Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 8 - Evidence - September 15, 2014 (Afternoon)
THUNDER BAY, Monday, September 15, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 2:07 p.m. to continue its study on challenges relating to First Nations infrastructure on reserves.
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this resumed session of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples.
To those of you who have come here expecting us to start early, our apologies. We had some very compelling testimony this morning and we ran a bit late, so thank you for your patience in waiting for us this afternoon.
In this study on housing and infrastructure in First Nations communities, we are pleased to be hearing from our third panel of witnesses which is made up of two individuals, Chief Alex McDougall, representing Wasagamack First Nation; and Dr. Bryan Poulin, Associate Professor, Lakehead University.
Perhaps we could start with Chief McDougall, followed by Dr. Poulin. The short presentations will be followed by questions from senators. If I could ask the speakers, please, get closer to the microphone and hold the button on the bottom down while speaking, as I am doing. To stop just let it go. The button has to be held down.
I would like to quickly ask the committee on a matter of housekeeping. We received a brief from the Wasagamack First Nations in English only. Is it agreed that we consider the brief on that basis?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
Chief McDougall, welcome.
Alex McDougall, Chief, Wasagamack First Nation:
[Chief McDougall spoke in his Native language.]
I would like to thank the chair and the members of the Senate for the opportunity to present.
When the northern Chiefs of Manitoba and the Island Lake First Nations —Wasagamack, St. Theresa Point, Garden Hill and Red Sucker Lake — launched our Clean Running Water campaign in the Parliamentary Press Gallery on December 15, 2010, nearly 1,000 homes within the 30 northern Manitoba First Nations still had no access to clean running water. Many of these homes in our communities had no indoor plumbing of any kind. At that time, Island Lake First Nations had about 810 homes that were not connected to running water and wastewater systems.
In November 2011, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, AANDC, committed to work with the four Island Lake First Nations in conjunction with the Island Lake Tribal Council and the Province of Manitoba to continue the implementation of the Island Lake First Nations Water and Wastewater Capital Projects which had been initiated earlier. These further activities were to install water cisterns and wastewater holding tanks pending the connection of homes to the existing community piped systems and to retrofit homes by installing indoor plumbing where necessary.
Eight hundred and ten homes, or 55 per cent of the total of 1,461 housing units in the Island Lake First Nations, are involved in the current phase of the Island Lake Water and Wastewater Capital Project. The total project cost is $37,459,000 of which the 48.5 per cent in labour cost is being paid by the four Island Lake First Nations from band- based capital funds.
The Island Lake First Nations are pleased that Budget 2014 commits $324.4 million over the next two years toward the First Nations Water and Wastewater Action Plan and that this commitment includes making investments to bring clean running water into more homes in the Island Lake and other First Nations in northern Manitoba.
The additional investment in water and wastewater treatment systems will enhance the health and well-being of everyone living in these First Nations. The additional investments, through the First Nations Water and Wastewater Action Plan, are also expected to result in positive economic impacts through retrofitting and construction projects in the communities.
On February 17, 2014, the Island Lake First Nations met with Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, Bernard Valcourt — and there is a package there of the issues that were presented to the minister — and requested that AANDC provide a contribution of 100 per cent of the $18,192,000 in the labour costs of the Island Lake Water and Wastewater Action Plan in order for the four Island Lake First Nations to reinvest these band-based capital funds in other urgent community priorities, including housing.
The Island Lake First Nations also requested that the minister agree to a plan and a schedule to phase out water cisterns and wastewater holding tank systems by AANDC making further investments in community water and wastewater lines that will connect all homes to water and wastewater treatment systems.
The bottom line is that the retrofitting of 810 homes in the four Island Lake First Nations is presently estimated to cost a total of $37,459,000 over the five years of the project, ending March 31, 2017. Over the life of the five-year project and under the current project arrangements, the Island Lake First Nations will be paying 48.5 per cent of the total project costs in the form of $18,192,000 in labour costs. AANDC will be paying 51.5 per cent of the total project costs, or about $19,267,000 in the form of materials, supplies and non-labour management and administrative costs.
Of the 810 homes to be retrofitted over the five-year project, 318, or 39.2 per cent of the homes without running water are expected to have been retrofitted by the end of the first two years of the project as of March 31, 2014. This means that 492 homes, or 60.7 per cent of the homes without running water, still remain to be retrofitted over the next three years of the project, ending March 31, 2017.
It should be noted that all of the 810 houses being retrofitted will be using water storage tanks and wastewater holding tanks. I will ask that you refer to the attached pictures for illustration. None of the monies being expended as part of the five-year project are to connect homes to the piped community water system or to extend the piped water system to connect some or all of these 810 homes.
It should also be noted that there is at present no schedule from AANDC to contribute the funding necessary to connect homes in the Island Lake First Nations to the community piped water system. As well, it should be noted that the current facilities are in dire need of upgrades to accommodate the growing population. First Nations are expected to maintain the current facilities with its limited and capped band-based funding.
Each of the Island Lake First Nations requested an update from the minister and his officials as to the next cycle or phase for extensions of and connections to the existing community piped water systems. We have yet to receive a response from the minister or regional officials as to when the 810 homes that are presently being connected to cisterns, as well as the other homes already being served by cisterns and holding tanks and water trucks, will be connected to the community piped water system.
In addition, neither the minister nor AANDC regional officials have yet provided any response to our request that Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada contribute 100 per cent of the $37,459,000 cost of the Updated Multi-Year Action Plan of the Island Lake First Nations Water and Wastewater Capital Projects, including the $18,192,000 in labour costs now being paid with funds allocated from the limited and capped band-based capital of our First Nations. The regional envelope was capped in 1995.
Wasagamack is under a severe and growing housing crisis. The current housing stock is overcrowded and steadily deteriorating. In 2010, there were 254 houses in the community, including those set aside for teachers and nurses residing in the community. Of those 254, in 2010, 64 needed minor renovations, 97 needed major renovations and 12 were condemned. Again, we have attached photos for your reference. The backlog in housing was 211 in 2010 and this number has now risen to 240.
Wasagamack is an extremely remote First Nation, accessible only by boat, helicopter and ice road, when weather permits. There is no airport in the community or accessiblity by land. All food and supplies are trucked in by ice roads or flown in to the neighbouring communities and hauled in by boat or helicopter. As you can imagine, the costs are very high. Without adequate funding, Wasagamack cannot meet the needs of its over 2,000 members. Ninety-two per cent of our members reside on reserve and in 2010, over 77 per cent of the population was under 35 years of age.
The direct correlations between healthy living and proper housing and infrastructure are all well known. People in Wasagamack are living in conditions that place them at high risk for illnesses. We have members who are unable to move back home from the city due to the housing conditions in the community. The First Nation continues to receive letters from doctors, nurses and members seeking adequate housing and/or maintenance. The First Nation is not financially equipped to address and comply with these requests. Based on the National Occupancy Standard requirements, in 2010, Wasagamack had 275 homeless people.
The current method of addressing housing backlogs is bringing in more homes under the CMHC program. This is supporting or spawning dependency. Currently, CMHC homes are provided to social assistance recipients as they qualify for shelter allowance and, as such, with the CMHC program, we see the community continuing to accumulate debt and members who have no incentive to upgrade their skills.
These facts are representative of the challenges we face relating to bringing core infrastructure and addressing the housing crisis in our community. The central solution here is clearly increased investment by Canada and the Province of Manitoba. Additional investment from Canada and Manitoba to bring clean running water into our homes will enable the Island Lake First Nations to reinvest our limited and capped band-based capital funds in other urgent community priorities, including housing.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you.
Dr. Poulin?
Bryan Poulin, Associate Professor, Lakehead University, as an individual: Thank you for this opportunity to present on very short notice. I commend the chair and committee; I believe this is a great work, this fact-finding mission. I commend you for the time and the effort that is going into it.
Could I just hand out a piece of paper so I can keep this extremely short? In that way, I can just read from it and talk to it, and I will be finished in less than five minutes.
The Chair: Is that agreeable to the committee? Yes. Please, go ahead.
Mr. Poulin: If there are not enough copies, there are only 10 or 11 copies, you could share.
This is an email to my colleagues, Dr. Tony Gillies who is the Assistant Dean of the Faculty of Engineering at Lakehead University and formerly the Chair of Civil Engineering. I am a civil engineer. I used to be a consultant and now am an Associate Professor at Lakehead University in the Faculty of Business.
All of the work that we have done here has been as volunteers. We do it in parallel with our job. It's totally volunteer. We do it because of the need and we have input from local designers, including FORM Architecture and Engineering that has contributed to our work and, most especially, owe credit to the Economic Development and Innovation Office at Lakehead University and our students. Our students are really doing all the labour and they get credit in their degree programs.
I found out about this meeting yesterday from the news. I thought I would attend since we are doing something that is complementary to what Chief Alex McDougall is doing. He is identifying the problems and we are trying to come to some form of solutions. We believe the solutions cannot be done by research alone. The solutions will happen when the assembly of houses is done by First Nations communities and communicating their improvements to us for further monitoring and testing.
That's why we are suggesting that we be a Centre of Excellence for Housing in the North, that in Manitoba there be a comparable one. There are centres across the country, including the Centre for Building Science at the University of Toronto, where you will see the idea that we have carried forward. You see the report by our students. It's one of a series of reports. That's the latest one. That report is on two test huts. We have a 780 square-foot test module and the architect was asked what he thought of it. He said, "This is better than any other housing that I have ever seen," and he also said, "You have no basis of comparison." So we did two little test huts. One is to code, Canada's building code, and the other one is experimental.
I have three points here. That's the review of the work we have done. You could read it. Dr. Tony Gillies would be more than happy to field any questions that you have on the technical part. I operate as the project manager of the initiative. We do share some civil engineering ideas and structural and other improvements.
The idea is really simple. This came from Dr. John Timusk way back in the 1980s, and the National Research Council is familiar with the idea. What we have done is we have upgraded it and we have added to it. It brings fresh air into the house and, therefore, it's healthy living and it's also energy efficient. Now, there are other ways to do this, but we don't know of a better one at this point.
That's basically the work that we have done at LU.
The second point I have mentioned already, which is the Centre for Northern Housing here in Thunder Bay, one that takes account of our extreme winters and our wonderful sunny weather, as you have experienced today. We are actually the third sunniest area in Canada, but you would never know it recently.
Then we want to be part of a network of centres. That's basically it.
The only other thing, the idea came from discussions with Dr. Dimos Polyzois of the University of Manitoba who is doing this work for the NSERC. On this research-funded project, he is looking at mould counts and he finds in a northern community only one hour outside Winnipeg that the mould counts are up to 200 per cent more than allowed by the building code. The houses are unhealthy. He said that the children aren't even healthy enough to go to school, if they had schools. The children are sick before they get there. So housing is not only affecting the living standards, it's affecting their future opportunities because they are too sick to go to school and learn. That's why we do this work voluntarily.
We think that, rather than a prescription, we need a performance-based building code that is for the North because of the unique problems that the North faces. The loads, as Chief Alex said, are much higher than normal loads. You have more people living in the housing and the moisture content is elevated. Therefore, we need to have more fresh air come in than would be normally required. Then, in different seasons, there is mould in the environment. We don't want to go into this except to say that, if we had these centres and an arms-length, independent professional building Housing authority, we could do a lot to come up with unique solutions for unique conditions.
That's my presentation.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Colleagues, we have had presentations in two different areas here, although they are related. I invite you to pose your questions to either presenter.
But maybe I can just ask Dr. Poulin, this concept of a centre of excellence, that's an existing program, am I right, that you are referring to, that you recommend be targeted to housing?
Mr. Poulin: That's one we will be applying to once we make the findings known in our journals. We are now preparing to put what we found out to the public and then we will be applying for a centre of excellence here. Dimos Polyzois of the University of Manitoba would like to work in parallel with us so we would have a centre in Manitoba and a centre here, and we would work together on unique problems in northwestern Ontario and northern Manitoba, where Chief Alex is from.
The Chair: The government authority for the centre of excellence is under which ministry?
Mr. Poulin: Centres of excellence can come under the federal government or a provincial government. Centres of excellence are established throughout the country and there are various reasons for each. We have a centre of excellence for health and ageing in the North, and it would be parallel to that, but with a different purpose to ours, of course.
The Chair: Yes, I think that's the Ministry of Industry.
Senator Dyck: Professor Poulin, you were saying that kids were too sick to go to school. Has the work that you have done so far looked at different construction models? It sounds like they might be based on steel. Have you been comparing homes that are built with different materials versus the way they are built now, to see if there is a better way of constructing a home in northern Ontario that would alleviate the problem of mould contamination?
Mr. Poulin: Yes, there are. Thank you for the question.
It's not the materials so much. It's the order of the assembly, making sure they do their job the way they are supposed to. Right now, building codes are basically rule of thumb. It's based on experience. It's not based on science. So this approach is one of the first science ones. This is why we want it performance-based.
Now, we can use wood or we can use steel, it doesn't matter. We use all ready-available materials. There is nothing new here except the order of assembly and the care of the assembly.
I think I have to qualify that. It's Professor Polyzois that you want to talk to with regard to the children. He has done the interviews and I take the information from him. I actually don't have it. He is coming out with a report presently.
Senator Dyck: Chief McDougall, you gave us quite an impactful package of information here. When you were talking about the large number of homes that need to be looked at as soon as possible and that there was a plan. Somewhere it says by the end of March 2014, there was supposed to be 318 homes that had been retrofitted. Has that happened? It is on page 2 of your report.
Mr. McDougall: Yes, it has. We are actually into our third year now of retrofits.
Senator Dyck: When these homes are retrofitted, they are now just being hooked up to, essentially a temporary solution, a system of cisterns. What you are looking for is a commitment to connect them up to the proper wastewater management system. Is that what you are looking for?
Mr. McDougall: Yes. It's to have a commitment for a more permanent plan. Right now, the construction or the retrofits of the homes are temporary. We have attached pictures that illustrate shelters that house the cisterns for the water. They are temporary. We do have water treatment plants in the community, and only those facilities that are federally-maintained were hooked up to the water treatment plant. If you are fortunate enough that your house was along that route, they piped you in.
Senator Dyck: On the first page of your report, you were talking about Budget 2014 and the money that was committed toward wastewater action. You say this commitment includes the homes in Island Lake and other First Nations. Is that actually in the budget or is that more of a commitment made by an agreement with Island Lake?
Mr. McDougall: For the retrofit, yes. That's the comprehensive figures that you see there, to include the other communities that are associated or affiliated to the Island Lake region.
Senator Dyck: So in the budget itself, it's actually named, there is a line that says X dollars toward retrofitting Island Lake First Nation.
Mr. McDougall: That's correct. Again, in your package are detailed data that explains how many units go to each community, how many dollars were committed or used by each community, but the numbers that I have presented to you are the total of what has been spent to date. The real issue there, and what we are trying to outline to the Senate here is that the First Nations had to pay out of their already limited BBC. Here, we understood that Canada was to make a commitment to the Island Lake First Nations, saying, "Yes, we are going to put running water into these homes and this is how much money we are putting in." when, in fact, they are only putting in half of the money, which means we have to contribute from our band-based funds. Yet, there are other issues, social issues, that affect our communities and we can't address those. I have tried to emphasize that in my presentation, that our BBC funds have been capped since 1995. While our population continues to grow, the demand on these dollars of band-based capital is greater.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much for being here.
Chief McDougall, could you give me more background on the communities of Island Lake? There is more than one community. Are they very spread out or are the communities close? I don't have a good picture in my mind of how the community is set up, both geographically and in terms of the density of the population. Is there a centre, and how are they hooked together in terms of other infrastructure, roads, power, as well as the new water system?
Mr. McDougall: I can try.
The population is concentrated on Island Lake. We are in the northeast of the province. We are on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. All of the communities that are in the area are within 5 miles to roughly 20 miles, which is the farthest community. The largest community in the area is Garden Hill having a population of over 4,000 people, I will say. The smallest is Red Sucker Lake. They have just under 1,000 people in that community.
