Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs,
Science and Technology
Issue 2 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 28, 1997
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met this day at 10:05 a.m. to appoint a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs.
Senator Lowell Murray (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Order, please. We have a quorum.
Colleagues, since 1981 there has been a subcommittee of this standing committee devoted to veterans affairs. A number of colleagues have indicated to me that they wish to see this subcommittee revived for the present Parliament, and I have convened this meeting for that purpose.
Senator Phillips, do you have a motion to make?
Senator Phillips: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I move:
That a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be established, comprising five members, including the Honourable Senators Jessiman, Phillips, Bonnell, Forest and Cools;
That the subcommittee be empowered to inquire into and report upon such matters as are referred to it from time to time by the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology;
That the subcommittee be authorized to send for persons, papers and records, whenever required, and to print from day to day such papers and evidence as may be ordered by it;
That, pursuant to Section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, the subcommittee's authority to commit funds be conferred on the subcommittee for further delegation at its organization meeting;
That, pursuant to Section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable be conferred on the subcommittee for further delegation at its organization meeting; and
That the power to permit coverage by electronic media of meetings of the subcommittee be conferred on the subcommittee for further delegation at its organization meeting.
The Chairman: Thank you, Senator Phillips. Colleagues, you have heard the motion. Are you ready for the question?
Senator Bonnell: I have two things to say, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the idea of setting up a subcommittee but I sometimes wonder if it would be better to set up a special committee rather than a subcommittee, because many times when you are trying to get someone on the subcommittee as a replacement, you have to hold a committee meeting and get someone put on that committee and then get him or her transferred to the subcommittee, and on short notice that is difficult to do. With a regular or special committee, you can pick and choose senators to serve on the committee, if we are going to Charlottetown or if there is a group of veterans coming from Winnipeg or natives coming from the west. We can consider that.
Second, Mr. Chairman, I do not think we have authority on this committee to have the electronic media come in without permission from the Senate. I think that should be referred to the Senate itself and they should give us permission to have electronic media come into this committee.
In fact, I think we are doing this rather backwards. What we should be doing is having a veterans affairs motion referred to the Senate, then have an order of reference to either a special committee or a subcommittee, and then have a meeting after that. However, you are the Chair. You know the rules quite well.
The Chairman: First of all, it is within the power of this committee to establish a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs or on any other matter within our general mandate. This is the way it has been done, as I said, for the past 16 years.
With regard to television and radio coverage of our deliberations, if the motion moved by Senator Phillips passes, I will be going to the Senate with a motion asking for authorization to permit coverage of our public proceedings with the least possible disruption of our hearings and so on. That will apply to the full committee and to the subcommittee. It will then be up to the full committee and to the subcommittee to decide on what occasions we wish to have or are willing to have electronic media coverage of our deliberations.
Senator Bosa: I wonder if I could ask a question on another point. The proposed committee will be composed of five persons. I understand that the standard subcommittee is composed of seven members. Was it seven members during the last Parliament?
The Chairman: Senator Phillips, do you recall?
Senator Phillips: There were only five members.
I would ask Senator Bonnell, if it was a special committee, how many members would he want on that?
Senator Bonnell: In that case, it would be up to you because you were the chairman the last time. We would take advice from you. We have already heard this morning that you are the most senior senator in Ottawa and we should look to you for leadership.
The Chairman: We do not have the authority to establish a special committee.
Senator Bonnell: The Senate does.
The Chairman: Yes, so you would have to defeat the motion before us or Senator Phillips would have to withdraw it, if it is your wish to proceed with a special committee rather than a subcommittee.
Senator Bonnell, with regard to subcommittees, it has been drawn to my attention that rule 96(5) provides as follows:
Subcommittees shall be composed of not more than half the number of members of a select committee, three of whom shall constitute a quorum.
Senator Bonnell: Is it 12 on the select committee?
The Chairman: Yes, 12 plus the ex officio members.
Colleagues, you have heard Senator Bonnell's views. Are there any further comments?
Senator Forest: Not about that, Mr. Chairman, but I had not been contacted about serving on the committee. I am already on four committees, so I would really need to look at the time frame and so on. If I can manage it, I will, but I would just have that reservation.
The Chairman: I am sure your whip will treat your representations with his usual compassion and understanding.
Senator Phillips: That is part of the problem. Those who are capable get on all these committees.
Senator Bosa: For the benefit of Senator Forest, the names I have submitted this morning are on an interim basis. We can discuss membership on the committee in more detail later among ourselves.
The Chairman: Very well.
Senator Bonnell: I wonder, before you put the vote, Mr. Chairman, if Senator Phillips would consider bringing this up to his caucus when they have their meeting, to see if they would go for a special committee. I will present the idea to our caucus. That would solve the problem Senator Forest has brought up. If we have our own committee, we can pick up senators to substitute quite easily. Perhaps even Senator Murray would be able to serve.
