while I still appreciate your answer and things may improve, what was done to inform the communities of the change? You are all aware of the changes in Ottawa here, but how about the people out in the country? Were they aware of this change and do you feel there isn't any gap at all in terms of the inspection that is still required on a daily or weekly basis?
Mr. Leclair: Again, we need to recognize that we have been in a week. Basically, we started last week. This is the new regime. I can only say what we did from our level with regional colleagues. We did inform our regional colleagues, who are closer to the community, of the changes that were coming. We are not able to say what the communication was, but I can check with my colleague from the regional office on the band council or the local authority.
Mr. Smith: We have informed all the suppliers that do ACRS of these changes that were coming down in the new business model. This was done in collaboration with our regional colleagues who do have that third-party agreement, our regional offices.
I'm not in a position to tell you if every community has been informed by these tribal councils or First Nations organizations, but it is something that we can follow up on.
Senator Sibbeston: I notice in Mr. Leclair's speech, on page 4, he said that in 1990, recognizing the existing expertise and organizational structure in place at Employment and Social Development Canada, Aboriginal Affairs entered into an agreement where the other department provides fire inspections.
I'm curious to know how it is. Aboriginal Affairs is the department primarily responsible for First Nations in our country, but it seems in 1990 you recognized that another department had more expertise and organizational structure than you, so you let them do the fire inspections.
How is that? Does that not say you are not up to scratch, as it were? You were not really the best body to deal with it and you sloughed it off or gave it to another department to do the job?
Mr. Leclair: Of course I was not there in 1990. What I can say —
Senator Sibbeston: That's not the question. You have to deal with it as best you can.
Mr. Leclair: Sorry, senator, what I was saying is that ESDC, our colleagues, is the expert in fire inspection. They are doing inspections not only on the reserves, but they were doing the inspection for the federally owned buildings. They had that expertise. The reference in my opening remark was only with regard to the fire inspection, not on the question about the overall role of AANDC as an organization dealing with First Nations communities.
The Chair: In that connection, there were personnel from the ESDC in the field that were doing this work. Have some of those personnel transferred to AANDC so as to retain the corporate memory? I'm curious about that.
Mr. Leclair: I don't know, Mr. Chair. I will have to check and come back to you.
Senator Raine: When you talk about aggregates, tribal councils, technical development or technical services groups, is there a model across Canada or is it different in other areas? Is it different between urban First Nations and rural? How is your flow chart, and what type of organizations are you now going to be working with in the new program?
Mr. Smith: The existing business model is that there are roughly 77 tribal councils. We see certain tribal councils, such as the Prince Albert tribal council, which is a very well-organized structure, as a strong capacity. There's a strong hub of expertise there to support those communities.
We also see other tribal councils, unfortunately, that don't have that critical mass of expertise. We have seen the creation over the years, and the department has supported, for example, of OFNTSC, the Ontario technical group, where there is that critical mass. There's also an important group in Alberta, TSAG, which is a technical services advisory group. Within that organization there is a critical mass of expertise, engineers related to all kinds of subject matters.
That is the existing structure which is out there supporting these communities with different services.
Senator Raine: I am from British Columbia. In British Columbia, is there an equivalent of OFNTSC?
Mr. Smith: Unfortunately, there isn't. In British Columbia, as you are aware, honourable senator, there are 203 First Nation communities and they have expanded in many rural areas, so they have structured themselves more with tribal councils.
It is the leadership's model. We do try to encourage critical mass organization technical groups, similar to OFNTSC and TSAG, because, if communities desire to regroup their expertise, it will allow them to be in a better position to address many of the issues or concerns that are out there.
Senator Raine: I come from a rural area community myself and I'm very aware of the challenges to have good fire, health and safety services because it is not only fire, but it is first responders and search and rescue. All of these things come together, in most communities, in a voluntary organization with maybe one or two paid staff.
I'm from British Columbia, and I'm wondering if it would be possible, in this transition period, for Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada to put some effort into finding ways for rural communities to collaborate with each other? We are our neighbours and in order to have good services, especially in the education and prevention services, it just makes sense to work together with your neighbours.
Is there any thought being given not only to looking at First Nations' needs, but also ways that we can do this in a neighbourly fashion, which is only good for everybody?