One of the services in the communities is hydro — the Kelsey line runs through the communities. All are dependent on the time of the season for transportation. As I indicated, we are an isolated community. We are a fly-in. We only have a window of transporting essential goods anywhere between four weeks to five weeks, depending on the winter.
I think we have all heard about the weather, global warming and so forth, and the impacts that it is having. We see it every year. We see the impacts of global warming in our communities. Again, they do contribute to the hardship of the region in trying to bring in essentials. This is groceries, our gas and our diesel, always in a period of four to five weeks. We don't have the luxury of calling a supplier and saying, "Hey, we need so many thousands litres of gas, can you deliver it tomorrow." If we do run out of gas we fly it in and the costs to the community are that much higher.
I hope I have answered your question.
Senator Raine: I didn't realize that there was such a large population. How many different communities do you have as part of Island Lake?
Mr. McDougall: There are four communities. I estimate that we have in the four communities in Island Lake a total population in excess of 10,000 people. There are three airports. We happen to be the one community that doesn't have an airport, Wasagamack. So we have to rely on neighbouring communities to access air transportation. The closest one is six miles away. That's St. Theresa Point.
We have no hospital in Island Lake to service the some 10,000 people. If you look at any other population in Manitoba or Ontario, you won't find a situation where there are 10,000 people and you don't have the appropriate health support, transportation support and education support.
Senator Raine: Do you have a high school in the area?
Mr. McDougall: We have a school housing early years, middle years and high school. Our nominal roll last year was 460 students, I believe, and that is just for Wasagamack.
Senator Raine: Each of the communities has its school.
Mr. McDougall: Each community has its own school. They administer their own school. They have their own nominal roll count and get their own funding. Right now, there is no regional effort to form a district school or anything like that to manage the school population.
Senator Raine: But the four communities are joined together in an administrative group in terms of infrastructure, the water treatment, et cetera?
Mr. McDougall: For the retrofit, yes. That's under the Island Lake Tribal Council.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much.
The Chair: I want to follow up on Senator Greene Raine's question about road access and the narrow window you have with the winter road. Aboriginal Affairs gives you core funding or some kind of formula funding. Do they take into account the transportation barriers that you have in the funding formula?
Mr. McDougall: They do. They have a formula that they use, but it's not reflective of the needs that are there and that are present to meet the community transportation requirements. That, again, is an issue that was raised with Minister Valcourt. There is a remote and isolation index the department uses to determine the level of funding that the community receives. The roads, depending on where they are going, how they get into the community, the travel distance, are under regulations that are governed by the industry and add to those costs of transporting. We would have to go into our BBC to try and pay for those additional costs.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Sibbeston: I am curious with respect to the approach you took in dealing with the minister and Aboriginal Affairs. In trying to deal with the matter of clean water and so forth, did you prepare a proposal and then present it to the minister? Is that how you got negotiations going with the minister and the government?
Mr. McDougall: Yes. In the initial submission of access to clean water, a proposal was submitted. This was a subsequent announcement that Canada made in Winnipeg and we were invited to address the minister. Again, he did ask for proposals on how some of these issues could be addressed. I am hoping that at the end of this question period, I could maybe elaborate on that a little bit.
Senator Sibbeston: Mr. Chair, maybe this does say something about the approach that First Nations should take in dealing with the government. Basically, do all the necessary legwork, put a proposal together and then approach the government to fund it.
In this case, you are funding a substantial part of it. Was the success of the government approving it dependent on you putting a lot of your own money into it?
Mr. McDougall: Yes. When the water and sewer retrofit initiative was announced, there was a question of communities contributing from their BBC. Wasagamack was the one community that voiced opposition to that. The tactic that the government used at the regional level was to say, "Okay, we will go to one community and say if you do not give in to that condition, you will not get your water and sewer. They went to one, two, three and who did they see last? Wasagamack. They said, "Well, all the other communities that are affiliated with the Island Lake Tribal Council have agreed to do that." So we had no choice. If we wanted to have some improvements in our water and sewer program, that's what we had to do.
That's just one example. We have to contribute to the winter roads from our BBC again. There are numerous examples of where the community has to contribute from their band-based funding and support initiatives that are being announced by Canada.
Senator Sibbeston: The monies that you have to put in, is that from band monies that come from the government or is that monies that the band makes as a business?
Mr. McDougall: Those are federal government funds, yes.
Senator Sibbeston: To comment on that, while it looks and sounds good that the band is contributing some money toward a project, in doing that, you are really, limiting other areas that need money, such as schools, economic development, social services perhaps. Then you have had to make some decisions to actually cut some of these programs so that money can be made available for this project.
Mr. McDougall: That's correct. This is my opinion. From the government side, I think this was all esthetics, appearance, that, yes, they have contributed 100 per cent of the costs when, in fact, the communities are contributing 48.5 per cent of the costs through their band-based capital. They are not given the ability to plan within their band- based capital to try and meet priorities in their communities.
We have made mention that there is a chronic, chronic housing backlog in all of our communities, not just Wasagamack. This is straight across Canada. There are some serious issues as to how to address that. We have looked at various ways of bringing in partners, new and innovative ideas, and it always comes down to policy: "You can't do that." We go and mill our own lumber: "You have to grade and stamp it now; if it doesn't pass, we can't support you."
Senator Sibbeston: Can you comment on what effect this has had on your other programs because you have had to probably cut into these other programs. Has there been a real negative definite adverse effect on other programs you provide to the community or have you done it in such a way that it's hardly noticeable?
Mr. McDougall: I don't know where to start with that question.
There are social impacts that we see and live with day in and day out. In trying to support our community the department has labelled us as "giving in to peer pressure." We have First Nations communities that are at some level of intervention in trying to address these issues, and we are told that we are not managing our money properly.
I have seen personally the impacts; substance abuse, marriage breakups and suicides. It's hard. It's hard. I don't know how many people I have lost in my community, trying to help and not being able to help. It's so unnecessary. I think that's the human part of it. Unfortunately, you don't see that, but we do.
Senator Tannas: Chief McDougall, thank you for being here and sharing your views and your experience.
The $37 million to do 800 houses would equate to $40,000 a house. I'm wondering why tanks instead of drilled wells and septic systems. I don't know if you were there when all this got made and the engineers made these decisions, but it just seems that it couldn't have been much more to make it self-contained.
The second part of the question is the running costs from here on in of trucking water in and sewage out every house. Was there any accommodation made for additional operating funds for the next however many years that you have got this temporary solution?
Could you just maybe give us some colour around that?
Mr. McDougall: There was a plan from the department to bring in piped water and sewer to the communities. I think that's why we do have water treatment plants in our communities, and they went only as far as connecting the federal facilities that are in the communities. That's how it was designed. They were supposed to come around with the next phase of piping in homes to that system. With the announcement of this retrofit, that plan sort of got lost in the department. We have made inquiries to the regional office about the next phases of that plan and not had any response to it other than that this is what we are doing now.
There are definitely O&M costs, additional O&M costs long term. Again, there are formulas for funding O&M by the department. Right now, a First Nation community only receives 20 per cent of its operation and maintenance costs and the community is left to try and find the other 80 per cent to pay for its electricity, upkeep of the homes. Again, that just contributes to the condition of these communities. There is no parity in funding and there is no parity in support for First Nations anywhere.
How can we expect to address housing when our First Nations are at the highest level of intervention? We are in third party intervention. There are great things being talked about and great ideas being discussed as to how we can move forward without having First Nations involved, being a partner in those processes, and having the opportunity to improve the economic situation by creating our own-source revenue. You look at the government now, there are cuts to funding everywhere. They make them small enough that you don't feel it, but by the end of the year or two years down the road, you have lost a program.
I guess that's more of a comprehensive observation that I have.
Senator Tannas: If 20 per cent is being provided and 80 per cent you have to find,, could you give us some sense of is there any own-source revenue coming into for the four communities or into the coffers of the First Nations government from any other source other than federal government?
Second, what would be the employment or unemployment rate in the communities at the moment?
Mr. McDougall: I can speak for my community. The unemployment rate, I would estimate to be anywhere between 85 to 90 per cent. As far as plans for generating own-source revenue, our leadership, with the support of the community, are looking at creating businesses in the community. The Economic Development Corporation would have subsidiaries operating under it to try and generate employment opportunities and own-source revenue, and hopefully, be able to assist in alleviating some of the expenses to meet the needs of the community.
Senator Tannas: Thank you, sir.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: All morning I have been hearing about CMHC housing. It seems to be involved in all or most First Nations communities. Do you think it's good for the First Nations to have the CMHC? In your document here, it says that it's provided, but then there is a deficit and all that. So is it good or bad?
Mr. McDougall: I will try and explain it this way.
The CMHC program that we have in our community provides for financing of construction of homes. We would have to pay a mortgage and how we pay down the mortgage is through the shelter allowance for welfare recipients.
The reason we have described it the way we have in my notes is that there is no incentive for somebody to go out and get their skills upgraded because they are worried that they will lose their shelter allowance and their home. That just creates dependency on that system.
The effect of it is at two levels. There is the homeowner who is a welfare recipient relying on shelter allowance to pay for that house. The First Nation then takes that money and pays CMHC for the mortgage. Debt is incurred by the First Nation and that adds to the overall financial position of the First Nation. In some cases, it may even result in having the department impose its highest level of intervention, and that is third party which is what Wasagamack is in right now.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The homes pictured in your presentation, are these homes funded by Aboriginal Affairs to be completed, or is this a completed house in your community?
Mr. McDougall: That is a house that we are building for a couple that live in another unit for which there is also a picture. They have been living there for five years. There is no floor in it. They have a mud floor. We are trying to build this couple a home so that they are not living in that house this winter and, hopefully, it will be a little more comfortable and warmer. We are using whatever surplus materials that we can find within the community to build that. It's small; it's not a big house.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The question I'm concerned with is how much does Aboriginal Affairs allow for a First Nations community to build one house?
Mr. McDougall: Forty per cent of the total cost. The other 60 per cent comes from CMHC or other sources.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: You mentioned temporary water systems. Do they freeze in the winter time?
Mr. McDougall: Yes, they do.
Senator Dyck: I want to follow up on the question about CMHC housing. I'm wondering what percentage of the houses on your reserve are section 95 houses, affordable housing. Would they constitute the majority of your homes?
Mr. McDougall: No. We have only had two intakes of the program. We have stopped it. We don't use it anymore because of the issues that we are having with the community incurring debt which has an effect on our overall position. We are working and trying to get out of third party and into a co-management arrangement where there is some flexibility to identify appropriate funding for community needs.
Senator Dyck: As a follow-up to that, when you are under third party management, do you not also have to pay out of your own band-based capital? Does that also get spent on third party management — to hire the people to come in, the financial control people? Do you also have to pay for them to come in? Does that come out of your resources?
Mr. McDougall: Yes, it does. The department assigns an agent on our behalf to act as a third party. We have no choice on who that agent is. The department pays out of our revenues for that service.
Senator Dyck: It's a vicious cycle. You may want to think about this and answer later, but how do you stop this? I think one of your suggestions was you are not getting enough money in the first place. What else could be done? It's like water going down the drain. How do you stop it?
Mr. McDougall: The suggestion we have had has to do with policy and trying to change policy. For a First Nation that is in third party, the policy reads that any community making an effort to try to accumulate a surplus for the purpose of dealing with debt is not allowed. If you do accumulate a surplus, they make a recovery. They are essentially saying to me, "You keep your indebtedness and we will take the surplus money away from you." That's our reality in the First Nations in dealing with Indian Affairs.
There needs to be some change in policy. If there is a sincere effort by a First Nation to deal with its debt and accumulate a surpluse or have unexpended funds as they call it, they have to change that policy. That policy should enable a First Nation to deal with old debt. Otherwise, you are in a perpetual remedial management plan and you will never ever get out of debt.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: I have a supplementary question. You are in third party management and the debt is caused by a lack of funds. You then have to pay for extra housing and stuff like that which put you in a third party situation in the first place?
Mr. McDougall: That's one of the factors, yes.
Senator Moore: Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. I just want to follow up on my colleague's question.
Chief McDougall, first of all, is it just your band that is in third party management or is it all four in Island Lake? Is it just your band?
Mr. McDougall: I don't know which level of intervention the other communities are at, but I imagine they are at some level of intervention, whether it's co-management, enhanced co-management, third party or completely autonomous in their administration of programs.
Senator Moore: So if you received this $18,192,000 which was taken out of your band-based capital, would you be in third party management?
Mr. McDougall: Do you want to repeat, please?
Senator Moore: You asked for this almost $18.2 million which has been taken out of your band-based capital. You had to put that money up front to cover this temporary hookup to the water system, right? Had you not had to spend that money on that, would you now be in third party management?
Mr. McDougall: I would think that we would still be under third party. We would have to go to the department for their approval and support to use band-based capital for debt retirement. So even if we wanted to use it, we would have to ask if we could use it.
Senator Moore: I'm not clear on some of the numbers. Could you just run through the populations, please, of the four First Nations and the housing stock in each. Do you know those numbers, the breakdown, chief?
Mr. McDougall: Not off the top of my head. I was just giving ballpark numbers for the population and the units per community to be retrofitted. The data and the numbers are in your package if you would like to refer to that.
Senator Moore: Can you just run through the population, the approximate numbers that you have? I know you said there was a total of nearly 10,000 people. What was the breakdown between the four First Nations?
Mr. McDougall: Did I give a breakdown? I estimated —
Senator Moore: You said about 10,000 people. I didn't know what the breakdown was in your First Nation and the other three.
Mr. McDougall: I think I said about 4,000-plus in Garden Hill; somewhere around 3,500 in St. Theresa Point. Red Sucker Lake is the smallest community with a population of roughly 1,000 people, and Wasagamack has 2,000.
Senator Moore: Thanks.
Following up on Senator Sibbeston's questions with regard to impact, substance abuse, marriage breakups, suicides; have these impacts been happening over a long period of time? Have you been tracking this as the leader of the community? How long have you been chief?
Mr. McDougall: Four years.
Senator Moore: You have been obviously on top of this and watching what's going on in your community. Is it getting worse, chief, or is it lessening? Is there hope to turn this back?
Mr. McDougall: I think it's getting worse. That's why it's so hard for me. I almost hesitate to count how many people I have lost during my tenure in office, but it's in the double digits.
Senator Moore: Really? From suicide?
Mr. McDougall: Suicides and other mortalities. It's disheartening when the community that you represent comes to you for help and you are not able to respond, you can't do anything.
The Chair: I would like to thank both presenters. This is a very impressive package from Dr. Poulin and we thank you for that. There is a lot more research we will be able to do from the references you have given us.
Chief McDougall, thank you for the presentation you put together.
I wonder if I could specifically ask you, these pictures are very dramatic; can we have your permission to consider using some of those pictures in our report?
Mr. McDougall: Yes, you have my permission.
Senator Raine: Could you just go through the pictures and tell us exactly what they are from, because I was a little confused. I thought one was a holding tank or a cistern.
Mr. McDougall: The first picture is the new home that we are currently constructing for the couple who lives in the home pictured on the following page. They are right next to each other. That's the front part of the home. Then the shelter in front of this house is where the water tank sits. It's separate from the bungalow and there is a line that is trenched into the house for accessing water. The last picture is just another picture of the one unit that we are currently constructing for the family.
The Chair: Closing comment, Dr. Poulin?
Mr. Poulin: I think from hearing the chief and hearing the witnesses in the session before, it's clear to me, in any case, that a comprehensive solution needs to happen. Universities are uniquely positioned to respond in terms of policy suggestions and improvements to carry out social science as well as applied science research. I would invite you to consider universities to be working in partnership. They are much closer to the community than the federal government, with all of its good intentions.