Senator Phillips: In the past, Senator Bonnell, as you will recall, when Senator Graham was chairman of this committee, he came to Charlottetown with us. In general, the whips have been pretty cooperative in filling in with people who want to go. If Senator Forest cannot make it, I see talented people on that side of the chamber who would be able to serve.
The Chairman: I think we are all on the same side when it comes to veterans affairs. Shall I put the motion?
All those in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Colleagues, I now wish for the meeting to go in camera. Before doing so, I may mention that the Liberals have now named their second member of the three-person steering committee, and that is Senator Forest. Congratulations, senator. You will find the meetings of the steering committee quite congenial; Senator Bosa and I see to that. I would now like to go in camera, please, to discuss future business of the committee.
The committee continued in camera.
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 25, 1997
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met this day at 11:02 a.m. to consider the state of health care in Canada concerning veterans of war and Canadian Service persons.
Senator Lowell Murray (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we have two or three matters on the agenda this morning, after which I will suggest that we convene an in camera meeting to discuss future business of the committee.
The first matter on the agenda is a Senate reference of November 5 to this committee that this committee be authorized to examine and report on the state of health care in Canada concerning veterans of war and Canadian Service persons.
Honourable senators will be aware that this reference was passed by the Senate on the initiative of several members of this committee, namely, Senator Bonnell and Senator Ferretti Barth. Senator Phillips is also complicit in this reference. The desire of those senators is that this matter be referred by our committee to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. Accordingly, the chairman would entertain a motion:
That the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs examine and report on the state of health care in Canada concerning veterans of war and Canadian Service persons; that the study concern itself with the availability, quality and standards of health care available to those veterans and Service persons;
That the subcommittee have power to authorize television and radio broadcasting, as it deems appropriate, of any of its proceedings; and
That the subcommittee submit its report no later than June 30, 1998.
Senator Bonnell: I so move, honourable senators.
The Chairman: Is there any discussion?
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the said motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
With regard to this reference, colleagues, a budget for this subcommittee study on the state of health care of veterans has come into my hands, and I have circulated it to you. It is in the amount of $36,710.
Senator Phillips, I assume that this proposed budget has been passed by your subcommittee.
Senator Phillips: It has, yes.
Senator Bonnell: I move adoption of the budget.
The Chairman: Senator Bonnell moves the adoption of the subcommittee budget for the study on veterans' health care specifically.
Colleagues, is there any discussion of this budget or questions you wish to put to Senator Phillips?
Senator Corbin: I am replacing Senator Forest, as you may be aware.
Why is there no provision for interpretation in the budget?
Senator Phillips: We wanted to keep the budget as low as we could.
Senator Corbin: What about witnesses who wish to appear before the committee and senators participating on the committee who want to hear the proceedings in the other official language?
Senator Bonnell: Mr. Chairman, we need interpretation in Montreal. If witnesses speak in French, I will not understand a word they say.
The Chairman: I think the subcommittee is obliged to provide interpretation.
Senator Cools: I thought that was a given with all committees. I did not think we had to adopt a motion to that effect.
I do not think it has to be included, Senator Corbin, in this particular budget.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I think you will find that the cost to the committee budget will be for the travel of these interpreters. They are already provided by the Senate.
Senator Phillips: We may be able to get interpreters in Montreal.
The Chairman: I think we are absolutely obliged by the Official Languages Act to hear witnesses in the official language of their choice. Of course, senators can take part in the official language of their choice. Therefore, it is not an option. From that, I conclude that we must have simultaneous translation at all committee or subcommittee meetings, particularly those held in public.
Senator Bonnell: What about transportation costs?
The Chairman: It will cost the committee the transportation costs and accommodation costs of the interpreters, who would be three in number, I presume.
Senator Jessiman: What about the equipment required?
The Chairman: They bring it with them.
Senator Phillips, I presume this committee will be holding meetings and hearing witnesses.
Senator Phillips: Yes.
The Chairman: Then that is the answer to the question.
Senator Phillips: I do not think we will be hearing witnesses, except in Charlottetown. In the other venues, we will be asking questions at Sunnybrook and Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue.
The Chairman: There will be the cost of equipment rentals, transportation, and accommodation. Does anyone know what we are talking about here in terms of a number?
I am told that to be on the safe side, this budget should be increased by $7,200 for the equipment.
Senator Bonnell: So moved.
The Chairman: Add three more staff for travel.
What is the amount for translation? I am told it is $10,000.
Senator Phillips: Mr. Chairman, we drew up this budget on the basis of a fact-finding mission, and that is why we did not include interpreters. If the committee feels we should take them along, fine.
Senator Bonnell: I think we should add $10,000 to the budget, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: You must have interpretation if these are official proceedings of a parliamentary body.
A fact-finding tour is not necessarily that. However, if you are keeping records, minutes, verbatim transcript, and so forth, and if the public is invited, you absolutely must have interpretation.
Senator Maheu: Even if the public is not there, I would submit that we have senators who are much more at ease in French than they are in English. I do not think we have a choice. I think it should be a given, without discussion, and included in everything.