Mr. Smith: We totally agree with that statement. We encourage First Nations communities in coming up with municipal-type services agreements, whether with fire protection or any other asset class, water, waste water and waste. There are many agreements out there; there are thousands of these agreements that exist throughout the country, where the First Nation leadership has decided to come to common agreement with their neighbouring non-First Nation community, ensuring services.
We are also seeing some First Nations communities offering services to non-First Nations communities. For example, Lower Nicola, which is in your area, senator, is offering fire protection services to their neighbouring non- First Nation community.
We see it in water, and we see it in other related asset class activities also.
Senator Raine: The Aboriginal Firefighters' Association of Canada would be key in developing these kinds of relationships, because they're the professional firefighters who would relate, then, with the professionally trained volunteer firefighters.
Mr. Smith: Yes, we agree with that. We do support them with the funding where it allows them to be at those discussions.
We also supported an initiative with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities where we are not only encouraging them to do outreach to the non-First Nations communities but also inviting the First Nations communities to dialogue to have exchanges on common issues and concerns, and to see how, collectively, they could maybe address some of these issues in good municipal-type agreements.
Senator Cordy: I have a supplementary on the transition issue. Senator Sibbeston raised a good point that in 1990, this responsibility was given to ESDC for fire protection and fire inspections on reserves.
I thought the chair raised an excellent point; namely, had personnel actually moved from ESDC to Aboriginal Affairs? That would be extremely helpful during a transition period.
But why was a decision made in 2013 to take place in 2014 that this exchange would be made from ESDC to Aboriginal Affairs when, in fact, it was given to ESDC in 1990? What were the determining factors to cause this change for responsibility?
Mr. Bess: The decision to wind down the Labour Program fire protection program was a draft Deficit Reduction Action Plan decision.
You asked about some of the factors. It's important to note that the Labour Program fire protection program was an advisory program; it had no compliance or enforcement authorities. It was strictly a service that was being provided to various departments. When we speak broadly about the program — fire protection's responsibility of individual departments under the Treasury Board policy — the Treasury Board policy was revised after the agreement; it clarified the responsibility of departments for fire protection. The Labour Program is merely providing advisory service to departments, in this case on behalf of AANDC at the request of band councils and chiefs, as I noted earlier.
In that context, when we announced the termination of the program in June 2012, we immediately began to work with departments to provide sufficient time for that transition — two years — working with individual departments and collectively. That included Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada.
Senator Cordy: So the decision was made by cabinet in the advisory service, and I think that was explained in the speaking notes, if that's the case.
Senator Greene Raine spoke about the cooperation between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal communities, particularly in remote areas, but even within urban areas. Was that discussion and cooperation brought up, and have steps been taken during the transitional period? The announcement was made in 2013 to take effect April 2014. In that time period of a year and a half, were those discussions taking place regarding cooperation?
Mr. Leclair: We already had a discussion with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, as was mentioned. We have a program with them to basically help us and help the First Nations enter into an agreement with the local community.
With regard to fire inspection, this is just in addition to the ongoing discussion that happened either on water or other services such as the removing of garbage, et cetera.
The Chair: I do appreciate that you have committed to providing the committee with information about the transition arrangements and whether there was some continuity with personnel.
Senator Dyck, was your supplementary on the same theme?
Senator Dyck: Yes. To follow up on this notion of collaboration with municipalities, I'm wondering if there were discussions or plans for training on-reserve First Nations band members to do some of these fire inspections themselves, so that there is capacity-building, as well as provision of service.
Mr. Smith: Senator, if I may take the example of the Prince Albert Grand Council, an organization in your area which you probably know very well, one of our colleagues whom we work with is Richard Kent. He is a member of the Aboriginal Firefighters' Association of Canada. In the 20-some years Richard has been working with the tribal council, he has developed a very good business relationship with the provincial fire marshal's office and also has developed a good business relationship with the training organization in that area.
So there is a continuum of training and capacity-building in these communities. It is very unfortunate what happened in the Saskatchewan First Nations communities, and everyone is very saddened by that.
Richard, himself, AFAC and the Canadian Firefighting Association have brought forward the idea of saying there is a gap in First Nations communities, and the existing gap is building and fire codes.
When the department supports an asset in the First Nation community, such as a school, we assure the building is built up to code, so on the day they cut the ribbon and it is commissioned, it is to up to code.
We assure the building remains to code, because we do an asset condition evaluation on a regular cycle. The new assessment will allow us to identify the non-compliances specifically to fire, but also we are and we have been identifying the asset condition of the building. We will be supporting the community to address that.