We would be most happy to be partnering with any levels of government and the communities to work out a viable long-term solution so we don't get these short-term solutions. When a government program is announced, we have to use the technology and what we have at hand and that is not the best. The best is continuous improvement and long- term investment in thinking of better ways, working with our partners, our First Nations and our various levels of government. That's the only viable long-term solution, in my mind.
The Chair: With that, I would like to very much again thank the witnesses. I take it that you would be willing to let us follow up if we have further questions. We will excuse you.
We are running a little bit behind. I thank the forthcoming witnesses for their patience. Our schedule has been a little bit fluid.
We are still expecting two other witnesses, but I would like to hear from Attawapiskat right away. If the other witnesses on this panel arrive, we will see if we can squeeze them in.
Colleagues, from the Attawapiskat First Nation, I would like to welcome Chief Theresa Spence; Wayne Turner, Executive Director; Monique Sutherland, Housing Manager; and Katherine Hensel, Legal Counsel.
I think you have been watching our proceedings. You need to hold the button down to be on the record. So as long as you are speaking, hold the button down. When you are finished, let the button go.
I take it, Chief Spence, you have a presentation, and there would be, undoubtedly, questions from senators afterward. Please proceed.
Theresa Spence, Chief, Attawapiskat First Nation: First of all, I want to thank you for the invitation for us to speak on the challenges and the current situation for our community of Attawapiskat.
The Attawapiskat First Nation is on the west coast of James Bay. We have about 1,900 members on reserve and approximately 1,500 living off reserve. Many people want to come back home, but the challenge is they don't have a home to come home to, so they are off reserve. The lack of housing also presents challenges in recruiting and retaining trained local staff for the provision of community services.
The leadership called a state of emergency in December 2011, and previously in 2010 and again last year because of the large membership living in unsafe housing, in tents and shacks as the winter approaches. It's really a challenge that we face almost every year.
Our community continues to face a critical housing shortage until this day. Things are not getting better despite recent efforts to increase our housing stock. We have reached out to the regional office of AANDC on the situation, and we want to work collectively to have a solution on this matter, but we still face many challenges, which I'm prepared to discuss with you today.
Again, thank you for giving us the opportunity to speak with you. I will briefly outline the things that we are still facing.
Our current housing in Attawapiskat, we have 329 units on the reserve, and 73 require immediate replacement — not repair, replacement — and have been condemned, and we have people still living in them. There are approximately 193 that require major repairs, and there are 63 adequate ones. These include 25 modular homes that we obtained in 2012.
Fewer than one in five of our members living on reserve are safe and adequately housed in units that meet the minimal requirements of our current building codes, and there are 73 homes that are still condemned, and people are still living in them. Most of our people are living in overcrowded housing, in substandard homes, contaminated by mould and sewage.
Overcrowding has a significant impact on every area of our residents' lives. They suffer from infectious disease, family conflict, even violence and disruption of education and employment.
Children are suffering from infections — skin, respiratory, stomach. When they go to school, they cannot focus on school because they live in overcrowded housing. That's a major impact on our children, overcrowded housing. Yes, we have a new school, but they are still impacted from overcrowded homes. They witness family conflict and violence that is the natural result of families struggling to recover from the legacy of the residence schools while living in overcrowded, unsafe homes. Some have been removed from their homes, from their families and community because of unsafe housing.
A lot of families are losing their children through the Children's Aid because of the situation at home, and a lot of people are unable to provide foster homes because of the conditions of the homes. That's the biggest impact on our children when they want to work with the Children's Aid, Family Services. When we talk about custom care, this opportunity is closed.
So just a little history of Attawapiskat to begin: It was settled in the 1950s with the establishment of the Hudson Bay and Roman Catholic Mission. Most of our families began living in a village on a reserve in the 1960s. Most of our housing stock dates from the 1970s and 1980s.
The concept of the new house is different from the 1960s. Very basic units were built by the Department of Indian Affairs that would not come anywhere near meeting the current building codes or norms concerning housing and social conditions.
The houses that were built in the 1960s were very basic, really. There were only four walls a ceiling and a floor. There was no plumbing, no electrical or running water. It was just a house, a basic little house, more like a little shed. That was 1960, but we still have some like that in our area. Updating these units to meet modern code requirements was not only expensive, but often caused damage to the house and displaced at least one room of living space.
Like other communities, we lack specialized housing for our most vulnerable members. We need elders' residences. There are approximately 94 elders in our community who require their own units, but there are none right now.
We have special needs adults. They are homeless or they are living with their families in overcrowded housing. These special needs adults need a group home where they could enhance their living skills. Families with disabilities don't have accessible homes to accommodate their needs, so it's very hard when they are in wheelchairs. So those are some of the challenges we are still facing.
I'm sure you guys heard about CMHC housing, funding for housing from Canada. The First Nation receives approximately $591,000 every year from Canada for housing, which must cover housing policy, administration, renovations and repair and construction.
Because of materials, labour and transportation costs in this remote northern location, it costs approximately $250,000 to build one unit. Unfortunately, due to the state of repair of the First Nation's existing housing stock, for the last several years, most of the housing budget has been used for repair and renovations rather than constructing new houses, with the view to keeping as much of the existing housing stock as possible inhabitable.
There are no Canadian Tires or other stores in our community. The nearest one costs at least $1,200 to fly to it. Thus basic repairs are often uncompleted by householders due to the lack of ability to buy repair items.
A large part of the funding goes to maintaining and operating the East End Trailers, donated by DeBeers in 2001. Running that place is very costly. The funding is not provided by the government, and it's really taking up the funding that we need to utilize for other areas. These are the challenges that we face with the government. They don't provide the funding that we need to have temporary housing or emergency shelter.
For the funding infrastructure, the First Nation also receives $580,000 per year from Canada for minor capital costs. A portion of this amount from Canada is currently dedicated to debt services, as authorized by chief and council, with the result of very limited and minor capital improvements for the roads, sewer, and drainage infrastructure.
We also completed a Capital Planning Study that outlined our requirements for infrastructure improvements as well as our housing requirements. Details on the study have been filed with the Regional Affairs office at the AANDC, and we are waiting for resources to fulfill this plan which will tackle our housing backlog and identify capital infrastructure deficiencies. AANDC has not yet formally acknowledged the plan, so we are still waiting for them to respond.
The Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada must sign a guarantee for any CMHC financing for the construction of new houses. In 2013, the minister refused to provide this guarantee. As you know from having heard from other communities, CMHC is the one that really work with First Nations, but, again, it's also in the control of the Indian Affairs, and it's hard to approach other companies because we don't really have no control on this.
We have reviewed the findings of audit and are implementing their recommendations. Any recommendations from the audit, we do our best to comply with them, but there are challenges when we have to.
Recent additions to our housing, the modular homes in 2012, we received 22 when we called it an emergency, and these units went to the people who were living in tent frames and sheds, and most of these people had health challenges in their lives, such as diabetes, and the elders had recent heart surgery. There was also a family with a little baby. So this is why modular homes were provided.
Still, even with these 22 modular homes, our existing house stock, we are still addressing a critical housing shortage in our community. It's very challenging. I keep using that word "challenging" because it is a challenge.
In 2013, we received $2.2 million in special funding to construct new housing units. We only had eight units out of that $2.2 million because there are other costs. They are very high, especially for transportation. Transportation for a remote area is a killer. It's — I don't know — 50 to 60 per cent of our budget, and then the labour costs. These eight units are in the process of being constructed, but they will be able to house at least 60 members, and that's only eight families, and we still need a lot of housing to accommodate the housing list that we have.
It's viewed by Canada as economic development, but this money to sustain our community, 70 to 80 per cent, on average, goes to the regional contractors and suppliers. In this case, those houses were constructed in a suburb of Ottawa. It's always down south.
Hopefully, these units will be available by November. So it's for eight families, and it's, in total, approximately 60. That's how large a family is in our community. It's not one or two. It's more than five sometimes.
All the housing units are owned collectively by the Attawapiskat First Nation, for the benefit of our members.
There is a waiting list, at least 297 applicants. There are a lot of people living off-reserve. They would like to come home, but, again, there is no housing. There are families living with their parents, grandparents, and some of these homes are three to four generations. It could be more than 297 people waiting because some of them don't even bother coming to apply for housing because they know that it's going to be a long waiting list. So in other words, you kind of give up sometimes. But the housing list is really backlogged right now.
Homelessness: When you talk about people being homeless in our community, our people are not on the street. They are living with their families in overcrowded housing, and we have East End Trailers. That's where they are living right now. Even at the healing lodge, which is supposed to be for a program for addiction, but we are using it as a shelter. Again, it's not funded by Indian Affairs. I still call them Indian Affairs, and I apologize for that. So we are using our own resources to have this building in place for our people who need emergency shelters.
No one has been turned down by family. It's our way of accepting our loved ones. In the city, I know it's a different environment, so I'm just trying to make you guys see that picture.
Our council recently directed the establishment of a transitional housing committee which will eventually become a housing corporation because we want to separate it from the leadership because it's a lot of responsibility. Every day, people come to our office to see a housing manager for a house. Some of them even cry. They have tears coming. Sometimes, they go out, being upset and angry. We try to explain to them that we are doing our best to get housing, but it's a long process, and it requires a lot of time to get funding for it.
This housing committee will make recommendations on allocations of new homes and renovations, but it still goes to our chief and council for review and to ratify their recommendations. So we are trying to get this body to assist the leadership, because the way it is right now, it's every day that people come to my office.
There are obstacles in our efforts to increase housing. We lack the land, money and autonomy to address the housing shortage. We only have one level of government that is involved in addressing these unique challenges in our community. One government. They can't even meet our needs no more.
Even former Auditor General Sheila Fraser reported in 2011 that First Nations needed all level of governments, all level of governments, to assist in addressing our on-reserve housing needs. We cannot continue to rely exclusively upon the provisions of the Indian Act and the exercise of federal ministerial discretion to fund housing and infrastructure. That's a strong statement from Sheila Fraser, but it was never worked on, and I think it's time for somebody to get that report out and really look at it.
We have no land on our reserve to build new housing We have a ten-year housing plan in place, but we cannot move because we don't have the land to put the houses on. We have a limited ability for new infrastructure, even new housing.
I will give you a good example. For the new school, we gave up 62 lots to accommodate the new school. That's a lot. It only shows how much we need land. This was necessary because our children were in school buildings that were long contaminated from when INAC ran the school in the late 1970s. The children waited so many years, so we made that sacrifice and said, "Oh, come and take that land for the school." But in the meantime, we are still facing the challenges for new housing.
Because of the Indian Act, the First Nation has to deliver all housing. Private developers and the three levels of government operate off reserve to ensure the housing needs of non-First Nation communities are met. First Nations don't have the same resources because the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development only allocates amounts that do not permit us to adequately maintain the existing housing and infrastructure to meet modern expectations.
We need to work with the province. We need to, because they don't have the ability or treaty obligation to work with the First Nations on infrastructure and housing on reserve.
Cities like Thunder Bay have the freedom to plan and develop approaches with developers and raise revenues, but as First Nations, we don't have that freedom. We don't. We don't receive the same revenue from the province that cities do, from the use of resources from our traditional lands.
A lot of times we say we have resources on our land, but we are not really getting no benefits, but in the meantime the province has all the resources from our land. At the same time, we don't get nothing from it.
So our people are willing to pay rent. Right now, they are paying rent for CMHC housing or the rental projects. They are willing to pay rent. They know that. They are aware that the only way that we are going to get housing is to pay rent because it's a different way of life now. They recognize that.
People are still living in tent frames. They are still living in tent frames. They are building their tent frames to escape the overcrowding, to escape the health problems, family conflict, and safety problems that are the natural results of overcrowding.
Overcrowding has an impact, and a massive impact. You would have to see it yourself in order to believe it. It's a sad situation, but it's a fact. Living in overcrowding has an impact that you would have to feel for yourself.
They exercise their choice to do it on their own. It is not a choice you should have to make, but it's a choice that they are making.
Many of our people left the reserve, either temporarily or more permanently, because they had no place to stay. Being separated from the family, culture, the social structure, the land and the language does them great harm. They suffer often far more than those of us who have remained on a reserve. That is also the choice our members shouldn't have to make. It's hard. It's hard.
I just want to say thank you for taking the time to hear about our community and the challenges that we are facing. I would like to encourage all levels of government to implement a new approach to accessibility for housing and improving funding for infrastructure in our community and to review Sheila Fraser's 2011 report recommendations in which she describes the same challenges and difficulties that I have spoken about today.
Thank you again for giving us this opportunity. We are compassionate people and resilient people. We will remain so despite the Third World conditions in which we live.
On behalf of the First Nations, I invite this committee and other federal and provincial leaders to visit our community so that you can see the hardship we experience and to get a more accurate understanding of our circumstances.
I apologize for the way I sound, but it's a very sensitive issue for me as the chief. Every day, I see my people crying, and it's hard to see them like that.
Again, thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Chief Spence, for coming here to explain the situation very eloquently. It's much appreciated.
I'm going to suggest that we hear from Mr. Morris, representing Kasabonika. He is a councillor.
Mr. Morris, I think I explained about having to hold down the button when you are speaking, please.
Please go ahead.
Mike Morris, Councillor, Kasabonika Lake First Nation: Good afternoon.
[Mr. Morris spoke in his Native language.]
God bless.
The James Bay Treaty, Treaty 9, was signed by our Kitchenuhmaykoosib Nation and Great Britain, as represented by Canada and Ontario on July 5, 1929 at Big Trout Lake. My grandfather, Geordie Winnipetonga, signed on my behalf.
As a signatory to Treaty 9, I'm making this presentation on behalf of Kasabonika Lake First Nation. My name is Mike Morris. I'm a councillor, and my portfolios are Major/Minor Projects (Housing), Governance, and Education.
I always carry a copy of Treaty 9 with me. It is somewhat tattered and torn, but I really believe it encompasses the reason why we are here today.
It is said that "Nations make treaties, treaties do not make nations," and that is the truth. Any treaty has both treaty rights and treaty obligations. We have remained true to our treaty obligations in that we have lived in peace with our non-native brothers. It is in the realm of treaty rights where the problems reside and are allowed to grow. These created problems have been articulated in the previous submission that was sent to your office, but I will highlight some of the created problems.
But before that, I want to go into some background. Canada, as the successor state, has the legal obligation to enforce Treaty 9. In their wisdom, Canada enacted the Indian Act which led to the creation of the Department of Indian Affairs. The Indian Act is a racist policy and has no place in treaty relationships, but it exists. AANDC, for all its good intentions, must implement this racist policy.
The end result is the chaos which our people are forced to live in as part of their daily lives. Yes, it is true. Third- world conditions exist amongst our people. This negative existence is not what my grandfather envisioned for our people. The Bible tells me God wanted our people to have an abundant life, not the squalid conditions we find in our community at this time. Please remember these people are signatories to Treaty 9, and this Senate committee must not only lament the deterioration of my grandfather's vision for our people when they signed Treaty 9, but they must propose the process whereby Treaty 9 can be enforced by Canada.
I'm not a Chief, so I never use the term "implementing the treaty," because I believe it's in place; it's in force.
A summary of the problems that we have is outlined in the attachments here. The following was developed by our housing program:
The 2014-2015 homeless number is 40 families — 34 families at this time. There are 63 families and individuals who are forced to share homes. The resulting overcrowding lists the following and I'm going to just highlight four. This is to give a human face to what is happening in our community.
Eleazor Anderson lives with 14 people in a three-bedroom house. Elly Fox lives with 11 people in a two-bedroom house. Cornelius Anderson lives with 17 people in a three-bedroom house. Jackson McKay lives with 15 in a three- bedroom house.
For the community of Kasabonika Lake, we are faced with the following: As made evident by the overcrowding list, our population growth has outstripped the housing stock that we have. Serviced lots are at a premium. We live on an island that's two miles long and half mile wide. To develop the required housing lots with water and sewer service is very expensive. The environment that we live in is the problem. Yet, INAC continues to insist that we must develop these high-priced housing lots which are mostly located in muskeg conditions. This is a waste of our very minimum dollars.
