Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 8 - Evidence - May 31, 2016
OTTAWA, Tuesday, May 31, 2016
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 9:08 a.m. to study best practices and on- going challenges relating to housing in First Nation and Inuit communities in Nunavut, Nunavik, Nunatsiavut and the Northwest Territories.
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, either here in the room or via CPAC or the web.
I'm Dennis Patterson from Nunavut, deputy chair of the committee. I have the privilege of presiding as chair today on behalf of Senator Lillian Dyck.
As we continue our study on housing in Inuit communities, I would ask the senators to please introduce themselves.
Senator Moore: Wilfred Moore, Nova Scotia. Welcome to you all.
Senator Beyak: Lynn Beyak, Ontario.
Senator Enverga: Tobias Enverga, Ontario.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas, Alberta.
Senator Raine: Nancy Greene Raine, British Columbia.
The Deputy Chair: Today we are looking forward to hearing from two witnesses as part of our Northern housing study: Natural Resources Canada and the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation.
Please join me in welcoming our first panel representing Natural Resources Canada: Mr. Dean Haslip, Director General, CanmetENERGY-Ottawa, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector; Robin Sinha, Director of Housing, Buildings and Communities, CanmetENERGY-Ottawa; and Ms. Debra Haltrecht, Acting Director, Housing Division, Office of Energy Efficiency.
I believe you have an opening statement, so please proceed.
Debra Haltrecht, Acting Director, Housing Division, Office of Energy Efficiency, Natural Resources Canada: Thank you for inviting us to speak to you today. I will begin the presentation and speak a bit about energy efficiency and programs, and then I will turn it over to my colleague, Dean, who will talk more about technology solutions.
At Natural Resources Canada, we work on energy efficiency across the innovation cycle, so right from research and development through to tools that can help builders and homeowners make informed decisions, to equipment regulations. We also support the National Research Council and the Canadian Commission on Building and Fire Codes in the development of energy efficiency requirements in the National Building Code, and all of these have the objective of trying to reduce energy consumption in Canadian homes.
We set our housing standards at levels above the code to try and encourage increased levels of energy efficiency. Homes built to the ENERGY STAR standard use 20 per cent less energy, and those built to the R-2000 standard use 50 per cent less energy than homes built to the National Building Code.
Please turn to slide number 3.
[Translation]
We also have the EnerGuide rating system, a tool that is used to evaluate a home's level of energy efficiency and that serves as the basis for over 60 programs and regulations. You will find seven in the regions you are studying. In the Northwest Territories alone, retrofit recommendations were made to improve the energy efficiency of 180 existing homes, and 150 newly built homes were rated over the past five years. There is an error on slide 3: it should say 8 builders and not 13.
[English]
On slide four, we have provided you examples of some of the Northern programs that utilize our tools. The examples we've given here are the ones that are probably more applicable to the regions you're specifically looking at, and they range from incentive programs delivered by the Arctic Energy Alliance or by the Government of Quebec through the Rénoclimat program, and they provide incentives for high performance homes and equipment to Yellowknife's regulation, which requires new homes to be built to an EnerGuide 80 level on the EnerGuide scale.
I'll now turn it over to Dean to talk about our technological solutions.
Dean Haslip, Director General, CanmetENERGY-Ottawa, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Natural Resources Canada: Thank you, Debra.
[Translation]
As the chair mentioned, Mr. Sinha and I represent CanmetENERGY-Ottawa, a laboratory within Natural Resources Canada.
[English]
The mission of CanmetENERGY-Ottawa is to lead the development of energy S&T solutions for the environmental and economic benefit of Canadians. What we would like to talk to you about today is the development of some of those solutions.
First, however, I would direct your attention to slide 5, where you can see the key challenge, as we see it, for the introduction of technological approaches in the North. There is often a limited capacity to adapt new approaches and solutions to Northern needs. This can be influenced by the limited availability of builders and skilled trades, and it can also be limited by the availability of technologies that are well suited to the North.