But, unfortunately, if, for some reason, there is a non-compliance and the leadership decides not to address that, it becomes a decision of that government and there is nothing within the department structure today, except a financial agreement that we do it administratively — we could possibly say we will stop the flow of the money, but that will not address the issue.
Unfortunately, within the First Nations environments there is that gap. We continue to work with the interested stakeholders. There are many tribal councils, First Nations technical groups — many organizations that are out there doing wonderful work. But, again, the department and these organizations are faced with that reality.
Senator Raine: Would you be able to elaborate a little bit for us? I know that the inspection of housing on First Nations has not been part of your mandate, but in your vision — and I'm sure you are working closely with AFAC — going forward, as Aboriginal communities move into more innovative ways of expanding their housing supply, do you see ways of ensuring that they are inspected and up to code? In what you see happening, is there a way to expand the inspection services from just the public access buildings to private homes?
Mr. Smith: We have had, and we continue to have, discussions with the Aboriginal Firefighters' Association and their regional representatives, because the existing structure of AFAC is a representative per region. Every one of these regions has regional firefighter associations. They work with their respective fire chiefs or fire persons in each community.
We will continue to support education and awareness programs. We are sharing lessons learned, best practices. For example, in the region of B.C., FNESC has gone forward with a fire alarm awareness education program. We are sharing those best practices with other regions and encouraging them to explore that and, if the interest is there, we will support them in addressing that.
On the biggest issue in fire protection, the experts — the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs or AFAC — would state that awareness education is the most important element. The departments will continue to support that and will try to encourage the different organizations to do more structuring.
There isn't a plan of having a building inspector go to every household, but we do encourage it. Again in B.C., in the area of Lower Nicola, the fire brigade goes into homes and does a fire awareness campaign. We continue to encourage regional First Nations organizations in adopting this practice.
Again, the department has no specific plan of doing household inspections.
Senator Raine: Would there be any possibility of funding being supplied to First Nations for them to contract that service?
Mr. Leclair: With the money we provide to First Nations, the band and council can decide what would be the best measure. Of course, as David mentioned, awareness, prevention and education is what the experts are all saying. The band council can use some of the money that we are providing, with regard to fire protection, toward those types of activities.
Senator Wallace: I would like to bring the discussion back to the reason why we asked your departments to appear here today. As pointed out by Senator Sibbeston, it was to give us a sense if there were any consequences at all that would arise from Employment and Social Development Canada no longer providing fire inspection services as of April 1. That's why you are here today; I think you are well aware of that. I have a couple questions on that.
Mr. Leclair, you touched on these in your presentation. The fire inspections that will take place from now going forward, will they essentially be the same as what has occurred in the past, in terms of the nature of the inspection, the standard that would be observed in those inspections, and also the frequency of those inspections?
Mr. Leclair: With regard to the frequency, we will have the same. With regard to the specifics of the inspection, I will turn to my colleague because he's more aware of that detail.
I want to reassure you that the transition is over for us. We are already moving into the action and that started last week. There's no interruption in the level of services.
Mr. Smith: We have worked with our colleagues from ESDC and other government departments in the transition. We have participated in the national standing offer to ensure First Nations communities that would want to have a service would have that ability. By doing that, we put a safety net out there for all these First Nations communities.
Parallel to that, we continue to have discussions with First Nations organizations to assure technical groups, tribal councils and First Nations organizations that the service would be inclusive in the Asset Condition Reporting System. By doing so, we know that the 11 assets that HRSDC was doing for us previously will be covered under the ACRS exercise. That's a condition. We have that assurance. Even more, that data will be in our database, linked in to the First Nations investment plan.
We know that each community receives X amount of money for operation and maintenance. If the community doesn't have the funds to address important health and safety issues, they will be speaking with their CFO, which is their capital financial officer who works with them in the community, and working together to say this is non- compliance, we don't have the funds to address this. They will be looking at the regional office to support that and, if it is not possible, they will be communicating with us and we will find a common solution to address that need to ensure health and safety in the 11 asset classes.
Senator Wallace: Having that information tied into the First Nations — you call it the investment plan — that's what will happen going forward. Is that a change over what has occurred in the past? Or is this an improvement over what happened in the past?