Even if we could develop the required housing lots, Hydro One Remote Communities Inc. has enforced a non- connection policy upon our community. What we are forced to do is tear down the old house and put a new house in the same spot. We have to use the same wires for the new house. This situation locks us in a process where we cannot construct any new houses to add to our housing stock.
We are past-extended in our water and sewer services as we have no more serviced lots at this time. We are forced to rely on trucked water and sewage services, which is very costly. Also, at this time, our sewage plant is way past capacity and has been for the last decade or so. There are times when raw sewage flows into our lake water supply.
We were almost forced to state our declaration of emergency last week. Council was contemplating this action so that this Senate committee could appreciate our people's negative situation. Our council has held off on this action as we have been working hard to secure the required community infrastructure.
I am pleased to report as of today, I hope, that our Electric Upgrade No. 5 will be approved by INAC, and the project will be completed by Christmas 2015. For this coming Christmas, I will only be allowed my one Christmas light.
We have received preliminary statements that our sewage lagoon project will be approved for construction in 2015.
Last week, the chief and I went to the Royal Bank and they agreed to provide us a loan so that we can construct 20 new homes.
These great gains still face some difficulty due to the lack of land for our housing lots. Remember, I said we live on an island that's two miles long and half mile wide. Now, we have to look at so-called Ontario Crown land where we can place our next housing subdivision. We know Ontario will throw blockades to our additions-to- reserve project. I will leave it at that.
In terms of solutions, I'm not here to again lament the enormous difficulties we face in our work to create a better community for our people. We have solutions which we will articulate, and they point to the introductory comments. Treaty 9 is here, and it is alive. Canada needs to meet their treaty obligations because the sun still shines, the grass still grows and the river still flows.
In terms of the housing funds, the obvious answer is more funding.
Let us look at our situation. In order to meet the rigid stipulations of the housing code, the end result, as had been said here, is one new house now costs $250,000. Our First Nation is allocated $400,000 in minor capital funds. In order to build four houses each year, we have to assemble the required funds from many sources. Due to the lack of certainty of these funds, this situation cannot continue, as the major source of funds are the bank loans. Slowly but surely, our First Nation is being edged toward either co-management or third-party management because of these loans. Perhaps this is the end-game scenario for our First Nation by INAC, but this process cannot be allowed to continue.
The remoteness factor is part of the funding system, and we need to take a look, a hard look, at what the remoteness factor should entail. The amount allocated for remoteness factor must be greatly increased.
As you are aware, our First Nations are allocated funds from Canada and Ontario. We have sometimes managed to create surpluses within some of our programs, but then we are required to hand these funds back. We should be able to hold on to any surplus funds and apply them toward housing, renovations and maintenance needs.
One idea is to create a housing commission for remote First Nations, those communities that are only accessible by air. Instead of competing for the scarce housing funds, we need to find ways to create the required housing funds.
In the meantime, a low-cost, low-interest housing capital borrowing solution guaranteed by the government, like CMHC section 95, should be made available, and the focus must be home ownership. We are doing this right now with those ten houses that we are getting through the bank loan.
With regard to community infrastructure, the following is our situation. In recent years, INAC has combined our housing dollars and our community infrastructure dollars, and council is forced to choose where to allocate the provided funds. Either we provide more to infrastructure and the housing gap increases or we allocate more to the community infrastructure and the housing deteriorates more rapidly. This kind of situation doesn't allow for long-term planning.
At this time, INAC's past and present approach of robbing Paul to pay Peter has resulted in national chaos for all our First Nations. We are being coerced into competing for the available infrastructure dollars and that results in lack of cooperation in combatting our continuing problems at the local, regional, and national levels by our leadership.
INAC has their Guidelines for the Alternative Approaches to Growth Related Capital Infrastructure Projects. The Ontario First Nations Technical Services Corporation, in conjunction with our tribal councils, must work on the Ontario-wide strategic plan on how we can upgrade this program to expand its mandate and amount of funding.
In the capital planning process that we are going to start, our focus is a 20-year housing/infrastructure plan. Funds need to be provided for this process for each First Nation, and then a process can be developed as to how we would be able to implement each of our First Nation's 20-year housing/infrastructure plans.
On each side of me is a chief, one from Attawapiskat and one from Muskrat Dam. The present process forces us to compete for the available dollars that are provided. There is no way that we are able to incorporate, even if we wanted to. That has to change, and the only way we can do that is if all of us put together our own plans and work together to find solutions that will allow us to do what needs to be done for each of our communities.
Education is one of my portfolios. In 1994, our people had a good year. That is when we had the grand opening for our Chief Simeon McKay Education Centre. In 1980, Chief Simeon had asked me to write the proposal to INAC for a new school. At that time, we had a very bad teacherage and three-classroom school. It took 14 years to build a new school.
Right now, our student population is very high, and any available space we have is used as classroom space. We are talking about libraries, storage room. Storage room is where we have our special needs education teacher. It's a classroom. I think it's a room the size of this square in the middle.
We need a new school for our students and, this past summer, we submitted our proposal to INAC to start a new school study, and we hope we don't have to wait 14 years for this one. It is also our hope that we will be able to be provided with enough teacherages so that we can entice teachers to stay longer. Right now, we are forced to hire couples because we don't have enough teacherages.
The nursing station is not part of my portfolio, but it falls under major projects. We do not have a full nursing staff because we don't have enough accommodation for them. We all know the health problems that our people face, and we do need a well-equipped and modern nursing station. The lack of power has forced the cancellation of one start date, but with the good news this afternoon, I'm hoping we can start planning for the new nursing station by 2017-18.
We have been working on governance since 2005. We have some codes and policies in place, but there's no capacity- building dollars provided.
We mentioned a need for a 20-year housing/infrastructure plan for our community. In order for this plan to work, we need to update our governance system so that the plan can continue no matter who is on council. Without a proper 20-year housing plan which is endorsed for our people, we will only remain with the status quo.
When I mentioned the Indian Act being part of the ongoing problem, it is in the area of stable governance where this antiquated piece of racist legislation rears its ugly head. Each elected council is given two years whereby to initiate any real change, and that is an impossible task. I will leave that at that point.
In conclusion, I sometimes hear Prime Minister Harper on the world stage talk about human rights. I wonder if he recognizes housing as part of the right to an adequate standard of living. The right of housing is recognized in a number of international human rights instruments. Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights recognizes the right of housing as part of the right to an adequate standard of living. It states that:
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Article 11(1) of the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights also guarantees the right to housing as part of the right to an adequate standard of living.
In international human rights law, the right to housing is regarded as a freestanding right. This was clarified in 1991 General Comment No. 4 on Adequate Housing by the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights. The general comment provides the interpretation of the right to housing in legal terms under international law.
Yesterday's Chronicle Journal, the local newspaper, carried a story about this committee, and they made the statement: "During the debate, it was noted that the inadequate state of First Nation infrastructure was already outlined in a 2011 Auditor- General's report." I guess they were surmising that there was no need for you people to come around and see us.
I am providing the briefing note for the Nishnawbe Aski Nation/Media Community Visit from January 18, 2012. This report was prepared one year after the 2011 Auditor-General's report, and you can view the conditions at that time. Nothing has changed.
Will anything change due to our submissions to this Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples?
The honour of the Crown is tarnished as they have not kept their word in regard to Treaty 9. The promises made to our grandfathers have not been fulfilled. The vision of our grandfathers has not been lived up to by Canada.
The James Bay Treaty, Treaty 9, is alive and well among our own People.
We ask this Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples to inform Prime Minister Harper that Canada must fulfill its treaty obligations to our People.
Thank you and God bless.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Morris, on behalf of the committee for a very thoughtful and compelling presentation and for the material you have provided.
I just want to say that we have chosen to study this subject intensively this year and into next year not because it's easy, but because we all believe and recognize this is an extremely important issue that affects all aspects of life in First Nations communities.
We thank you for your help. We certainly sense your frustration and I can only hope that we can make a difference, and we will make a difference.
I will note that we are committed to issuing a report before the end of this year, an interim report, with recommendations to which the government will be required to respond. We are committed to doing that.
Thank you for your help in advancing our understanding of the problem.
We also have an opportunity to hear from Chief Gordon Beardy of the Muskrat Dam First Nation.
If you are ready, sir, please proceed. You have to hold the button down when you are speaking, please.
Gordon Beardy, Chief, Muskrat Dam First Nation: Thank you very much.
I'm the Chief of Muskrat Dam First Nation. I'm the grandson of Sampson Beardy. Sampson Beardy was the chief at the time when Kitchenuhmaykoosib signed the treaty, so I know what treaty agreements were made and how your government has lied to us and broken every promise that they made.
Until this day, we have continued to feel oppressed and we continue to suffer. With the Government of Canada, under Prime Minister Harper, I feel like we are not in Canada. He seems like a dictator. There are always new bills that are being pushed through without consulting us, without acknowledging us.
I just want to make the point that I have no trust in the government. They haven't given me any reason why I should trust them. I don't know why I am here, how this presentation will be used. It could be used against me, or maybe it is about time that the government becomes sincere in how they relate to First Nations people under the treaty.
When you look at the background of Muskrat Dam, our reserve is located in northwestern Ontario and it is one of the remote communities in the extreme northern region of the province. Northern Ontario has been known to be the traditional homelands and historical habitat of Aboriginal people for thousands of years, and at the moment, it is still aborigine wilderness.
Muskrat Dam First Nation became independent with reserve status in 1976. Currently, Muskrat Dam has 435 registered First Nation members with an ongoing fluctuation of on- and off-reserve population due to the lack of housing in the community or better opportunities for employment in the urban centre, or for further education in high schools, colleges and universities, and many people have to be close to better health centre facilities in the urban areas, especially elders who are in need of care or special care.
The population statistics show the growth rate increases each year, and the average family has between three to six children in the household.
The community is accessible year round by airport only and the winter roads from December to March.
Housing crisis: Muskrat Dam community is experiencing a serious backlog of housing needs for 25 family units. We have built 28 units within the last five years to try and meet the needs of our people.
The First Nation continues to upgrade and renovate houses since the life expectancy of a new house is only 15 years due to the type of building materials we can afford. Damages can occur as the outcome of severe weather conditions and climate changes in northern Ontario. Many housing units cannot last more than 10 years.
With the current substandard residential units, many of them develop moisture within the interior structure which creates the potential for health-related problems to the occupants, especially the elderly and the children.
Approximately 95 per cent of residential units are heated with wood stoves.
Drinking water crisis and road network: Our treatment plant has been providing the water for the past 20 years and has never been upgraded. I have a letter here. For the past 11 years now, we have been in a boil-water advisory situation. The community membership is continually subject to health problems due to the consumption of contaminated water contributing to increased illnesses.
The Muskrat Dam water treatment plant that was built 20 years ago does not meet the standards that are required today. We don't have a second reservoir for filtering to give clean water. I have stated again and again to the government people that children are getting sick; people are getting sick.
Individual houses, band office, nursing station, post office, stores, schools, daycare centres, recreation centres; all our facilities are advised not to drink water, but they still have to brush their teeth. They still have to use it in other ways.
We have been negotiating to try and get this going but to no avail. This is Canada, and that's what makes me mad. It's that our resources are being extracted and our land and water are being contaminated. I can't drink the water I used to drink growing up because of the pollution that is created by the foreigners.
Now, you make us beg. I'm not a beggar. You make us beg again and again. We are proud First Nations people.
My dad taught me to get up at two o'clock in the morning to start going into my trap line to hunt and to provide. I'm not a beggar. Why do you make us beg for every little problem that you have created for us?
We have five kilometres of gravel road to the airport, and then we extended the gravel road, which we call "Harvesting Trail." Nowadays, elders want to keep on practising their traditional ways. Children are taught at an early age to go into the land, to be with their families. So we built this Harvesting Trail where they can harvest rabbits, partridges, other meats in order to supplement their diet.
What has happened is we haven't had a penny from the government to offset our costs. We have been harassed by MNR to stop the project, and we can't afford to. Isolated communities have had suicides because the people don't have anything to do.
So we need the government to open their eyes, to listen to us, and to stop legislating us.
Fuel costs are staggering. Another important need for our community is the fuel for heavy equipment, small engine equipment, vehicles, diesel engines, and indoor furnaces. The cost of fuel is very expensive in comparison to the South. Winter road system is most economical for fuel delivery, but the community does not have sufficient storage for an annual supply.
The gas to travel costs us right now $1.80 per litre. Once we run out, when we fly, then it costs $2.85 a litre. It could be more depending on when the fuel goes up and down. During the summer, fuel has to be flown in to last until winter road delivery sometime in January.
The cost of living, which is disgraceful, is subject to delivery systems for necessities. Limited ground transportation is utilized, winter road, for four months a year. It benefits our community much better than the air freight delivery system.
Much of our community revenue and family income will continue to subsidize the cost of freight. Therefore, families and individuals who are dependent on social assistance and Old Age Security pensions will continue to experience lack of financial support considering that they only get their financial assistance once a month. Social assistance for a single person is about $300. This amount can only provide a week of food supplies. That is an honest truth. Many are struggling. Many are going hungry.
If you were in our shoes as chiefs, you would be screaming. You would be screaming, especially when you know the land belongs to your people, and it's being used by others to their benefit.
Associated social issues: Young people are severely impacted with limited activities, such as training programs, employment skills programs and recreational programs, to name a few, which can help alleviate some of our current social problems. As a result, they begin using prescription drugs which has reached an epidemic scale, with no fast cure for individuals.
We have to continue to run our sub-oxone program, which is our local rehabilitation program, and it's only for a 28-day period. The program is meant to provide the initial stages of rehabilitation procedures and awareness for programming which is needed by individuals who complete the 28-day period.
The First Nation involves professional counsellors to conduct on-site counselling sessions, but it lacks proper financial assistance to hire more professional resource people. We have very limited funds to operate this program and, currently, we are struggling to find funds for aftercare. The key element of aftercare is to provide continuous support for individuals who complete the 28-day program.
Many of our young people have come forward. They want help, and we want to help them, but we cannot help them if the government is not going to stand up and help us to help our people.
Funding issues: Since Muskrat Dam First Nation received reserve status, it has not been receiving adequate funding for housing, community infrastructure, and public services. Annual capital funding for housing can only afford substandard building materials, which in most cases may only meet basic requirements within the building code guiding principles.
Without federal government's attention and commitment to assist Muskrat Dam First Nation with additional capital funding, it is unlikely that our community will ever have access to proper residential units, clean drinking water, adequate road maintenance, management and control of our social issues/problems and other financial support for our community infrastructure.
Muskrat Dam is in need of funding to help our young people with drug problems, and it is urgent that the federal government understand our position. The word "urgent" does not mean five years from now. We expect action on what we have presented here.
The majority of Canadians — this is embarrassing — continue to enjoy what is expected as basic services in most southern parts of the provinces across Canada.
When I look at the children I represent, it makes me angry, as a leader to, see what the government is doing to us. I'm elected to fight for my people, and I speak here now hoping that my voice will be heard.
I have heard the words of the government. Their words are sweeter than honey, but their actions speak a different language.
Where are you going to be? I understand that you work with the government. Are you going to stand up for our cause?
Muskrat Dam First Nation should not have to encounter difficulties to access resources and services. Through the treaty agreement, the federal government has a fiduciary obligation to meet the needs of Aboriginal people, including Muskrat Dam First Nation.
We agreed to be partners. We agreed to share with you. We have fulfilled our agreement under the treaty. When is your government going to show us in good faith they want to fulfill their treaty obligation? When? Do I die not seeing it? Do my grandchildren hear about it and not see it? The people I represent, will they ever see it?
I'm hoping this information that we have presented to you will help you to begin to serve justice to our people.