We feel it is our job to work with Northern partners to focus on functional solutions that will work in the harsh northern climate and build the confidence of our local partners in such solutions.
Turning to slide 6, we have our research and development response for NRCan, which is quite simple. First, it is to apply our knowledge, expertise and the research and development tools that we have today for immediate impact for current housing programs; and second, it is to develop new technologies to enable the long-term renewal of Northern housing.
On slide 7, I'm going to describe very briefly one of the projects we have embarked on for accomplishing immediate impact in the North, and that is our collaboration with the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.
The Northwest Territories Housing Corporation has an energy retrofit strategy whereby they're going to invest money in their social housing stock, and they came to us to look for the best options for how they can spend their limited resources. The first thing we did for them is illustrated on the right-hand side of slide 7. It is a very simple analysis looking at a number of possible energy retrofits, which could be the replacement of a furnace, increasing the air sealing of the unit or the replacement of windows. What we were able to do is model a typical house in their social housing stock and show them the kinds of energy savings that could be achieved as a ratio of the investment required to introduce those retrofits, which gives you a very simple payback solution.
On slide 8, though, I think is the next step and the more valuable input we've been able to give to them, and that is to look at combinations of solutions. It's important to understand that when you introduce combinations of technologies in a house, the whole is not equal to the sum of its parts. If you do increased air sealing and also increase the efficiency of the heating plant, the savings you would get from each of those individually is not the same as what you would get when you put them together.
The cloud of points at the bottom of slide 8 is 126,000 possible different combinations of technology retrofits that could have been put into these houses. The point of the slide is simply to show that for a $10,000 investment, which is the typical level that the housing corporation would be looking at, you can put together some combinations that are not very smart and yield an energy savings of only about $180 a year, which is practically nothing.
But on the other hand, if you make the kinds of smart investments that would be the result of paying attention to the simulation and analysis and taking our advice, you could save up to $1,500 a year in utilities, which is approximately a six-year simple payback.
I will turn it over to Robin now.
Robin Sinha, Director of Housing, Buildings and Communities, CanmetENERGY-Ottawa, Natural Resources Canada: If you turn to slide 9, the Rapidly Deployable Northern Housing Project was something we envisioned as a way to enable Northern communities to become more self-reliant. It is a simple standardized design and families will be able to build their homes with the help of the community in roughly two weeks. It's a very energy-efficient design with low heating loads, informed by the simulation tools that Dean talked about, and the homes could even be heated with wood pellets. Throughout process and the design, we were guided by those builders who have been struggling to provide appropriate housing for the North.
Our goal in this project was to develop a solution to address the challenges Dean talked about while employing leading energy efficiency technologies. It's a completely modular 1,000 square foot structure and arrives on our site flat-packed; think of an IKEA flat-packed solution. It was assembled by four untrained labourers in four days. We developed a proprietary fastening system that allows the labourers to build the home without any nails, screws, specialty tools or supervision from skilled tradespeople.
At the same time, it employs an innovative vacuum-insulated panel which provides an R-value 20 times greater than what you might find typically in an insulated foam panel system. It employs a novel modular radiant floor heating system to provide maximum comfort to the home owners, and thanks to the standardized prefabricated modular panels and innovative fastening system, among a number of other innovations, we are optimistic that we can deliver a housing solution for the North at much less than current practice.
We recognize that we still face many challenges for the North. Modern energy-efficient housing is built on a platform of an airtight building envelope. This is important to reduce energy, of course, but it also avoids moisture migrating into the insulation and wall cavity, and this is critical to maximizing durability.
This demands the use of a mechanical ventilation system to provide fresh air and remove polluted air from the home. Typically, we use a heat recovery ventilator to remove that moisture and pollutants and provide fresh air to the occupants. This technology has a proven track record in more temperate climates, but in the North we have seen unfortunate examples of blocked vents from snow accumulation, frozen heat recovery cores caused by moist exhaust air heating the cold fresh air and spin drift, which is fine snow that is blown off by the wind and plugs those supply and exhaust vents.