Mr. Smith: We consider this as an improvement, for the simple reason that our regional colleagues were getting paper documents of a report. This will be integrated into a database at headquarters. We will be able to follow the important health and safety issues, working with our regional colleagues in supporting the First Nations communities through tribal councils and First Nations organizations.
Senator Wallace: As you pointed out, Mr. Leclair, the inspections will now be conducted by what you refer to as third-party technical groups. I'm wondering if you feel comfortable that the qualifications required of those third-party technical groups will at least be equal to the qualifications of the inspectors who have been working for Employment and Social Development Canada to date?
Mr. Leclair: We are asking that when we do the request for proposal — and again the First Nations know that — we are helping with the specifications and what they should look for as qualifications for the experts that do the inspection. David, do you want to elaborate on that?
Senator Wallace: On that one, I really want to know if those qualifications will be equal to or greater than what exists to this point.
Mr. Smith: They will be equal to what exists at this point, and the reason for that is we use the exact same terms and conditions as within the national standing offer. It is included in our new policy for request for funding.
Senator Wallace: As you pointed out, Mr. Leclair, after the inspections are done, the deficiencies will be tracked through what sounds like an enhanced system. Will that tracking of deficiencies be equal to or greater than the tracking system that has existed to this point?
Mr. Leclair: As Mr. Smith mentioned, it will be in our integrated database, so I think for information management it will be easier. Again, the important point is that it is linked with the investment plan. It is easier for everybody to see what the deficiencies are, to scope how much it may cost, and to request the funding to correct, at the end of the day, the deficiencies that will be found during the inspection.
Senator Wallace: It seems to me your position is that this new system, effective April 1, will enhance what existed in the past. Is that true? Is that your opinion?
Mr. Leclair: I would say, from what I gather, it would be a very good system, yes.
Senator Wallace: Will it be equal to or enhance what has existed in the past?
Mr. Leclair: Linked with the investment plan, yes.
Senator Raine: If there's a deficiency and it is noted, and there's going to be some capital provision or provision provided to correct it, will it be targeted to that specific issue or will that go into general band funds?
Mr. Smith: Today, communities receive a lump sum, O & M money, to support them with the 11 asset classes. It is expected that those funds are sufficient to address the normal operation and maintenance of these facilities. In the scenario where it isn't sufficient for some reason, there will be a discussion between the community and the department to see how we can address this. We will support the community in addressing important health and safety issues.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Most of my questions were already asked. You asked for a solution; you're looking for a solution. Wouldn't training First Nations in doing these fire inspections be a cost savings, and would it not employ more Aboriginal people in performing these services?
Mr. Leclair: This is a huge opportunity. Last week or this week in the Quebec region, a program started to give some training and education to First Nations firefighters. That will be a good opportunity, not only for employment on reserve, but that could be used for employment off-reserve.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: What about the other First Nations communities?
Mr. Leclair: I was using that as an example to say that with the building capacity, and now going with the education and training, that will not only improve what we think of the situation with regard to fire protection on reserve, but at the same time it would go toward building some credentials and capacity for the members of that community.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: My main concern is that all this money — the inspections being done aren't done by the people themselves. It seems like the money is staying within your department and not going to where it should be going: to the people.
Mr. Smith: The existing model being rolled out today is being done in a more holistic way. The subject experts — the engineers and others who have that capacity related to building and asset condition management — are doing the asset condition reports and are including fire safety assessment in that activity.
Parallel to that, we continue to support firefighters and fire awareness education in communities through different tribal councils and First Nations organizations. In each region, we support funding for training for firefighters. This is done through these First Nations organizations.
So we are trying to build the capacity within First Nations peoples. The example is TSAG, the Alberta technical group, where they have built the capacity internally with fire inspection, fire awareness prevention and education. These are hubs that we encourage other regions to explore.
The department is very interested in building that important capacity within the First Nations people.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I've seen some fire trucks and fire stations in communities, and some of them don't work half the time. Is this part of the group funding the communities get?
Mr. Smith: Through the asset condition report, we inspect on a regular cycle fire halls, fire equipment and fire trucks. These assets are inspected. Again, we encourage the chief and council to support fire protection services in the community. We do that.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Is that all communities across Canada?
Mr. Smith: This is through all First Nations communities throughout Canada. There is, within their A base envelope, funding to support fire protection services.
Again, respectfully, we see different sizes of communities. The AFAC would tell you that you need a minimum of homes or people to have a full fire department. In a smaller community of 150 people, it is more about awareness and education, or ``fire suppression,'' as we call it.