In closing my comments, I would like to say, on behalf of my community, Muskrat Dam First Nation, it is a privilege for me to appear before you and a good opportunity to share and participate in the Senate committee study.
Thank you very much.
The Chair: Chief Beardy, I would like to thank you on behalf of the committee for the dignity with which you presented your compelling case. I'm confident that we all understand why you would want to scream, and I'm sure we are grateful that you did not. That was a very effective, memorable presentation.
I believe we are committed to trying to make a difference in standing up for your cause, and this afternoon and today has helped greatly in that connection.
I would now like to go to questions.
Senator Tannas: I wantto get a few things on the record here for us so that when we are looking back, we have some consistent information.
I deeply appreciate the time that you took to come here and also the passion with which you spoke.
With that, I'm wondering if we could just get from Councillor Morris and Chief Beardy, just so we have this information, how many people do you estimate in each of your First Nations are living on reserve right now?
Mr. Morris: Our number is a little over 1,000 on that small island we call home.
Mr. Beardy: What was your question?
Senator Tannas: How many are living on reserve right now, in your estimation?
Mr. Beardy: I probably would say 289.
Senator Tannas: Just so that we have consistent information, could you each, Chief Spence, Councillor Morris, and Chief Beardy, just confirm: Do you have any own source revenue, number one? Number two, what is your unemployment rate in the community?
Ms. Spence: What was the first question?
Senator Tannas: Do you have any own-source revenue, so any revenue coming from anywhere other than the government?
Ms. Spence: We do. Not too much, but we have our own resources. In the past, that's how we managed to get the new housing. We did it on our own by getting the resources from Casino Rama and our trust fund that exists from our IBA.
The unemployment rate, I would estimate maybe 75 to 80 per cent in our community, so it's pretty high.
Mr. Morris: I guess Attawapiskat and Kasabonika are in the same boat. Our unemployment rate is about the same, and our own source revenue is Ontario First Limited Partnership, Casino Rama, plus whatever we can generate from our major projects in terms of gravel haul and all that.
Mr. Beardy: I would say we have no revenue other than the government funding, both the province and feds. We have no other revenue.
My understanding, too, is if I enter into an agreement with any company, we have been legislated that we have to show that we are getting that other income, and I know that the governments are going to take it off. You might say no.
Senator Tannas: No, I say yes.
Mr. Beardy: There have been times when the government does stupid things just to keep us oppressed and suppressed.
Senator Tannas: I wasn't disagreeing with you. We have heard that before.
The other question was just the unemployment rate in the community.
Mr. Beardy: My feeling is that when we want to make a private agreement, the government has no business to put their nose in there.
Senator Tannas: Sorry, your employment rate or unemployment rate, would it be the same as the others, 75 to 80 per cent or higher?
Mr. Beardy: The only employment we have is any service we have. We have some registered nurses, teachers who are certified teachers, and any employment that we have, basic program, and then short-term work during summer to build houses.
Senator Tannas: Thank you very much.
Senator Sibbeston: I found all of your presentations very effective, heart wrenching and touching.
I come from the Northwest Territories. I'm a Dene, and I live amongst Dene people. The life that you describe doesn't exist up there. People are generally better off. They have better housing and better government services.
In Nahanni Butte, where I was just last week, I was walking around the community. The community has 18 pieces of heavy equipment: graders, loaders, trucks. Some are old; some are new, but 18 of them. I counted them, and I took pictures of them. That's what the little community of maybe 200 people has.
I was an MLA for that area since 1970. Through the years, we have gotten good housing. We started off with tents and with some old log houses. But through the years, we have built it up, so people have good housing now, and people still burn wood, but they also have fuel. Just recently, they have wireless phones. They are really up to date.
So when I hear of your situation, I find it hard to believe that it is in Canada. You could be talking about Africa. You could be talking about some of the most poorest countries in the world, but here we are in Canada. Canada is a very rich country. The conditions you describe are just horrible and it is hard to think that they exist in our country.
I have two questions. You say a lot of people are unemployed, but do you have access to game? Because there are moose and fish, generally, in the country. Do you have access to game and do you have that to supplement your food?
As well, do you depend completely on the government to get out of the situation you are in, or, through various efforts — your own efforts and the efforts of young people who are being educated — can you get out of that situation and someday provide yourselves with a good livelihood and good living? Is there any possibility of economic development in your area that can somehow lift you up?
In the North, with diamond mining and other mines, we have been fortunate; people have been able to use those resources to lift themselves up. I'm just wondering about that.
Then, I wonder what we can do, our little Senate committee, the Aboriginal Peoples Committee? We will write a report and do the best we can. We go to different parts of the country where native people do very well. They live in white men's houses in the same style and class that they have. We have situations that are very well off. But in the more remote parts, particularly the northern parts, the regions of our provinces, many communities live in the conditions that you describe, very poor, with a lot of social problems and a lot of difficulties.
There is such a big contrast, and it seems that First Nations benefit from living close to big centres because of business and other things. In the remoter parts of the country, it's not quite like that. You really depend on yourselves to face all of your problems and try to find solutions, and then look to the federal government to help you.
I'm interested to know how hopeless it is. Chief Spence, a couple of years ago, brought the issues to national attention. Do you have to do that again in order to focus attention on it, or what are you going to do in order to alleviate and improve the situation?
The Chair: That's a lot of questions, country food.
Ms. Spence: Thank you for those questions. I think those questions are unique, really.
Since I have been a chief and living in the reserve — I never grew up in a reserve, but I have been here for 14 years — it's a different life. It was an eye-opener for me.
You asked: Do you depend on AANDC? For me, I don't want to depend on AANDC, but somehow this government, even the provincial government, they somehow forgot about the treaty partnership, the relationship. It was signed with our grandfathers and your grandfathers, but somehow, in the process, the government took control.
When you have a partnership, you are supposed to come together as a team, and that was the purpose of this treaty; to build a future together, to live in peace and to honour each other.
For me, and I'm sure other First Nations, we don't want to have to depend on the government, but the relationship is there. This is the message I was trying to get through during the hunger strike to renew that relationship, to get all the chiefs and both levels of the government to sit down and understand the treaty. We understand the treaty. We honour it with all our hearts, but it's the government that never honoured it, and it's still not honouring it. It's both levels of the government.
Our grandfathers, even to this day, we have never enforced any legislation or laws to change your life, but the government did that to us. A good example is the residential schools. They took everything away from us, and it's still happening. We are in the second chapter of the residential schools. That's how I see it.
It's time to meet and sit down and renew that relationship because they are imposing their legislation on us. I don't know by what right they do that.
You asked the question: What could we do as a committee? You tell the government to sit down with us and honour the treaty and be our partners in this treaty, If not, our grassroots people are making a lot of noise. If the government doesn't change, then there's going to be an action from the grassroots people.
Right now, the chiefs' hands are tied with the system. When we raise our voice with the government, they ignore us. They don't even have the courtesy to say, "Okay, we will meet you." No. They just ignore us, and they always mislead the media. They are good at that, because I saw that during my hunger strike. They twist everything around. I was a bad person of this Canada. They do that to other First Nation leaders, too. They mislead Canadians. They do. They always use that phrase, "We are a burden to taxpayers." We are not. We are not. The resources are from us, and we are entitled to benefits, but it has been hidden on the agenda.
We have our tribal councils, our AFN, Chiefs of Ontario, Mushkegowuk, and other ones. We don't need Indian Affairs no more. We are capable of doing our own business now, but they still want to be in control.
The partnership is not about control; it's about working together, so I encourage this committee to tell the government to let us be. Take the Indian Affairs up the bum, and we don't need them no more. We have a lot of individuals or people who are qualified to manage their finances and projects. We are capable of doing that. We don't need to be treated like puppets. They need to change the way that they are thinking their protocols.
Economic, yes. We like to have economic in our community, but because of the Indian Act, it's restricting everything that we want to do. A lot of mining companies are coming around our area, but they want to get ABA agreements, and it doesn't work. We need revenue sharing just like the city that is close by the mining. We should be entitled to the same benefits. It will build our community. That's all we want.
We want to build our community. We want a better infrastructure. We want better housing. We want better water treatment. We want to build our communities like in Thunder Bay and Ottawa. That's all we are asking for. We want our youth to get the best quality education.
Right now, there is a big gap in funding. Why is that? Why are we so different? Why? I keep asking that, and I still don't have an answer.
Now, we are here. We are going to be here forever just like you guys. As long as the sun shines and the water is there, and the grass is growing, we are going to be here with you.
It's the government that needs to change its attitude toward us and stop misleading the Canadian citizens. It is very good at that. I saw it with my own eyes, and I even heard it. I will give you a good example. When I went to third party intervention, when he made that statement that we received $90 million, he didn't explain what that money was for. He didn't explain that money was for the services, but he made it sound like it was for each person, $50,000 each. That's not true. He misled my people, too.
This committee needs to really tell the government to stop doing these kinds of actions because it creates a lot of problems. It creates racism. It creates hate, even kills people because of his statement.
Yes, we have our culture practice, our traditional animals, but it's costly to accommodate that now, too, but the people are still determined. In the meantime, mining companies are coming in our area. They are driving the animals away, but we need to find a way to keep them in our area.
Yes, our people are still capable of surviving, and they are proud people just like you guys. You have a different way of life and skills. We have our own. We respect yours, and we want the same from the government.
They need to stop treating us like little kids. We are not. We are partners of the treaty. That treaty is being dishonoured, but the court, even if you were to take it to court, I don't know what is going to happen. But if we do speak and fight, we are going to get punished by the government.
That's what happened to Attawapiskat when we fought in court. They withheld our funding for so many months. The day after the court, we were informed that we were not approved for our CMHC housing. Those kinds of actions by the government, it shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't be.
We are here with you guys. All we want is peace and a secure future for our children. The time of my generation was the darkest chapter of our lives, and I'm still living in it, but I'm doing my best to recover from that chapter. But it still exists.
I encourage this committee to really tell the government to either honour the treaty or tell them to go home.
Mr. Beardy: Thank you for getting us most depressed.
Senator, you asked two questions. I had mentioned about building our roads 25 kilometres past the airport, and that is being used by community members to harvest game to supplement their meat, so your question is yes.
You asked about what our plans are. We have many of our young people coming to high school going on to universities, but coming back, there is nothing there for them.
So as a chief in my community, we are open to talk to investors or developers in mining. We are open. Also, we have run of the river systems and we are open to development in partnership. We are hoping that can happen.
Mr. Morris: What Chief Beardy said is what happens. People supplement what they need from what God has provided to our people, but there's a change there, too, that is going on. It's a forced change. I know in our community that many of our young hunters need gas in order to be able to practice their traditional livelihood, but cannot because of the price of gas — and I wish I could go to Muskrat Dam — which is $2.50 a litre. They need gas to get out there. In order to be pay for that gas, whatever they get, they sell to the rest of us, and that's a change, a forced change on our people that we still haven't come to grips with, but it is happening.
In terms of the question, I guess I would rephrase it like this, but that's being nice. How do the dispossessed get their possessions back? That's a nice way of putting it. When I say that the Indian Act is racist, I was being nice about that, too.
For those of us who have been in this business of trying to help our people for our lifetimes, we have come to understand that what the senator is asking is naïve. What I mean by that is, when Christopher Columbus landed upon the shores, there was something that he brought with him, a way of life and a legal system. That has made its way up to this part of the country.
When I say that we are dispossessed, it's much more than that. One of the things that the doctrine of discovery and the doctrine of terra nullius has in place is that the people who were there before were just the people whom you see in front of you here. We are recognized as nonhumans, and to this day, that's the way Canada is built. The only way that I can legally say who I am right now is to produce my status card that Indian Affairs gives to me. I cannot say legally that I am Mike Morris and have that recognition extended to my nation. It's not like that. The only way I'm recognized is by having my status card, and that is an artificial designation. I have a very hard time with that.
I guess there are things that could be done. I will give you an example. The Chiefs, whenever they meet, when they talk about Treaty 9, they say that it needs to be implemented, and that's a trained process that they talk like that.
To me, I saw that home on July 18, and then the call came through the radio station that I'm supposed to go to the band office and get my $4 treaty annuity. I didn't have to do a darned thing, just show up. Yes. If Treaty 9 wasn't implemented, those INAC people would not be in there with my two toonies. I didn't have to do a damned thing at all, so that tells me Treaty 9 is implemented just for those two toonies. It signifies a lot.
Why can't Canada do the same thing across the board? Why is it, like Chief Beardy said, that we have to beg? I'm a proud man. I'm proud of who I am. Those two toonies, our people laugh at that, too, but they never understand that Canada is forced to do it to enforce Treaty 9, when they do that trip to give me my two toonies. If our leadership could ever understand how that is done and have that implemented across the board, I don't think we would be begging.
But there is an interim step that could be taken, and that is: Why does Indian Affairs have to give me money that they went to the Treasury Board for? What is stopping me from going directly to the Treasury Board? The treaty relationship is there. I should be able to go there. As far as I'm concerned, Treasury Board gathers all the taxes on resources and lands that belong to us. Why is it that we are denied that privilege of going directly to them? If all the government departments in Canada within the Canadian government can go to the Treasury Board for their money, what is stopping me from going directly there to get that money?
That's always been in the back of my mind, and, to me, it's not a far-fetched idea. It's already done. What is stopping us from doing it?
I don't like begging. I have been more or less on my own since I was nine years old when I went off to residential school. I don't have a good enough education, but I managed to graduate when nobody else was graduating with a Grade 12. I know what education is all about.
I will tell you this: My grandfather was a chief, and was in big trouble at one time, about the 1940s. He told my dad to go live at Pickle Lake, which is a mining town, and he told him, "I'm sending you there so you can learn how to live like a white man. Try and understand how a white man lives the way that he does."
When my dad sent me off to high school when I was 15, his message was, "You will learn how a white man thinks."
I will tell you right here and now: I don't like the way the white man thinks. It's a matter of dispossession that you are talking about and it's much more than that.
If I want to talk about economic development, I could gaze through the top, I guess, and say there are ways that we can do it, but there are things that are happening.
We have a northern store in our community, and one study that our chief did at one time said that, for every dollar that we bring in from government or wherever, 55 cents gets taken up by a northern store. How do you build the economy that you are talking about when that situation continues? How do you break the cycle of poverty when that kind of situation is allowed to continue?
I'm not really mad at anybody. There is a system in place that you are also prisoners of. I'm a prisoner of that. Maybe we can understand each other at the human level one of these days and be able to do a better job for our grandchildren.
Senator Moore: I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I have learned a lot. I'm sure my colleagues have as well. Senator Sibbeston is probably well aware of all of this because he has been on the forefront for years.
Councillor Morris and Chief Beardy, both of your nations were parties to Treaty 9. Is that correct? I have never seen it.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: He said he carries it with him.
Senator Moore: I know he said that. Could you maybe leave a copy with the Clerk, because I would like to read it? I would like to know where we are messing up here and where we are letting the other side down.
Mr. Beardy: If you want that information, that will cost you!
Senator Moore: Somebody else said that here today, too.
Anyway, that would be useful if you could. I guess you have to go back to the basics, which in this case was and is a legal document, and I would like to have the chance to read that, because I think it could be instructive in what we recommend. So if you could leave a copy with us or provide it to the clerk, I would really appreciate it. Thank you.
Mr. Morris: Before we go and get that, I have to issue a caution. You have to remember that the treaty process, that Treaty 9 is part of, came from your side. It was Ontario and Canada that started this process, and at that time of expansion — I will call it "expansion" — they had thinking behind what the treaty is all about, and the language that is in the treaty does not really reflect the understandings of our elders. Some of us were fortunate enough to work with elders who were there in 1929 when Treaty 9 was signed at Big Trout. It was first signed in 1905-06.
One of my late friends used to say to me all the time, "Don't cause too much trouble. You are just an addition." Part of the addition grew from 1929 to 1930. The original treaty was signed in 1905-06 with Attawapiskat and those people on the coast.