We have a modest research program working with the National Research Council, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, manufacturers and our housing corporation partners in the North to look at this problem. Potential solutions include improved defrost mechanisms to avoid those frozen cores, protecting the supply and exhaust vents from snow build-up, and actually revisiting the ventilation design specifications to better match the occupancy and moisture loads that we often observe in Northern housing.
Natural Resources Canada is positioned well to provide a national program of regulation and support. We can help leverage private and public sector investment, we can inspire new climate-appropriate technology solutions informed by those who live in the North and align our actions with Canada's environmental commitments.
Mr. Chair, I'll turn the podium back to you. Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. I'd like to begin by asking about the last point that you made, Mr. Haslip.
We are well aware of the problem with the heat recovery systems you've described. We were just in the North, and we saw the accumulation of moisture and mould and the failure of these systems to work, and then people's homemade solutions, including knocking crude holes in walls of houses to try and improve ventilation.
You say that you're working with northern housing corporations on a project in which you're fundamentally revisiting the ventilation design, and you're positioned well to provide a solution. Are you guys really the key to solving these problems across the North? I mean, this is very promising. You're part of the federal family. Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, Aboriginal Affairs and other departments of the federal government are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into housing. There was a big swath in the last federal budget allocating money to housing in the very Inuit regions we are studying.
Are you saying that you're going to lead a revolution in design that is going to fix this problem? If so, we are very pleased to hear it. But you also called it a modest project. We agree that this needs to be fixed. How realistic is it that you guys will be able to lead the charge in revolutionizing? We've heard the private sector isn't doing it. Maybe there isn't a big enough market. We've heard that the necessary R&D is not going on in the private sector. Are you guys going to lead the way?
Mr. Haslip: I will let Mr. Sinha answer the question from a more technical standpoint, but I did want to pick up on the point you just raised, senator, which is because of the small market, this is something that is not typically going to be a major priority for the private sector. Of the many things that the federal government research and development establishment are well suited for, this would be one of them, which would be to target something that is a national priority, but maybe because of market failure or some other reason — for example, small populations — it is not being addressed by the private sector or might be seen by the private sector as too risky to be worth the investment. This is the kind of thing that federal government research and development is good at.
Mr. Sinha: We are not going to do this alone. We pride ourselves here at Natural Resources Canada and CanmetENERGY, together with our colleagues at CMHC and the National Research Council. We are close to the industry. We know the players that are providing the technology solutions, and I think we can work closely with them and our partners in the North, informed by many of the studies you referred to earlier that have identified weaknesses in the technology.
I think we play a role in coordinating the response from a federal government perspective, not just natural resources, to make sure our own resources are leveraged with those of our colleagues in other departments.
We have a number of facilities here in Ottawa that can do preliminary assessment of the technology to see if it can resolve and address some of the problems you have observed in the North, but ultimately we have to stress test these new solutions in the North itself. That takes time. The distances are long, and it is expensive to work in the North, but I think all of us share a genuine desire to provide a good-quality, energy-efficient home that uses an appropriate ventilation system.
The Chair: What are the tools to make this happen? Do you need more funds? Is there a regulatory approach through the building code that can force change? How do we move forward on this very promising initiative you've described?
Mr. Sinha: I think the first step is really to bring together the manufacturers and suppliers of this technology who are providing those solutions to the North. That's the first step. We've done this historically, bringing together manufacturers.
I think there is an appropriate role for establishing a new standard for the performance of these technologies. I still think they reflect southern standards, so there is an opportunity to revisit how these machines are tested. But ultimately there are characteristics in the North that we cannot replicate in a lab in Ottawa or in the South. We need a facility or some way of being able to stress test these technologies before we put them into real homes and into the hands of the housing corporations that are delivering these programs.