The Chair: You're going to get back to us on the continuity of personnel. Might I also ask, following on Senator Lovelace Nicholas, if it's possible to identify whether inspection personnel may be Aboriginal? I believe the employees may identify themselves and, if so, that might be interesting information for us.
Mr. Smith: Yes, we will look into that. We can assure you that the funds regarding the asset condition report flow through First Nations organizations, whether tribal councils or First Nations technical groups.
Mr. Leclair: One point of clarification is that we don't have employees within the department who do the inspections. Like David mentioned, we are going to the tribal councils or the organizations like TSAG and OFNTSC that provide services for the First Nations communities. But we will check, Mr. Chairman.
The Chair: If you can, I'm sure that would be of interest.
Senator Beyak: I share my fellow senators' concerns about the transition, but I'm more concerned with Senator Dyck's opening statement and the death of the little girl. Through all the past practices and all the future reporting, inspections, levels and dollars, there is an old expression that ``the buck stops here.''
Could you each share your opinions and thoughts on who ultimately bears the responsibility for there being no smoke detector or fire extinguisher in the home where the little girl died?
Mr. Leclair: My opinion is that for that community building it is the band and council — the chief, basically. For the house, it is the owner of the house.
If something happened in my own house, as the owner, I would be responsible for my family. If I am going to the arena, I would hope the owner of the arena would be responsible for our safety. If it is a community-owned arena, I would hope that my council — in this case, my city — would be responsible for that safety.
Senator Beyak: Do each of you have a thought on that?
Mr. Smith: I would share Mr. Leclair's point. I believe that chief and council, firefighters, many stakeholders and homeowners in these communities look to their tribal council for awareness and education. That's where we will make a difference.
It is very sad what happened in Saskatchewan. We have seen stories in First Nations communities and non-First Nations communities. Collectively, if we can support these communities with better awareness and education, the good work this committee is doing in putting the sensitivity on the reality out there and bringing together different stakeholders, we will bring more clarity and more guidance to improving this situation.
Senator Beyak: Mr. Bess or Ms. Wilson, do you have any thoughts?
Mr. Bess: I would reiterate that the Labour Program provided advisory services to First Nations communities at the request of chiefs and band councils on behalf of AANDC. We did not have enforcement or compliance powers. It was an advisory service.
Senator Tannas: It's been a good discussion, and I think all my questions have been answered.
Back to Senator Sibbeston's comments, I would just say that when you folks go about your postmortem on the success of the transition, as a project, you should have a good hard look at communication. We heard from people who didn't have the first hot clue what was going to happen on April 1 — as of March — and they were people who should have known. I wanted to say it, even though it's obvious. Thank you.
Senator Watt: I have two small concerns. One is probably following the point Senator Lovelace Nicholas made as to whether this new organization taking over the new responsibilities will be considered another layer of bureaucracy when the funds could be easily transmitted down to the community level and develop a better link than there is today with the provincial and local governments. Would you provide an answer to that?
Mr. Smith: The funds are flowing to local governments. The local government structure is the chief and council. The other layer of government, or that critical mass that supports these First Nations communities, is tribal councils or First Nations organizations. The department will support funding to these organizations. Fire inspections require certain competencies and expertise. Unfortunately, there are First Nations communities that don't have that ability.
When you can go closer to the communities and create a critical mass, which is this tribal council or these First Nations technical groups, they report back to the leadership. For example, TSAG in Alberta report back to Treaties 6, 7 and 8. As they develop their business plan for the year, they include in this scenario the ACRS, which includes fire inspections. So they need to report back to the leadership and to their chief and council.
We believe it is a model that, in this scenario, will be very effective or more effective than the previous business model.
Senator Watt: Would this be considered as step one, with another step to be taken if there is potential for the band government to work out their relationship better than it is today with the provincial and local governments, which are adjacent to them; would it be correct to assume that?
Mr. Smith: Yes, it would. We are very open to supporting other initiatives that will bring closer relationships to the communities. If the desire to do MTSAs with non-First Nations communities, or neighbouring First Nations communities, we remain very supportive of these initiatives.
Senator Watt: The other aspect raised by Senator Dyck, I believe, concerned those children who were burnt in the building that burned down. Who carries the insurance on this? I know for a fact that for the government, when they put an infrastructure in the community, insurance is not really their consideration.