I wanted to say the treaty is written as it is, but there is another side, the whole understanding of the elders and what we do have. I hope the Nishnawbe Aski Nation still has that documentation because, if not, I spent five years of my life for nothing.
Senator Moore: Who is the keeper of the oral record that was laid out years ago? Is one band the keeper of that for the whole nation?
Mr. Morris: I think the Mushkegowuk from Attawapiskat have done a lot more work than the rest of us. The rest of us are too busy fighting each other. They have managed to clear the air and they have done a lot through their former Grand Chief. But for the rest of us, Nishnawbe Aski Nation should have a record of what we did way back in 1970s.
Senator Moore: At various times, various years, the reserve came into being. Was that part of the treaty? Where did this concept come in? Where did this begin, this idea of a reserve? The recognition or whatever the wording was that it happened at different years for different First Nations peoples. So where did that idea come from?
Mr. Morris: It came from your side.
Senator Moore: Remember, this is White man-Indian 101 relations. You are going to give me a lecture here, but I'm prepared to listen to it.
Mr. Morris: From what I understand, it came from your side in the first Indian Act. That's what it says.
Senator Moore: Was the Indian Act provided for in the treaty?
Ms. Spence: The Indian Act was not part of the treaty at all. It was imposed on us, that Indian Act. It was about taking control and labelling First Nations, so I think that's where the reserve came from. It was the government's plan to kind of isolate us from everybody. So we are still like that. This is where, as a chief, I get really angry about that because we are in the 21st century, and we are still on that Indian Act. That needs to be dissolved and really, we need to review how Canada has been treating First Nations and how they are so much in control.
For me, I didn't learn about the treaty until I was in my late 40s, and it's not even introduced in our school system. Even the Canadian citizens, even those people who come to our country, they are not even taught about First Nations. This is where we need to, as partners, really expose and educate Canadian citizens about what is the treaty.
I'm surprised, at your age, too, you don't even know anything about the treaty. It just shows that —
Senator Moore: I know something about some treaties, but I don't know anything about this treaty, I can tell you.
Ms. Spence: That's what I mean. Sometimes I feel like we don't exist for the government; we don't. But once we start raising our voice and being visible, they treat us like we are the criminals here. They do, yes.
There was a book written by John Long, Nipissing University. He talks about the treaty, and Stan Louttit, who was our grand chief, he was really passionate about that, because when the government always says that we gave up our land, we never did. We have evidence of that from Stan Louttit's research. There were commissioners who were on the journey of this treaty, and there was a person that was writing everything down. It was different what they stated in the treaty. Our grandfathers never gave up our land. Even one of the elders in one of the assemblies made a statement. He said, "There was a commissioner who wrote everything. That's where the truth is. Maybe one day that evidence will show up."
It did. Dairies were found in a university, Queen's University, I think, and that's where they discovered we never gave up the land; we were to share the land.
So just for your information, I think you need to remind the government of that.
Senator Moore: I'm almost embarrassed to ask this question, Mr. Chair.
Chief Beardy, your community has been given a boil-water advisory for the past 11 years? I mean nobody has come forward to give you a hand up to try to fix that situation?
Mr. Beardy: We have had meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, and meetings, and more meetings. Health Canada, I met with them, and they wrote me a letter in October 2003, and it says it is recommended to keep the boil- water advisory in effect — that was initially said — within your community, until the results of further water samples indicate that the water is safe to drink. Until they upgrade, there will be no such thing as better water or safe water. So we are going to be like this until such time that the government decides to upgrade it or replace the old water treatment plant.
Our water operators are getting frustrated. They are telling me there is only so much they can do with chemicals.
Senator Moore: It's just such an insidious cycle because, if we don't have good water, we don't have health. We all need good water. Without the good water and the good health, we are adding to the costs of the system in terms of health and social assistance. I mean, we are just self-defeating.
That's a priority, chair. We have to fix something like that. We are trying to encourage people to have good physical and oral health. Remember too, they put a dental clinic in the school. Here, they couldn't brush their teeth with dirty water. I mean I want us to think about that sort of thing when we come around to doing this report, chair.
Senator Raine: Chief Beardy, earlier you said that the water was contaminated by pollution created by the foreigners. What are the contaminants in your water?
Mr. Beardy: What we have been advised is that the water is not safe anywhere. We don't drink it anymore — with all the acid and other things. We notice that, and it might be many miles down south when the wind blows, there is pollution in the air, and you know that.
When I talk about the drinking water, that's supposed to be treated. The date is August 29. I had contacted Health, and they say the results of water samples collected on August 27, 2014 from Olivia Duncan's kitchen tap for microbiological testing indicated that the water is contaminated with coliform bacteria and very low chlorine residue.
Consumption of the water — this is from Health Canada: "Consumption of water can cause serious health defects. Attached is a copy of the sampling results in your review and records." So I have records.
My question to you is, to kind of revert it back to you: If any of my band members drink water from the rivers and lakes, they get sick. Before, when I was growing up, you could drink water, lie down and drink the water. You would be well. Nowadays, they get sick, anyone. They have to have bottled water or they have to have water that is not contaminated.
Senator Raine: If the water coming from the tap — it was just from a house tap — was contaminated with coliform, that indicates that somehow there's sewage getting into your water system or that the purification levels in the water system aren't good enough to treat wherever the water source is. I guess it's the big issue. You have to figure out where it's coming from.
Mr. Beardy: If you look at Muskrat Dam, the sewage is on the other side, and on the other side is our water treatment plant, and what has happened is we were required to change fuel storage tanks, to go to a certain standard. Now, the requirement is double layer.
With all their technical expertise, INAC came up with a plan, a plan to remove those old tanks and then put new ones.
Now, there was a berm, and right there, within less than 50 feet, was the water treatment plant and the old tanks. When they pulled out the old tanks, shipped them down south, they left the contaminated site open.
Senator Moore: They didn't clean it up?
Mr. Beardy: No. I have letters. I have said to them, "It must be cleaned. It must be." So they said to me, "What we could do is we will put gravel on it." I said, "No. If we have a temporary solution, I know you will never, ever get it done."
Senator Raine: So the contamination of your water system could be coming as a result of those old tanks?
Mr. Beardy: I can't say that. INAC might dispute that. They might say no.
Senator Raine: Have you asked for an inquiry on this?
Mr. Beardy: But I will say this: My water is contaminated.
Senator Raine: That's very disturbing.
Mr. Beardy: I need you to help me decontaminate it.
The Chair: Thank you. I'm going to have to give Senator Dyck the last word.
I want to tell committee members that Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit has been patiently waiting, and we still want to hear from him, so we are going to have to bring this to a close.
Senator Dyck: I would really like to thank the witnesses this afternoon. You have given us a lot to think about, for sure.
My question is going to focus on funding, because whether we like it or not, the general public, mainstream public, when it comes to decision-making and thinking, unfortunately, they always go to the bottom line, which is dollars. The general public, I think, and probably other people, don't really understand. When they see that $7 billion is going out, they assume that that money is going to First Nations. We heard this morning that maybe a third of it is not.
Mr. Morris: No. Two-thirds is not.
Senator Dyck: Two-thirds is not?
Mr. Morris: Yes.
Senator Dyck: That's even worse than I thought.
Mr. Morris: Yes.
Senator Dyck: But members of the general public who are not sympathetic think that — and I will say what you read in articles — throwing more money at this problem will not make it go away. They use that kind of language. Or that it's wasting taxpayer dollars. Yet, what we heard today from you is that the information that does not seem to get out is that there are policies that don't make any sense. There are things that are happening to you at the individual band level, where you are being asked to take from your own resources to supplement what the department is, presumably, giving you to upgrade water. You are paying half; they are paying half. You don't have enough money in the first place, but you have to pay for this. Then you have to make decisions of what to cut out somewhere else, and the funding has been capped since 1995 or 1996.
Does anyone have a summary of those kinds of problems? Because that adds to that whole picture, and I think that's what we need to know. It's that if you know that, then you cannot blame the First Nations. You cannot then blame the so-called victim. You can't say, "It's your fault. We gave you the money. Why aren't you managing it better?"
I hope that makes sense, and I know that Senator Tannas and Senator Sibbeston also brought up the idea of what are other ways of getting out of relying just on AANDC for money? You have talked about resource revenue sharing and other activities. But it does, unfortunately, boil down to a lot of funding questions, and I'm wondering whether you think that it's important to have a piece in our report that talks about how the money is spent and all these kinds of roadblocks and silly policy decisions that make it, it seems like, virtually impossible to balance your books. Then you get put into third party management, and then you get penalized again. Then you just keep going down and down and down in this deep spiral.
The Chair: That's a big question, Senator Dyck. I have a feeling that the answer may be buried in the testimony that we have received today from a number of different sources.
Ms. Spence: That is a good question because I think it's important for the Senate committee to really understand and see the picture.
When you talk about the funding, we receive contribution funding, but it is under set conditions. It's not negotiable. Each end of the fiscal year, we receive the funding for us to sign, but we don't have the opportunity to really review it and negotiate. It's take it or leave it, and if you don't sign it, you don't get the funding. It's like that.
There has to be a different approach because this funding doesn't even focus on the cost of living and inflation. It focusses on the population of the funding.
This is why I keep saying, "Why are we treated so differently? Why can't we get the same funding as the municipalities? We need both governments to work with us and receive funding from them, not just one."
When we have our own resources, it seems that we are going to get penalized or our funding is going to be cut, or somehow they are going to defer it or something.
I'm not in favour of this funding, but I know, if I don't sign it, I'm not going to have any funding. I already explained that when we fought the third party intervention, we didn't have no funding for six months, I believe.
I keep on hoping the chiefs will fight about this contribution funding, and I keep saying, "We don't need Indian Affairs no more. We have our own body of government that could oversee this and look at this and start looking at the revenue sharing." Mining companies come to our communities and our traditional land, and they disturb the land, the water, and the animals, but we don't even get compensation from it at all. We are entitled to revenue sharing to get away from the government dependence.
Even Ontario Works is crippling our people. It is. I would like to see Ontario Works out of my community, but I need all the training and the jobs and the revenue sharing.
It's time for the government to give back our rights. They took them away, and it's time, and I encourage this committee to look at the contribution funding and the other funding. Compare the municipalities and First Nations. You will be surprised about the difference. We don't even get 100 per cent to upgrade our water intake. We don't. We have problems with our water treatment.
You will be amazed at what you discover. This is what we need to do. We need to expose what is happening with us, and we need all the parties' involvement on this.
In order for the government and the leadership to come together, our chiefs need to be a part of that Parliament. We need our own people there. Yes, we have Charlie Angus at our end, but that's second-hand information. We need our own chiefs to be there in order to speak for us and really show what is happening in our backyard of Canada. I always see in commercials, they are so proud, and they have freedom, but in our world, we don't see that because of the government's way of recognizing the treaty.
The funding needs to be reviewed and needs to be changed or get rid of Indian Act.
The Chair: One last question from Senator Greene Raine. I'm sorry to be curt.
Senator Raine: No. Thank you, and I appreciate this.
Senator Dyck: You already said one last question.
The Chair: Yes. I'm very lenient.
Senator Raine: I just was quickly reviewing my notes, and I see that, Chief Beardy, Muskrat Dam was awarded an award, the innovative housing award. I'm wondering if you could send us some information on that because we probably don't have time to go into it today. I would like to congratulate you for that award.
Also, I believe that Kasabonika also got an award for innovative use of government funds, which is kind of interesting. You are certainly doing outstanding things with the limited resources that you have. Thank you.
The Chair: I'm sure you noted that. Thank you very much, everyone, again. You have heard our members express their gratitude for your time and your compelling statements.
Now, colleagues, we have kept Nishnawbe Aski Nation Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit waiting way over our schedule.
Deputy Grand Chief Louttit, we thank you for your patience. I guess you can see why we are late. We weren't twiddling our thumbs here, but listening to very compelling testimony today. I guess you got the routine about the microphone already, so, please, welcome and thank you again.
Les Louttit, Deputy Grand Chief, Nishnawbe Aski First Nation: Good afternoon, Senate committee members. My name is Les Louttit. I'm from Fort Albany and Cree Nation on James Bay. I am one of the three Deputy Grand Chiefs of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, and my portfolio includes Housing Infrastructure as well as Economic Development, Resource Development, Energy, and other duties that I share with other members of the executive council.
I'm going to go right into my presentation, but I want to acknowledge our First Nation members who have presented who are part of our Nation.
What they have presented to you are the facts on the ground as they see their communities, the realities of the First Nation housing and infrastructure situation.
What I'm going to present is more of a broader overview at a regional level because this political organization represents the political, economic, cultural, and social aspirations of our communities.
If you look at the first slide, and unfortunately I didn't have time to number these. We were kind of rushed to put together a submission because we weren't advised until last week.
We just had a chiefs' meeting last month, an annual general assembly in which our 49 First Nations were represented here in the city, actually, at the Fort William First Nation.
This Resolution 14/40 speaks for itself from what you have heard from our First Nation members who have presented today, and, really, it speaks to the collective emergency housing and infrastructure situation across the NAN communities and the NAN territory.
It concludes:
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that all NAN First Nations hereby come together to collectively declare a NAN-wide Housing State of Emergency.
FINALLY BE IT RESOLVED that NAN Chiefs-in-Assembly mandate the Executive Council to publicize this NAN-wide Housing State of Emergency and to advocate to Canada and Ontario for funding and program measures that recognize and address the emergency on an urgent basis.
The Nishnawbe Aski Nation was originally established as Grand Council Treaty 9 in 1973 and was renamed the Nishnawbe Aski Nation in the mid-1980s.
On the second slide, you will see the composition of this organization that we call NAN. It consists of 49 First Nations with a total population of 45,000 across the NAN territory, which represents about two thirds of the land mass of Ontario.
I have listed here the seven tribal councils. Some of the First Nations presented are members of these tribal councils that are listed on the second slide.
Six of the 49 are not affiliated, and they are considered to be independent First Nations.
NAN encompasses Treaty 9 as well as the Ontario portion of Treaty 5, covering a land mass of two thirds of the province, totalling 210,000 square miles.
The third slide, we have an on-reserve population of 28,000, approximately 6,000 homes for a population density of 4.7 individuals per home. That represents 26 per cent more than the Aboriginal population density in Canada, which is 3.7 individuals per home. It represents 122 per cent more than the general population density of Canada, being 2.1 persons per home.
Nineteen per cent or 1,149 are on-reserve housing CMHC Section 95 rentals. Less than 1 per cent are privately owned, where over 80 per cent are owned by the First Nation. On average, 140 new homes are built per year in the NAN territory.
So there is an immediate need for 1,900 homes in the NAN territory, which would bring the population density down to the national average. That is before growth rate projections, the replacement rate and major repairs are considered.
The projected growth forecasts show that, in the next 17 years, there is a total of 130,000 new homes required.
On the next slide, titled "Housing & Infrastructure," 20 per cent of these homes need minor repair, less than $25,000 per unit; 25 per cent of the homes need major repairs, more than $25,000 per house; 40 per cent of all homes are ten years old or older. Average homes last between 15 to 20 years. Private home ownership is less than 1 per cent.
Rental regimes differ from nation to nation. With extremely high unemployment rates, individual families are not able to pay rent, and it forces the First Nation to absorb the costs from existing capital sources as well as other funding sources of programs, including Casino Rama funding. Eventually, the First Nation begins to run deficits because they are forced to, under their contribution agreements by the Department of Indian Affairs, recover that cost because a lot of these homes that are under Section 95 or CMHC are under a ministerial loan guarantee, which commits First Nation funds for the repayment in case there is a default.
The current need: A study was conducted by Neegan-Burnside Engineering in 2006 on the NAN's housing and infrastructure needs, based on INAC website data. At that time, it indicated a backlog of 5,000-plus homes to catch up to the First Nations' needs in 2006. Over seven years, the First Nation demographics indicate an average growth rate of 2.3 per cent per year. Application of that rate during the past seven years to current year, 2014, indicates a total current backlog of at least 5,500 or more new homes.