Those are some of the first steps that I think we can stimulate and be a catalyst for. Ultimately, it has to come from a demand or a need from the people in the North who are trying to provide solutions for homeowners.
Senator Enverga: Good morning. Thank you for the presentations. I understand that the Canada Centre for Mineral and Energy Technology, Canmet, is under your auspices. I'm interested in your rapidly deployable house. Can you tell us more about it? Have you tested it? If so, what were the results?
Mr. Haslip: I'll take that one, for starters. The rapidly deployable northern house was a project that we started two years ago. We constructed it on our own site, the CanmetENERGY Ottawa laboratory. We use it as a living lab, an alternative energy lab. The people who designed that house use it every day as their office space so that they're actually living in it, finding out what the issues and concerns might be and developing the plan as they go forward.
They have been in the house for two years this coming weekend, and we see great promise, frankly. We see the obvious benefits in terms of energy efficiency, modularity of construction and the ability to put the structure together quickly without the use of tools, fasteners or specialized trades, and frankly, the reduced costs over conventional stick- built homes.
We see the benefits, so what we are doing right now is pursuing opportunities with other partners, some of them in the federal government and some of them outside the federal government. We are also starting the process of licensing the intellectual property so we can have private sector agents who are able to deliver that solution on a commercial basis for communities in the North or remote communities of any sort, frankly. It could also be used in disaster response or mining camps, for example, anywhere you have a requirement for housing to go up quickly, possibly to be self-sufficient, possibly to deliver a significant energy efficiency savings and possibly also to be able to take it down afterwards with minimal footprint.
Senator Enverga: Can you tell me more about how it looks, how it is different or similar to a regular house? You know there are a lot of issues with regard to a lack of housing. Would this be able to solve our housing crisis in the North?
Mr. Haslip: I wouldn't go so far as to say this one technological solution is going to solve the housing crisis in the North. However, what I would say is that we appreciate that some of the problems in the North — and I think Robin talked about these in the opening remarks — are due to a short construction season, a lack of skilled trades and the cost is high. Getting all your materials and workers up to the North is expensive in and of itself. Then once you're there, you have a very harsh climate and the cost of energy is high.
What we have delivered is a modular solution that's flat-packed. As Robin said, it arrives like an IKEA product. This 1,000 square foot house arrives in four 20-foot shipping containers. The design itself was shaped by the necessity to be able to put it into these four shipping containers.
We are making very effective use of space. The walls are very thin because of the fact that we use vacuum insulation. You can put lots of insulation in a wall and make it very big and thick, but that's not the kind of thing you want to do if you're trying to put all this into a shipping container or ship it long distances.
What we have provided is a very thin wall that still delivers very high values of insulation. Once you're inside this building, you are effectively inside a Thermos. It delivers high levels of insulation and allows you to heat the home with relatively modest energy inputs.
On top of all of this, we were able to deliver this particular solution for something around $175 per square foot, which we feel is significantly less than what you would be looking at if you were trying to build a conventional house in the North today.
Senator Enverga: You mentioned you have only tested it in Ottawa. Ottawa is cold sometimes, but have you tried to test somewhere else, like Nunavut?
Mr. Haslip: At this stage, senator, we have only the one house. We have constructed it in Ottawa and we are using it as a living lab. We have made a series of modifications so that we have a sort of mark 2 version that's ready to build and construct. We are working with several partners to look for opportunities to build in the North and test it.
As Robin was saying about the heat recovery ventilators, we have no desire to try an untested solution with a family in the North. We want to look for opportunities with mining camps or community buildings where, were there to be a failure, we are not going to be putting a family out in the cold.
Senator Enverga: Is there any timeline for this? When will it be deployable in the North?
Mr. Haslip: We are ready to go now with version 2. We are working through the licensing process, and the negotiations with partners will take as long as the partners want it to take. We are ready to go now.