The Chairman: To be on the safe side, we will budget for that.
Senator Phillips: I have no objection.
The Chairman: We will budget a grand total of $46,710. Your staff or ours will make the necessary changes in the line items.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried. Thank you.
Honourable senators, you are aware that there is also before the Senate another reference that has not been voted on yet. This reference concerns the Canadian War Museum. This motion is now before the Senate under the name of Senator Phillips. The motion is:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology be authorized to examine and report upon all matters relating to the future of the Canadian War Museum, including, but not restricted to, its structure, budget, name, and independence; and
That the committee submit its report no later than March 30, 1998.
That matter is still being debated in the Senate.
Again, I think it was the intention of the mover to propose that the Social Affairs, Science and Technology Committee should refer that reference to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs.
If you wish to refer this matter to the subcommittee, there is a precedent for so doing in advance of the vote being taken in the Senate. The precedent goes back to November 21, 1995, when Senator Phillips, at this committee, moved:
That should the said Report be referred to this committee, the committee refer it to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs for examination.
What is your wish concerning this matter? First, would it be your intention to send this matter to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chairman: All right. Do you want to anticipate an affirmative vote from the Senate by making the same kind of motion?
Senator Bosa: How many tasks are you going to impose on the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs? They have the one that was just carried, which is pretty extensive in that they have to travel.
Senator Jessiman: It is only for three days.
Senator Bosa: Since the Social Affairs Committee does not have anything on its agenda at the present time, should not the Social Affairs committee deal with the matter first?
The Chairman: If you are putting the matter to me, I will not express an opinion on it one way or the other except to say that we do have -- and we will have to deal with it when the committee continues in camera -- the reference on the child support guidelines. We will do that either as a full committee or create a new subcommittee. That will be a decision of the committee to make.
With regard to the Canadian War Museum, you speak of imposing duties on the subcommittee. I suppose we might ask the subcommittee members whether they feel that these two references would overburden them.
Senator Phillips: No, Mr. Chairman. We will be finished any hearings we conduct on the first reference on December 19, 1997. It is then a matter of preparing the report.
On the second subject, I have not made a suggestion to the committee yet. I am waiting for the Senate and this committee to refer the matter to the subcommittee. However, I would suggest that during the Christmas recess we would attempt to find a week when the Senate is not meeting, probably the week of February 1. We would conduct hearings during that week.
I am requesting that time-frame because the subcommittee has no specific meeting time slotted for our work. We are told that all the spaces are taken and that we must have our subcommittee meetings arranged with the committee. It was to be my proposal that we take one week and sit mornings, afternoons and some evenings, if necessary, in order to hear from everyone.
The Chairman: Is there anything further?
Senator Cohen: That sounds reasonable.
Senator Bonnell: I will not be a member of that committee at that time in February. Since the holidays will be under way and many senators will be at home, if the subcommittee wants to work during the holidays, that suits me fine because I will be commencing a long holiday on January 4. It may be better to refer this matter to a subcommittee so that three or four senators could do the work rather than having the members of the main committee return here.
The Chairman: If there is no further discussion on this matter, do you wish to anticipate an affirmative decision by the Senate and move that, should the said motion be passed by the Senate, the committee refer it to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Thank you, senators.
I presume, Senator Phillips, that you will be back at some point with a proposed budget for this study as well.
Senator Phillips: Yes. I do not expect that budget to be very large. If the meetings are held in Ottawa, we will be able to use the interpretation services here and there will be no travel expenses involved; but there may be some payment for witnesses.
Senator Bonnell: If you are to meet day and night, you will have to make arrangements for meals.
Senator Cools: We can plan all that at a later time.
Senator Bosa: I wish to get a brief explanation on the purpose of having such a motion. We stated that if the Senate adopts a resolution and refers it to the Social Affairs Committee, we automatically refer it to the subcommittee. You also added that when the house acts the way we think it will act, the Social Affairs Committee will pass another motion to refer the matter to the subcommittee so that it goes directly to them.
The Chairman: I hope what we have done here is clear. The clerk tells me that November 21, 1995, is a precedent.
Senator Bosa: Can you read that?
The Chairman: This concerned a Report of the Special Commission on the Restructuring of the Reserves. It says:
The Honourable Senator Phillips moved,
That should the said Report be referred to this committee, that the committee refer it to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs for examination.
Senator Bosa: Would you go beyond that? There are some other clauses there.
The Chairman: No, that is it.
I take it that the motion that we have passed is to the effect that should the Senate refer this matter to this committee, it is deemed to have been referred on to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs.
Senator Cools: Yes, that this committee deems that it has been referred to the subcommittee.
Senator Bosa: What if there are other extensions involved?
The Chairman: Then the chairman of the subcommittee must return with a budget. That is another matter.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, is it agreed that we convene in camera to discuss future business of the committee?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The committee continued in camera.