Then there are the annual needs to be determined based on the current First Nation growth rate, household formations, overcrowding, and emergency needs due to fires, floods, the matrimonial property legislation that has been enacted, et cetera.
Housing, the factors: availability of adequate, durable, accessible, culturally appropriate, safe, and sustainable housing is a key determinant of social, health, and economic well-being.
Unsuitable housing conditions in northern communities contribute to barriers to education, employment, and self- sufficiency.
Overcrowded and inadequate housing causes stress and has other psychosocial impacts, which result in negative physical and mental health results, leading to unhealthy coping means, such as substance abuse and addictions.
The cost of healthy living: Using the CMHC costing model, it is estimated that the average cost to deliver and build an average three-bedroom, 1,800-square foot bungalow across the NAN territory is $230,000. If you extend that to 5,000 units, that would cost approximately $1.2 billion.
There are standard development costs that are normally associated with new housing construction: planning, architectural, engineering, consultations, project management, inspections, and commissioning. These soft costs are not consistently applied by all NAN First Nations due to limited capital budgets.
Infrastructure, which includes water, sewer, hydro, and roads: Eight NAN communities have been on a boil-water advisory for over 10 years according to Health Canada. The lack of funding for infrastructure just to bring drinking water up to federal standards in these communities is a major issue.
The Thunder Bay chapter of the Council of Canadians also expressed it concerns in an article released by CBC News on September 9, about what the government calls the Safe Drinking Water for First Nations Act. This legislation is deemed a vital step towards ensuring First Nations have the same health and safety protections for drinking water as other Canadians. However, the council fears this new legislation will force First Nations to meet provincial water standards without providing funding to meet those standards. In other words, there is not going to be any additional resourcing to enforce those regulations. No authority created to regulate or to ensure that the enforcement is there, and there won't be additional capital funding provided to upgrade the systems to current national standards.
The next slide is a table which shows the current housing situation based on AANDC statistics during the 2011/2012 fiscal year. It was calculated according to each of the seven tribal councils for each of those headings across the top, for a tribal council total in the final column, and then for the grand total of $1.11 billion.
Meeting the need: In addition to local cultural and lifestyle preferences, housing must be suited to northern climate and environmental conditions. Meeting these requirements will help ensure that NAN citizens will live in home designs that they prefer; housing that is free from mould; that is flood-proof and fireproof; and housing that is free from major repairs and related health and safety issues.
There is a current need to build adaptable and technologically appropriate infrastructure that meets the demand for changing climatic conditions and that meets improved performance and life cycle endurance of northern housing.
Northern housing needs a broad range of national and regional perspectives and disciplines, including economic and environmental aspects as well as social, health, and cultural considerations. Therefore, a multidisciplinary, holistic approach is needed to develop appropriate and sustainable housing and housing policy for northern NAN communities.
I'm going to ask my Economic Development Officer, Charmaine McCraw, to describe this flow chart.
The Chair: Please, Ms. McCraw.
Charmaine McCraw, Economic and Resource Development Unit Manager, Nishnawbe Aski First Nation: The next slide we just talk about creating solutions, and I think one thing that I have noticed since I have been with Nishnawbe Aski Nation and Deputy Louttit is that we hear a lot about asking for money, asking for money. But I think, and so does the rest of my team, that simply putting more money into existing programs and services is not the solution to address the challenges on reserve. Clearly, structural reform and innovation are required to transform the housing system on reserve. By dealing with root causes and structural issues, by implementing strong accountability and governance structures, concrete improvements and outcomes can be achieved, but those need to happen at the local level as well as, of course, at the policy level. But a lot of the change needs to start in our communities.
If we look at a model, one of the reasons why a lot of the members in our communities can't pay rent and have privately owned homes is that they don't have access to employment. Our communities are a lot different than a lot of the other First Nation communities because NAN does not have access to the larger centres. They don't have the ability to drive to work every day because there are no roads. There are a lot of challenges when it comes to employment.
However, I think there are a lot of ways that we can create employment in our communities. So if we can create sustainable employment in our communities by using strengths from each of those communities, that would help enable families to pay rent.
We also need a lot of community engagement and education so that they understand or have a better understanding of how to care for their homes, also how their system works. A lot of them don't understand that if they don't pay rent then it's coming from somewhere else. That community engagement and education needs to happen in all aspects; fire, all types of safety aspects.
Then we also have to look at investment into our own future. With all of that, we begin to have a process of sustainable housing and infrastructure.
Mr. Louttit: There are some more charts, which I will ask Charmaine to explain. The next one is "Creating Futures for Infrastructure and Sustainable Housing," or CFISH. We have to think of innovative ways to get to the root cause of inadequate housing and poor living conditions. CFISH is comprised of three arms: a non-profit, to develop capacity at the local level; a for-profit, which would focus on the development and oversight of businesses, which would feed into the housing supply chain, so building becomes more cost efficient, and community members can be employed; an investment fund in which each of the businesses or interested parties would be required to invest a certain amount of profit. This fund would then be accessible to our members and communities to apply for funding to leverage further funding for the various infrastructure projects.
Ms. McCraw: I heard some of you speak earlier about other ways that you can fund yourselves and find a way to become economically sovereign, and, yes, there is a way.
What you will look at on the one slide after that short description of CFISH is something that we have been working on at NAN for probably about the last year and a half, two years, and it has finally kind of come to a head, and it is called "Creating Futures for Infrastructure and Sustainable Housing."
This organization would be the delivery vehicle specifically for NAN and independent First Nations when it came to housing. The idea is that the non-profit branch of CFISH would be responsible for capacity building, training, education, administrative reports, providing a liaison service between government and First Nations so that that gap is bridged. There is a lot of miscommunication, mistrust, and that's when things kind of go out the window.
I realize that, for sustainable change, it has to happen at that community level, so capacity building, training our housing managers, training our economic development officers, training our lands managers so that they have the best education possible to manage in their communities. We could look at all kinds of things, but that's kind of the gist of the non-profit branch.
The for-profit branch, this arm of the entity would be responsible for the management, start-up, and oversight of businesses that fell into the CFISH mandate. So what we have been doing is investigating communities, seeing what strengths they have. Some have sawmills. Some have cabinet makers. Some have plumbers. We have been investigating and identifying those business opportunities that would feed into the housing supply chain. We, for so long, have been buying housing supplies from down south and then shipping them up hundreds of miles up north when there are trees all around us.
I heard the discussion about log homes earlier. That may or may not be a solution, but there are opportunities for us to use resources around our communities to help lessen the cost of building a house.
Then, again, through the non-profit branch, you are training your tradespeople so that you are building your own houses. You are not paying construction companies to come in and build.
There are a few Aboriginal housing companies already that are doing prefab homes, things like this. We just need to find those and help them build. They don't always have the capacity to bring them to the next level, so that's kind of the idea behind CFISH.
Then the most important part of this, to me, is the NAN community infrastructure fund, because any of the businesses that we would develop through the for-profit branch would have written into their contracts that there would be a certain amount of profit to be reinvested into this fund.
So this is how we start, and I know it will be a long, slow start, but it has to start somewhere. With this infrastructure fund, like Deputy Loutitt was saying in the mission statement, communities would be able to apply for the $70,000 that they need to get the $240,000 or $1.1 million, or whatever it's going to cost for their water treatments plants.
This is a beginning. By investing in ourselves, we are investing in our future, and this is something that we are almost ready to go to our Chiefs with. I will be meeting with, actually, AANDC and quite a few other organizations — CMHC, First Nations Brick Housing Fund — next week to discuss our ideas and where we are at.
The next slide goes into the goals of CFISH: Create employment opportunities within our communities; build capacity of NAN First Nations staff; and create a pot of money which would be reinvested into community infrastructure.
How do we make that happen? Strong community capacity, ability for individuals to pay rent, proper maintenance programs, address safety issues, and consulting directly with our communities like you guys have done today.
What do we need to do to make this happen? We need to spend some time and identify gaps in capacity, both human and physical; identify potential employment opportunities; potential partnerships beneficial for streamlining of buying process; and existing ventures that require support so that we can, not start all over again, but help those ones that need a hand up.
NAN has been working quite a bit on some other things that we need to do. We have done a housing manager's training and certification this year. We graduated seven housing managers from our First Nations at our Keewaywin conference. They went through a lengthy seven-week, which was one week per month, course that trained them on policy development, building and inspections, everything. I'm not a housing person, so I'm learning all of this, too. They really learned a lot about the skills that they need to really do their jobs.
We are doing a feasibility study for the for-profit housing corporation, which I talk with CFISH; we have been engaging with communities to help them assess their needs; and we have been lobbying government for more financial capacity.
There is a backlog that needs to be addressed, so I will say that there needs to be money invested just to get us up to par. From there, then there is the realization that we do need to help ourselves, and we will go forward from there.
Why we need to work together in unity, I think if our communities come together, then there is a pooling of collective knowledge of business, First Nation markets and government and contribution programs. Everybody knows something different, so I think there is a little bit more collaboration needed on our part as well as all of us coming to the table.
Economies of scale: Working together in unity allows us to increase our buying power. Operating collectively, the investment entity can afford full-time business management staff, and sometimes this is impossible for First Nations.
Why do we need to work together towards success? There is the potential for meaningful job placements for graduating students in various disciplines. Lots of students are the ones who choose to leave their communities to go to school, like I did. I had to leave. My home community isn't a reserve, but it is very northern, quite remote, but there is no reason for me to go back.
So if we look at how we can start jobs in our communities, sustainable jobs, then the youth will want to go back to their communities. That's going to mean the biggest difference right there, because right now, just like in the rest of Canada and Ontario, there is youth out migration. They are not leaving right now because they don't know, because if they leave and come back, there is nothing really to come back to, and that happens all across Canada, not just in First Nation communities.
This CFISH model is a collective step toward self-sufficiency, sovereignty, and empowerment, and I think that's something that the Aboriginal People of Canada really need to work towards, and our northern Ontario is a little bit unique compared to some of the other provinces.
Mr. Louttit: Thank you, Charmaine.
In conclusion, we come to the last slide, which outlines our recommendations to your committee.
One, NAN urges government to develop new innovative ways of administering dollars and to evaluate current structures, such as that which has just been discussed here.
Two, we recommend the NAN CFISH model to government for housing and infrastructure delivery. For the longest time, we have relied on Indian Affairs or CMHC to be the delivery agents. Then when they downloaded the programs to the community level, they just basically handed the program dollars down without any ability or capacity to manage a sustainable program. This organization we are proposing would facilitate that process.
Three, urge government to allocate funding to communities with immediate need to eliminate boil water advisories and bring their water systems up to standards in the long term.
Four, urge government to recognize that capacity development at the local level is needed before we will see any sustainable change.
Five, recommend to government that CFISH be the delivery agent for capacity development, housing programs, trades training and certification.
Six, recommend to government the need for funding for comprehensive community planning in order to help a community strategically guide their housing and infrastructure development.
While we acknowledge the problems, we are presenting here some statistics, but also actual solutions to what we see have been longstanding problems.
There is no reason why one community in Neskantaga First Nation has been on a boil-water advisory for 14 years. That was in the news media on September 8 and September 9 as well as the other communities.
With today's technology, there is no reason why we can't be creative, innovative in order to provide these solutions for the long-term sustainability of our communities.
My colleague and I would like to thank the committee for taking the time to listen to us, and I hope some of our thoughts will be considered towards the long-term solution of this issue. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much, both of you. I think this is a great way to end the day is with a big picture of the region. I was most impressed by the size of your region, your ideas and your concrete recommendations. Much appreciated.
Senator Sibbeston: Thank you for a very impressive presentation.
We have heard from a lot of the communities today, and many of them are having problems just simply getting to government. I also get the sense that there isn't a great deal of communication or rapport with the federal government.
Your organization represents 49 communities, and you represent quite a number of regional councils, and you are organized to a much higher degree. It seems like you have the solutions that would help the communities. I can't help but think government ought to respond to you because you are closer to the people, and you are providing solutions.
Do you find that the federal government or governments are more responsive or likely to be responsive to you? What has been your experience with government? Will they respond to this or will they discard it and ignore it?
Mr. Louttit: They are not discarding it, because they, themselves, don't have the solutions. We have been engaging very positively with AANDC, Indian Affairs, as well as CMHC. An example is the training program for our seven housing managers. They have certification now and have that capacity. I think just last month they completed their courses, and now they are actually undertaking their responsibilities as qualified housing managers.
We are following up with that. We are going to be monitoring them over the next few weeks this fall to ensure that we support them; that we just don't give them the skills or capacity and sending them home, we need to support them. So we are going to be going back. The staff are going to go back and mentor them and make sure that, if they have any problems, we are there to support and provide answers and assist them in creating their own solutions. Each community is unique. Each community is complex. The environment is totally different from the others, so I think this is a very positive step.
CMHC and AANDC are considering another intake, which is going to be very positive. AANDC is seriously looking at our model, and we are hopeful that they will support the continued development of this concept and hopefully we can rely on their resources to establish it so that it will be an actual housing infrastructure entity that can support our First Nations in solving their problems.
Senator Raine: What did you mean when you said "CMHC and AANDC are considering another intake"? An intake for what?
Mr. Louttit: The intake for the housing managers training and certification, because it's a new initiative in Ontario, particularly having regard to the fact that seven of the NAN First Nations are mostly from the remote territories. They have been very highly successful in completing that.
I attended one of their sessions. Just a couple of days before that, they were given a written test, and they were averaging 87 per cent on the written, which is very, very, I would say, surprising. But given that opportunity, it shows that they can do it. We are pushing for a second intake, and I think we have the ear of AANDC as well as CMHC to do that in the next coming months.
Senator Raine: Is that program delivered in the North here?
Mr. Louttit: I believe it's being delivered throughout the province, but maybe Charmaine can elaborate on this.
Ms. McCraw: The housing managers training is a pilot program. It's the first time it has ever been done in Ontario. The way that it was set up is each week, because it was a seven-week program done over seven months, each week, a different community was chosen that has done something innovative in housing so that we would bring our people out of their community so that they could see what was being done, what is possible and different ways of approach. So that was the idea of bringing them out.
Looking at the second intake, however, because it was recognized from some of our students that it's really hard for them to go away for a week, away from their family, away from their jobs when they are integral people in their communities — housing managers don't really have a lot of free time. So we are looking at, for our second intake, to do some partial online training with WAHSA Distance Education. So we, ourselves, too, are being innovative, but in the pilot program, we actually learned quite a bit about how to deliver training to First Nations.
Senator Tannas: On the fourth page of your presentation is a number that raised all our eyebrows: "Projected growth forecasts show that, in the next 17 years, there is a total of 130,000 new home required."That's in Canada, right? It's not 130,000 houses in the NAN.
Ms. McCraw: That's a Canadian statistic.
Senator Tannas: Thank you.
I also want to say how grateful I am to have some concrete, thoughtful recommendations to consider. We are determined to add value to your cause and come up with some good recommendations, so wonderful.
All the stories we heard today — and you were here for many of them — are wonderful. They give us everything that we need to understand how urgent this is, but to get this from you is like a life preserver in a sea of hopelessness. Thank you.
The Chair: While we are talking about the proposal, CFISH, and I know it may be premature, but Ms. McCraw, you said that you are planning to have a meeting with First Nations Market Housing Fund. I know it hasn't happened yet, but does it appear that this kind of initiative might be of interest to them?
You have a meeting. Can you tell us a little bit about that? We might also want to follow up on how that went because this fund was created with great promise about capacity development, and I think it's probably fair to say that we are still waiting to see results, so I would be interested if you could make any comments on that.
Ms. McCraw: Since I have come on with NAN in April, I have held several meetings. First Nations Market Housing Fund, this will be the first time that they have heard about CFISH.