Senator Enverga: Can you tell me what it will cost?
Mr. Haslip: It's approximately the same. We are looking at $150 to $175 per square foot.
The Deputy Chair: Would that include transportation costs?
Mr. Haslip: That does not include transportation costs.
The Deputy Chair: Have you got a detailed written report on this project that could be shared with the committee?
Mr. Haslip: Yes, we do, and we could share that.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you.
Senator Moore: Thank you, witnesses, for being here. You've been looking at this issue for two years?
Mr. Haslip: Yes.
Senator Moore: Where were you before that? How is it that Natural Resources is even doing this? We have CMHC and other federal agencies, but now you come along and you've got the answer here. It's been two years, and you've got intellectual property. You're going to license to the private sector, which might want to buy it and go build a house. I don't get it. This has been a long-standing issue. What did you do? Did you go to the North? When did you do it, and how did you get this information? All I'm hearing is there was test run here in Ottawa.
Mr. Haslip: As I said at the outset, CanmetENERGY-Ottawa is an energy research and development organization, and the largest one in Canada. The lab in Ottawa works in energy research and development across the spectrum, from production of energy, whether it's fossil fuels or renewables, all the way through to the utilization of energy, whether in industry, housing or transportation.
We have a number of scientists and engineers who work here in Ottawa and who are expert in the built environment, design, modelling and the simulation of buildings themselves, and also of the heating plants and whatnot that go inside.
Senator Moore: Could you please tell us when you were in the North, what communities you visited, who you interviewed and what you learned?
Mr. Haslip: I cannot provide you an exhaustive list of that. What I can tell you is that we do have people on our staff who work very closely with the Northern housing corporations. I talked about one of our projects with the Northwest Territories. We have also worked with the Yukon Housing Corporation and private-sector builders in the North. We've developed design guides for improving the energy efficiency of Northern housing and have done that through workshops in the North.
When we designed this specific Northern house, we did not fabricate all of the panels and all of the components of that house. The builders that we worked with had experience with Northern construction projects.
Senator Moore: I'm interested in your comment that, "This will be like living inside a Thermos.'' That's not very appealing to me. We were there, and a big issue is not living inside a Thermos but having fresh air and proper ventilation. I don't understand this. A sealed unit, is what it is. They'll be putting in igloo holes so they have some fresh air. You should go talk to the people.
The Deputy Chair: I think you were referring to the insulating qualities of the walls when you talked about the Thermos, but you also talked about the need to do a radical redesign on the heat recovery ventilation systems. Were those concerns incorporated into the rapidly deployable unit as well?
Mr. Haslip: That's an excellent question. You're right. When I talk about being inside a Thermos, it is simply from the standpoint of an insulating value. While living inside a Thermos maybe doesn't sound that attractive, it certainly does if you're talking about the heating loads you have to deal with.
The unit that we have today does not involve heat recovery ventilation. In fact, what we do in summer or winter, in the middle of the day, is simply open the doors for a little while and let some fresh air in and then close it back up again. However, as Robin pointed out in his opening remarks, we are working on solutions for heat recovery ventilation that we would intend to retrofit into the next design.
The Deputy Chair: Will that be in what you called the version 2?
Mr. Haslip: That, or a subsequent version.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much. It is really good to hear from people who are doing some innovative research on these projects.
On page 7 you have a payback chart. We had the impression that housing in the North and in many First Nations communities doesn't last 20 years, so having any payback that's more than few years is probably not a good investment. It's a very challenging environment in terms of applying normal parameters.
All of us who went on the study tour to Nunavut were so taken by the knowledge of the people living there in coming up with innovative ways of making things that came from the South work in the North. It is great to look at things like windmills, but what happens if the wind doesn't blow? You can't take that risk when you have a climate where it's minus 30 or 40 degrees. Sometimes I think we have to look backwards to look forwards.