I'm talking about the human side. With the victims, who is responsible for them and covers the insurance? If the family decides to pursue the matter through the courts, are they equipped to deal with that through the structure you are talking about?
Mr. Leclair: That's a very good and specific question. I would have to go back and get an answer for you.
Senator Watt: Could you get that for us? Because that will have to be considered in our report.
Senator Sibbeston: My question is a supplementary to the question of whether the services to First Nations will be enhanced.
I take it that, up to now, Employment and Social Development Canada had certain personnel dedicated to the inspections that were carried out. Even though it was voluntary in a sense — they weren't able to enforce any recommendations and so forth made — I take it that, now, in Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, there is really no one who will be carrying out the inspections that had been carried out by Employment and Social Development Canada. In that regard, would you not say that the services are decreased to First Nations?
Mr. Leclair: Our role is to develop a standard, and Mr. Smith referred to the standing offer to hire the consultant, the contractor, the tribal council or the technical group to do the inspection.
Regarding the employees, since we have a need with my team in the technical group, as a matter of fact I did hire one of the former employees of Mr. Bess's group. She is an engineer and she is helping Mr. Smith define what will be the standard of the inspection to support down the road, the standing offer to go and hire the people who will do the inspection.
Senator Sibbeston: It would be great to know how many personnel in the Employment and Social Development Canada actually did inspections.
Ms. Wilson: We had a program with approximately 55 resources: engineers, inspectors and management cadre for the entire program. Specific for First Nations, there would have been approximately five inspectors and 2.5 or so engineers dedicated to First Nation work.
Senator Sibbeston: Is Mr. Smith saying that although you don't have five people in your department that will be taking over the roles that were played in the other department, somehow or another you're intensifying or providing monies to these technical groups out there to hopefully do the same sort of thing, and that's your response in terms of having service at the same level or perhaps an enhancement?
Mr. Smith: Each regional office has the critical mass. The department has the critical mass of engineers, who are building engineers. They have that understanding of fire safety and fire protection. At the department headquarters, we have hired a subject expert to ensure that everything was going to be in line; that there wouldn't be any gaps.
We work closely with our colleagues from ESDC to do the tendering policy. We excluded the terms and conditions, which were developed by subject experts, and included them in our policy and in our funding agreement on a region- by-region basis.
For example, if we go back to TSAG, there are several individuals within that organization who would have the capacity, because they are doing the asset condition reports. We have out there third-party, regional colleagues — more than five or seven individuals, for sure — who are available and are subject experts who can discuss and challenge some of the results coming in at a regional office. That's one. Two, there is the third party that's delivering the service. They're already doing these asset conditions, so they were already looking at elements as they were doing their inspections on fire issues, but they didn't have that specific mandate. The inspections were being delivered through our colleagues from ESDC before April 1 of this year.
We strongly believe there is more capacity out there within those First Nation organizations, because the department supports the total cost of the asset condition inspection. In the new terms and conditions, it's an element the qualified individual has to be hired to do that.
Senator Meredith: I stepped out for a minute, so I don't know whether the panelists have been requested to do this. Mr. Smith and Mr. Leclair, as you do these inspections and these reports are created, can you provide to this committee a scan by region as to what deficiencies you found? I'm of the opinion that we always create reports, and they just sit on a shelf somewhere until a disaster takes place, and then we go again and do another report.
This committee is interested in moving the safety of First Nations people forward. We've started in that you've moved over from ESDC; that's now your mandate. I'm interested in moving these initiatives forward. This committee and the members of this committee are interested in doing that as we put our report together.
Could you provide to us a regional scan of these deficiencies found on these First Nations, so that it can be included in our report, so that six months or a year down the road, we can say that this committee released its report and took steps to ensure the safety of First Nations people. We talked about accountability and who is responsible in terms of ensuring that the chief and council are held accountable, as to a report created on such and such a date. I would love to see such a report brought back to this committee, please, if that's possible, without naming various First Nations communities, but just a scan of where the deficiencies lie, by region and so forth. I think that would be beneficial.
The Chair: I'm not sure if our committee can have an ongoing reporting relationship with your department, but obviously the senator is interested in getting some kind of an idea of the scope of deficiencies. Would you be able to suggest how we could get some information about that while we're undertaking this work? I think our expectation is likely up to the end of this calendar year.