I met with them at AFN in Halifax this year. There's a keen interest on seeing how they can contribute to this project model, and they are definitely open and willing to work with us.
The upcoming meeting is on September 25, the one that I'm hosting with partners from the table, from AANDC. It is not just about housing, more governance, as well as community comprehensive planning, economic development. I'm really trying to bring all the players to the table because housing is so intertwined with everything in our lives — CMHC, Industry Canada, because they are a big player in any kind of studies that we do.
Yes, I would more than welcome your committee to follow up with me and my Economic Development Officer. We are the ones working on the ground with our communities, and we would appreciate any input we would be allowed to have on such an issue like this.
The Chair: Just what I was hoping to hear. Thank you. That's great.
Senator Raine: We are getting a lot of information that indicates that the way AANDC currently operates, with doling out the money in bits and pieces that never meets the need and with a lot of thoughts that it doesn't really get to the ground level, and when it does, there are strings attached that wouldn't necessarily be the priorities of the actual community in building what would work sustainably. If something like CFISH was in place, could it replace AANDC with regard to infrastructure and housing granting and programs?
Mr. Louttit: Absolutely. I think we have the capacity, and through this training program, we initiated that capacity at the local level. That's going to continue.
For years and years, we have seen federal departments downloading programs to First Nations, streamlining, as they call it, in the hopes of cost savings, but, unfortunately, it doesn't really happen that way. I think we can manage. See, the minor and major capital dollars are going to go to the First Nations in any case, and then the department says, "It's up to you how you want to establish your priorities, your five-year capital plan, your ten-year capital plan."
Then priorities change at the community level. If we had the opportunity with the support of the federal government to establish such an entity, I think we would be far more successful in engaging our First Nations, getting their support, as well assisting them in determining their priorities.
If we had an envelope of funds that is geared specifically to NAN territory that is currently being held by AANDC as well as CMHC, I feel, or we all feel, that we can better manage those dollars to the benefit of the community, as well as the maximum buying power, because we can use economies of scales, bulk purchasing, bulk transportation, creating businesses, et cetera, to leverage more.
Private sector funding, the financial markets, I think we could do that better. You have heard one of the First Nations here. There are innovative ways of investing in capital dollars. That's an example. I think we can do it better, and that's why we are pushing for this model.
Senator Dyck: Thank you for that presentation, and thank you so much for the recommendations. It's a great way to end our day.
I'm quite taken with these and want a little more detail. For instance, the question you just had now about funding, I think, would probably come under Recommendation 1, which was urging the government to develop new, innovative ways of administering dollars.
Could you tell us what you envisioned in that? Would that cover this example of getting rid of the department and substituting a structure like CFISH?
Mr. Louttit: There has been a lot of talk about getting rid of the Department of Indian Affairs, but this is not really what we are promoting. We would like to access those dollars that are targeted or allocated to the First Nations.
The Department of Indian Affairs will always be there until they change the legislation, the Indian Act as well as the actual Department of Indian Affairs Act that created the department.
Whether they are there or not, the money comes to the First Nations. We feel that we could help those First Nations manage those monies better through the organization as well as, in consultation with them, establishing their priorities.
I have taken advantage of economies of scale. They can't do that right now. We would still have the same accountability procedures and requirements as they have now, but probably with less rigid reporting processes. Will you have the transparency, obviously, through our yearly audits? We would ensure that those monies are well spent in the areas where there is most need and for those First Nations.
It's not simply a matter of replacing the federal department. I don't see that happening in the immediate future, but maybe it will. I don't know. Nationally? Who knows?
I can honestly say from what I have seen, that there has been mismanagement at all levels. We have lost a lot of funds from our territory that goes into other southern communities, and it goes to another province because we didn't have the capacity to be ready for our projects, to have them shovel-ready. We are depending on winter roads as the timeframe, and if that's not shovel-ready, that dollar goes south or goes to Manitoba, or wherever.
That is the reality that face, and we think we can do a better job.
Senator Dyck: If I could go to the second part of that recommendation, and you talk about evaluating current structures, urge the government to evaluate current structures. How do you envision that? What does that mean?
Ms. McCraw: When we were looking at making these recommendations — and kind of in response to your first questions — yes, we are saying look at CFISH as the new way of administering those dollars. Secondly, evaluate current structures. There are a lot of organizations right now that are supposed to be serving our First Nations and it's a question of whether or not they are actually functional or operating the way that they are supposed to be to serve our tribal councils. That's what we are saying.
There is money being invested into organizations and that's where a lot of the money gets lost, and we all know how that level works. That's what that recommendation means.
Senator Dyck: You will have to forgive me. I don't know what those other First Nation organizations are.
Mr. Louttit: Let me explain.
Back in the 1980s, the Department of Indian Affairs had a Public Works division. That division was eliminated in favour of setting up First Nation tribal council level technical services. On a regional basis, they established a corporation called the Ontario First Nations Technical Services Corporation. It was mandated to provide the responsibilities of the former Public Works Department within the department.
To this date, we, in NAN territory, have not seen the benefits that that transfer was supposed to have created to improve the situation, not only regionally but at the First Nation level.
So there is this ongoing funding to such organizations that probably have to be reviewed. Within your organization, in this day and age, you have to have your strategic reviews every five years, minimum, to see if you are meeting those changing conditions or not.
Unfortunately, since that transition, we have not seen the benefits to the extent that we had hoped to. That is one example. There are others. I'm not going to name any others, but that particular transfer related to the Public Works Department of Indian Affairs to create this new entity, in my view, has not delivered.
Senator Dyck: If I could continue along with your recommendations, I'm just going to pick two or three.
Recommendation 4: "Urge the government to recognize that Capacity Development at the `local level' is needed before we will see sustainable change." Here, are you recommending, then, that AANDC invest money? Is that what you are getting at here?
Ms. McCraw: We are not suggesting funding. What I'm saying is that we have the capacity to train the people in our communities. At our NAN level, at our PTO level, should have the skills to be able to administer community comprehensive planning or things like this, but we do need to focus in our communities to build them, to build teams.
For example, we have trained housing managers. We are going to probably take a look at those six communities and now train economic development officers and then train lands managers and really build up a team of people at the community level. We then become a liaison between them and government, because that's where things stymie usually.
Senator Dyck: Recommendation 6: "Recommend to government the need for funding for Comprehensive Community Planning — to help a community strategically guide their development."
Ms. McCraw: That's correct.
Senator Dyck: In Recommendation 3, you are talk about addressing the immediate need for water systems to bring them up to the suitable standards. In one of your first slides, you were talking about an immediate need for 1,900 homes and that it was an emergency situation. You were declaring a state of emergency, but yet you don't mention homes in Recommendation 3. You are focused on water. Could you explain why homes aren't mentioned?
Ms. McCraw: I have referred to the boil-water advisories only because of infrastructure; you can't get partnerships to build infrastructure like water pipes. You don't see profit from water pipes.
The reason I didn't put money for houses here is because CFISH and our for-profit branch will address that, and we will begin to create businesses which will create our own homes. There is the ability within our nation to build the homes that we need. It's just a matter of starting and getting everybody to agree to the idea of this for-profit branch and getting our communities on board to start building.
Senator Dyck: Maybe the wording confused me in the initial part of your presentation, because you talk about:
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that all NAN First Nations . . . declare a . . . Housing State of Emergency.
The CFISH, I think, is a great idea, but can that be addressed immediately? I guess that's the question.
Mr. Louttit: The housing?
Senator Dyck: Yes.
Mr. Louttit: It's all encompassing. If you look at housing, it's not just a stand-alone issue. It includes the related infrastructure. For many years, First Nations in the North have just built homes because they didn't have enough capital dollars to build a complete home with complete plumbing, with 200-amp service. They were subjected to 100- amp. These things are all encompassing.
At one point, the province came in, in the mid-1980s. They had a program which allowed First Nations to retrofit all these old homes that were built back in the 1960s and the 1970s. It allowed the First Nations to put in electrical panels that are 200 amps, to put in showers, bathtubs, running water in sinks, in kitchens, and that kind of thing.
The funding that was received by First Nations could not meet all of the health and safety issues that were so dire.
Yes, so in today's situation, if we are going to assist First Nations in their comprehensive planning, it has to be all encompassing, not just building homes, but we are going to ensure that it's connected to the infrastructure systems.
I mean, sure, that's a lot of cost, but we are also faced with First Nations that have limited expansion in residential lots.
You had the Attawapiskat chief here. I don't know if she mentioned it, but in her community, there is an airport, an airstrip 100 yards away from the nearest homes.
What is it going to cost the federal government, the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario to move that airstrip five miles or — I don't know — so that the First Nation can build homes there? That's not going to happen. It's a danger, and the housing is needed, but there is no additional land. We are faced with all of these challenges.
Ms. McCraw: I just want to add to that. The reasoning for starting off with the Resolution 14/40 is that's what mandates us to go forward, and I just want to say that it is a state of emergency. Seventeen people living in one house is unacceptable.
But also, before we can build more houses, we need infrastructure, so that's where I fall back to the need for infrastructure before housing.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: The First Nations communities need land to build their homes. What about Crown land? Wasn't that set aside for Aboriginal people to use at some point? You don't have access to that?
Ms. McCraw: In order to obtain more land, you have to do an addition to reserve process, which takes 10 to 15 years before it actually happens, and by that time, your growth has doubled, tripled.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Thank you.
Mr. Louttit: But you realize that the Crown land, which is designated as reserve, is federal Crown land, and anything beyond that border is provincial, what the province deems as provincial Crown land. But as you heard from our chiefs here, it isn't. According to the treaty, we didn't surrender to the province.
Senator Raine: Thank you again for your good information. It seems to me that one of the challenges facing the First Nation communities and, of course, the Nishnawbe Aski Nation collectively is the lifespan of a home, because if homes can be built so they would last as long as non-reserve homes, it would be better for everyone.
I'm just wondering what you see with CFISH. Will there be some way of working to design homes that are more sustainable; that are using local materials and built in a way that they are easier to maintain and just going down that road?
I also couldn't help thinking that, when you look at the need for comprehensive community planning, an agency that's a little arm's-length from the communities is in a good position to assist because, as somebody always said to me, "When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to plan to drain the swamp."
I saw you nodding, but could you expand on the sustainable home design. What do you envision for that?
Mr. Louttit: There is a lot of housing manufacturers out there. There is a lot of innovative designs. I know, in the Arctic communities, there are challenges there amongthe Inuit, and we have done some research there.
Each community is so diverse and complex in its own right, the environment. You have a community where you can build homes in very dry, sandy conditions. Along the James Bay lowlands, we are building practically in high water tables that are swamp, and that's the reality of the geography.
Our strategy would be to focus on the varying degrees of environmental differences, geological differences, geographical differences in each community. We would have to adapt our housing designs for each situation and, hopefully, the materials will be more durable to ensure that the life cycle of each home will at least meet current standards in the South.
Now, that means a lot of extra cost, higher quality of materials, but I think we can integrate both local materials as well as external materials to create those types of homes that are going to be safe for people to live in. They are going to be warm. They are going to be fire-proof, mould-proof. Mould is one of our biggest problems. Fifty per cent of our units in all the communities are subject to mould. It's particularly so in the James Bay lowlands where I come from as well a some of the Chiefs who have spoken.
That's the reality; yearly flooding. The cost to the government to relocate people during floods is just astronomical. We have to design our homes, our communities to avoid flooding. Flooding is a natural act, but Ontario Hydro does have a lot to do with that in some of these major river systems. We can certainly create solutions that can mitigate those potential negative impacts.
We feel we are onto a strategy that will get us there much sooner than if we relied solely on the federal department to do that for us.
Ms. McCraw: One of the things that CFISH is looking to do, or one of the things we have been identifying is unique, innovative housing. That is, working with the different materials but working with them to then build a plant closer to the North instead of so far south. Akwesasne has been doing some really innovative stuff. CFISH would look at those partnerships in our for-profit branch so that we can help bring on that unique housing.
I also want to say that it's not just that that's going to help houses last longer. It's, again, part of comprehensive planning. It's a community-driven process coupled with education and awareness on how to properly care for your home, those two things combined are going to help extend the length and life of our homes.
Senator Moore: Thank you both for being here.
Maybe you have answered my question. I was shocked to see that the average house only lasts between 15 and 20 years. The house I live in was built in 1946, and I just can't believe that a house normally lasts that short period of time.
Mr. Louttit: There are reasons for that, of course. First of all, there is limited capital to purchase the types of quality durable materials that are required.
On top of that, you are transporting those types of materials over hundreds of kilometres on winter roads, and the First Nations don't always get the best quality from their suppliers. That's something we are looking at. We want to get the best for our people, and I think it's doable.
The Chair: I think maybe I have the last question and then comment. There is no question that there is enthusiasm about your recommendations here amongst committee members. It's welcomed, as Senator Tannas said.
I have one question about that. You represent 49 First Nations, covering a huge area of Ontario, and you are working, effectively, with the agencies whose support you will need, AANDC, CMHC and, hopefully, the First Nations Market Housing Fund.
What about your band members? I see there is a resolution here. I presume that that came from the nation. You would have to consult and win their support as well. Where are you with that, may I ask?
Mr. Louttit: You mean with this concept or the First Nations —
The Chair: With the CFISH. Is it going to be embraced by the member First Nations?
Mr. Louttit: When I first got elected, we received a resolution mandating us to develop and NAN-wide housing and infrastructure strategy, from which this concept has evolved.
Now, we are not going to go back to the chiefs every year to get a renewed mandate, because we feel we have that mandate. We know what the problems are.
It has been embraced, I believe, by the majority of our First Nations. They rely on their tribal councils, and although their tribal councils do have housing and technical service people working for them, they have been cut quite a bit under the recent cuts. Their ability to provide the ongoing services that they did before has been drastically reduced.
We feel that we can assist them. Despite those cutbacks, we think we can come up with innovative strategies on how we can maximize the federal government's investment as well as leverage other sources of financial markets, whether they be banks, the private sector or global markets. I mean, why not issue bonds to create more investment funds?
Ms. McCraw: Can I just comment on that? We have started consultation. I have done it at the tribal council level. We will be presenting this at probably our November chiefs-in-assembly meeting, to get that proper buy-in, if that's the question you are asking.
Yes, everybody is open to it, and with the housing managers training, we had invited First Nations Market Housing Fund to explain to our communities how to properly access the fund, and so we will be working with our communities to help them learn how to use that fund properly.
The Chair: Is this idea emerging anywhere else in the country that you know of? I'm just curious. Are you trail- breakers in this?
Mr. Louttit: We are for the NAN communities.
I just want to share my background. I worked for the Grand Council of Crees in Quebec when they had the Cree Housing Corporation. I don't know if any of you have heard of it, but basically, it is a non-profit housing corporation that did the planning, the financing, and construction of First Nation homes in the eight Cree communities as well as laid water and sewer. We did health facilities, clinics, band offices. I was the Vice-President of Cree Housing. So I know that that particular model worked, and it was very successful.
What we are proposing here is very similar to that. We are adding a non-profit component to it. We are using economic development and housing as a business to leverage more reinvestment into the total project.
So I know it has worked, but our model goes beyond that, and we are hoping that it will be successful. I know it will be. If given the opportunity and the resources, we can make it work.
The Chair: Great. I'm glad you told us about that background. Thank you.
Colleagues, thank you for your attention on a long day.
Once again, to the witnesses, thank you very much for waiting for this opportunity. It has been a very productive day, and I wish to thank everyone.
Ms. McCraw: I would just like to address the committee on one thing. My deputy and my department were only notified last Thursday that we had an opportunity to speak. That communication was not the fault of the clerk of the committee. I found out that we had actually received the invitation July 21, but due to internal communication, it didn't get to our office until last Thursday. I appreciate the time to sit here and speak before your committee.
The Chair: It is very gracious of you to say that. I had interrogated the clerk on this already. It's much appreciated.
With that, thank you again, everyone, for a very productive day.
(The committee adjourned.)