I know you've done work in the Northwest Territories. My understanding is that in many communities there, they are living in the forested land. If you look around and see what houses have stood the test of time, you will find log homes or cabins that are still there and still habitable, yet I know the log-building industry is running into difficulties because their way of fabricating homes does not meet the National Building Code. The code has become an obstacle.
Yes, it's nice to have everything sealed up, but if you have to open the window, maybe it's better to have the houses leak a bit. There are definitely condensation issues that are completely different between drywall and wood, which absorbs some of the humidity.
I would look for some assurance. In your research, are you researching the past as well as the future to see whether there are some traditional dwellings that can be looked at and maybe considered as part of the solution?
Mr. Haslip: I'll take a couple of those, and maybe I'll turn to Debra and Robin to see if they have any other thoughts.
The first thing you talked about was payback, and you're right. I'll take an extreme example. If you look at that chart on slide 7, the three items at the bottom are all window replacements. The paybacks are incredibly long for the window replacements, 55 years up to over 120 years. You're right that the harsh climate and other factors lead to a situation where housing in the North doesn't last as long as housing in the South. However, if a window breaks, you need to replace it.
The payback is a way of showing you how good an investment it is and how quickly you're going to recoup your investment. For example, if a window breaks and you need to replace it, this analysis says you should go with window A and not window C or B because you will get the most bang for your buck there. I don't want to lead you down the road of saying that if the house is only going to last X years, you should never consider anything that has a longer payback, because sometimes you need to replace things and you need to have that mindset.
The next point that I will talk about is you talked about what happens when the wind doesn't blow. Likewise, there are more and more communities in the North that are looking at solar, which is a fantastic solution during the long summer days but not a great solution in the winter when the sun isn't shining. I think that one of the keys when we are looking at solutions for the North is resiliency, whether it's resiliency in the housing or resiliency in the energy solutions themselves. If you're going to introduce a new technology into the North for providing power to homes and communities, you want to make sure that technology has adequate backup or is sufficiently tested that a single critical failure isn't going to lead to dark, cold nights.
For example, on the energy side, we have been looking in the past at biomass gasification, but the idea is that it feeds into an existing diesel generator set so that you're not introducing a completely new energy solution into the community. You are introducing something that will be able to produce clean fuel, which feeds into an existing diesel generator so that you can have your backup diesel set the way you always have.
I'll turn to my colleagues to see if they have any comments to make on building code and log-built houses.
Mr. Sinha: I just want to assure the committee that our tenet and philosophy has always been to be informed by the people who live in the North. It is not our philosophy to introduce or throw technologies from the South to the North. I think it's a philosophy we share with our colleagues at National Research Council, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and all the other federal departments who have a shared interest in improving the quality of housing in the North. Our role is in part to inspire and act as a catalyst of ideas that may be considered but hopefully, and the intent is, to adapt those solutions appropriately for the Northern application.
In terms of building codes, I am aware that there is discussion about developing an appropriate building code for the North that is reflective of the conditions and the harsh climate and demographics of the North. We could certainly get back to the committee in terms of how active that is and who is leading that initiative.
The Deputy Chair: Just what is your role in relation to the National Building Code, please? Who is the ultimate authority?
Ms. Haltrecht: For our role within the National Building Code, we provide support specifically on energy efficiency requirements. It's not the greater National Building Code. The National Research Council of Canada is the secretariat for the National Building Code, and it's actually developed and run through the Canadian Commission on Building and Fire Codes. When they started looking at putting energy efficiency requirements for houses in the code, we brought along from NRCan expertise on energy efficiency, and we provided them with some funding. It still ran through the complete process for developing codes that the Canadian Commission on Building and Fire Codes run. We just sat on their committees and helped them out with that development.
The Deputy Chair: Before I turn to Senator Watt and Senator Beyak, I did ask about the adequacy of funding and I think you described it as a modest project. Can you be candid with us about the cost of what you're doing and whether you're getting adequate support for what seems to us to be important work?