Mr. Smith: The reporting cycle is our regional colleague's office, and will be going out to tender in May of this year with a new program policy. Inspections normally start in July until the fall, and the third party has until March 31 to submit their reports to the department. Normally, reports are submitted to chief and council once the inspection has been completed in the community, but we ask that information be integrated into our asset condition module by the end of the fiscal year.
Our regional colleagues have the responsibility to validate the information before it's downloaded for final information. The difficulty for me is that we don't have history — we've started April 1 — and the final information would possibly only be available by the end of this fiscal year, which is March 31 in our case.
Senator Meredith: Even preliminary reports, whatever you can supply would be great.
Mr. Smith: Certainly. Yes, sir.
Senator Dyck: While I was listening to your answers, it seemed to me that you were saying the database of assets — the assets that the First Nation has with respect to the 11 types of major public buildings listed on page 4 of your document — is critically important to determine the amount of investment that they receive for operation and maintenance, and for health and safety issues.
Do we have any idea of what the value would be in terms of assets with respect to homes on a reserve? Surely the homes themselves represent a major asset to the First Nation. If that's not included in the database, then the amount of funds they get will not capture the value of those homes, and maybe they don't even get the funds for fire protection or for operation and maintenance.
Mr. Leclair: Senator, I will have to get back to you to see what that number could be.
Senator Dyck: Mr. Carisse, would you know the answer to that, since you have many years of experience within the department?
Karl Carisse, Senior Director, Innovation and Major Policy Transformation Directorate, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada: Being self-reported from communities in our asset base, we say there are about 106,000 homes out there. So we would have to do a calculation for an estimate of how much that would be. It's a bit different with housing. It's not operations and maintenance contributions that go to a community for a certain asset, but the communities receive — based on the number of people and the remoteness — a certain amount for their housing and to take care of their housing stock.
For those communities, it is up to the chief and council to decide what to do with those funds, which includes fire inspections and fire protection for homes. They are a government and it is up to them to make those decisions. If there are issues in the community with regard to fire protection that do come up — health and safety; mould as has come up in the past — it resides in the chief and council to make the decision on what to do with the funds they are provided.
Senator Dyck: When it comes to decisions with regard to how much funds are provided for these services for homes, how is that decision made? Do First Nations in general think the amount of funding is adequate?
Mr. Carisse: That decision was made a number of years ago, and the formula has not changed. Still, to this day it's on average about $150 million that goes out from the department. It is about the same from CMHC for their programs. As well, there is the $125 million from the social program for shelter assistance from the department.
Is there a need? Yes. You have heard from witnesses here that the need for housing on reserve is great. We still don't have an exact number of what that need is, but we know it is in the thousands of units. The department does not provide 100 per cent of the costs of housing, so it is up to chief and council to do that, but there are some tools out there to help the community. We know there are even some financial institutions now working directly with certain communities so they can do housing without the need of any ministerial loan guarantee. The bulk is still with CMHC for their section 95 housing and the contributions provided from the department to address their needs.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: My colleague just asked about the responsibility of the chief and council. I don't like that idea for various reasons. Who would a person complain to if their home is mould-infested and they can't get anywhere with the complaint? Do they come to you? Are they stuck with talking to the chief and council year after year saying, ``My house is full of mould''?
Mr. Carisse: The situation now is, if it's social housing in the community, it does belong to chief and council. That being said, the groups out there — I believe you have heard from John Kiedrowski from the First Nations National Building Officers Association — are there to help out. They do some training, capacity building. CMHC has capacity, and Health Canada is out there trying to help with mould remediation.
It's not the exact answer you'd like to hear, but the funds are provided to community and it is up to chief and council. Although there is a great need for new units, they get a contribution. So, if there is mould in the community, they can use that for mould remediation. There are tools and capacity so they can ask for help to do that at this point.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The point I am trying to make is that chief and council will not listen to these community members. Is there any resource or whatever they could go to for their problems?
Mr. Carisse: Unfortunately, I can't answer that question. It's the chiefs that come up here, like you had last week, and those questions would be better asked of them. We all know there are many priorities in the community, but I can't speak for the chiefs.
The Chair: Colleagues, in closing I would like to thank the witnesses for returning. I believe this session has shown you how very important this committee considers your work, and I know the committee wishes you well in the new responsibilities that have been taken on. Thank you to the witnesses.
I'm going to adjourn the meeting, but would ask members of steering to stay behind with staff.
(The committee adjourned.)