Mr. Haslip: I think the level of funding that's assigned to research and development in the government is more of a policy question and not one that I would be comfortable talking about here.
The Deputy Chair: Can you tell us what sort of budgets you have, now or later?
Mr. Haslip: We could certainly get back to you with the budget on that project, yes.
Senator Moore: Can't he tell us now? It's the people's money. What the hell is this? Why can't you tell us now? This money belongs to the people of Canada. This is not a policy secret. The chair asked a reasonable question. You should be able to answer that. What the hell is this?
The Deputy Chair: I was just following up on your reference to what I think you described as a modest project revisiting ventilation design. Are there more resources needed to make this more than a modest project? I guess that's what I was getting at.
Mr. Haslip: One can always make more progress on a project with greater resources. I just wanted to follow up on the senator's question. There is no policy secret about what the budget is. I simply do not have at my fingertips the budget for that specific project. The policy question, I think, is about what is the balance of funding to that priority versus other energy research and development priorities.
The Deputy Chair: We would appreciate some details on the budgets, the amount of funds that are allocated to all these initiatives, and I think I did ask earlier for a description of your work.
Mr. Haslip: Absolutely.
The Deputy Chair: All of that would be welcomed by the committee.
Senator Watt: Thank you for your presentation. I came in a bit late so I didn't get to hear what you had to say in your opening remarks, but when I walked in, it seemed to capture the question of, who are we dealing with here? Is this representing Natural Resources Canada or are you also representing the private sector? I'd like to have the answer to that question first.
Mr. Haslip: We are all public servants. We are all employees of Natural Resources Canada.
Senator Watt: But the department seems to have made up its mind that you do have the solution to the problems we've been dealing with over the years. Is that correct?
Mr. Haslip: Our business in the research and development arm of the department is to develop solutions. We presented here today a couple of possible solutions from the standpoint of housing construction and also some early- stage ideas on how to improve heat recovery ventilation, for example, as well as the work we are doing with Northern housing corporations and others in the North to make sure the housing stock, particularly the social housing stock, is as energy efficient as it can be. We are not saying we have the solution for housing in the North, but we are saying that we have something that we can offer.
Mr. Sinha: The work we had proposed in this project for the ventilation is informed by all of the work and research that has been done in the last several years on ventilation systems and heat recovery ventilation systems. We think we have identified some of the potential problems with this particular technology. Things like defrost controls may be one of the reasons why some of these systems fail. The issues of where the vents are located have demonstrated that they are part of the problem. Our research program is intended to try to develop alternative solutions to address some of those problems that have been informed by the past research.
The Deputy Chair: I think Senator Watt was referring to you licensing your designs and working with the private sector to license them. Could you give us more detail on that relationship, please?
Senator Watt: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the fact that you raised those.
I imagine Natural Resources Canada is an agency supported by the government. This project you think very highly of is answering the problems that we've been having over the years. Is it driven by the private sector and not by Natural Resources Canada? I'm getting a mixed signal from you when you explained at times that you think you're representing the private sector. On the other hand, we know for a fact that you're representing an agency of the government. I'm a little bit puzzled there.
Mr. Haslip: I'm not sure I've understood the question.
Senator Watt: The question is very clear. Why are you supporting this particular project that is driven by the private sector rather than making this information available to us so we can take a good look at it, in-depth, and make decisions accordingly? You seem to be pushing along the lines saying, "We do have the answers; we'll be able to fix your problems.'' That's what I'm hearing.
Mr. Haslip: One of the roles of federal research and development, whether it's in the energy space or the housing space or the defence space, is to investigate or to do research and development in areas where, for one reason or another, the research is not taking place in the private sector. Perhaps it is a case where there are insufficient financial motivations or market pressures to drive the private sector in a particular direction and additional research is required. Perhaps it's a situation where the amount of risk that's there is high enough that the private sector is not willing to invest and it takes federal research to develop those technologies and de-risk them to the point where the private sector is willing to invest.
We are investigating technologies such as those we've discussed this morning. We are trying to bring them along the technology-readiness scale to a point where the private sector is ready to take these up and do them. Natural Resources Canada is not equipped to be able to do the fabrication to deliver these solutions to Northern communities. That has to be done in concert with private sector delivery agents. So we see our role as developing the technologies to the point where the private sector is going to be able to bring them to Northern communities.
Senator Watt: Does that really require your agency to have it certified, also going as far as the licensing? What are you doing in that field?
Mr. Haslip: By law, the Public Servants Inventions Act says that when people in the employ of the federal government develop intellectual property, it belongs to the Crown, so if we want people in the private sector to be able to deliver that solution, it has to be done through a licensing arrangement.
Senator Beyak: Thank you for your presentations and thank you for the slides. I live in northwestern Ontario, so I can certainly relate to the clogged vents and frozen exhaust. It's far more challenging in the Far North; I realize that.
Does your research project include a practical side where you're keeping notes on the research for maintenance? Teaching people how to clear some of this stuff on their own is important too. As you find flaws in the project, is there a side that's keeping practical notes there?
Mr. Sinha: Thank you very much for the question. Yes, very much so. We are always cognizant that, in the end, people have to maintain these systems. We are always asking the question: How will this be maintained over the long term? That will be part of the criteria in the metric of success of a new solution.
Senator Beyak: Anybody else?
Mr. Haslip: I think Robin got it.
The Deputy Chair: I'd like to ask a question about permafrost that hasn't come up. We've heard that some communities are lacking sufficient data on permafrost to support land use planning and that this lack of information has led to damaged infrastructure due to buildings being constructed on melting permafrost. Have you done research on that issue? Has there been any information shared on permafrost with Northern communities? We did hear of some work done by Laval University and Memorial University, but I'm wondering if that is an area that you have also researched.
Sharon Smith, Permafrost Research Scientist, Earth Sciences Sector, Natural Resources Canada: I work in the Geological Survey of Canada, which is part of Natural Resources Canada. We do have an active permafrost research program. I myself am a permafrost research scientist.
We have worked in all regions of Canada. We have a national permafrost monitoring program where we measure permafrost temperatures throughout the North. Some of these monitoring sites do happen to be in Northern communities. During the International Polar Year, we were able to establish some in a suite of communities in the Baffin region. The information collected from those sites was published in our own publication series. That's readily available for free download. We have made that information available to the territorial governments.
We have people working on doing regional mapping of permafrost in the Northwest Territories, in the Slave Geological Province, in an area where there's a lot of resource activity. I've done a lot of research in the Mackenzie Valley, which again is an important transportation corridor, where we've collected information on the properties of the ground, the temperature of the ground and so forth. Some of that work is done in collaboration with the territorial governments and universities, some of which you've already mentioned.
The Deputy Chair: Ms. Sharon Smith is now an additional witness who has appeared before our committee. She is a Permafrost Research Scientist from the Earth Sciences Sector of Natural Resources Canada.
Senator Enverga: Just a supplementary question: Now that you have a lot of information in regard to permafrost, have you found any particular regions where housing might be affected due to permafrost? Have you found anything like that?
Ms. Smith: Whether or not housing or infrastructure in general will be vulnerable to permafrost thawing depends on the characteristics of the ground itself. In areas where there's a lot of ice in the ground, if that ice should start to melt, then you can have shifting of the ground. That can damage foundations and so forth. Back in the mid-1950s, we became more aware that permafrost must be taken into account when constructing buildings. We have various techniques we use. Whether or not you're vulnerable depends on how the structure is built and what you're built on. Sometimes if you're on very ice-rich material and you have a very shallow foundation and you haven't allowed for the shifting, you can have troubles.
There have been areas where we have seen some problems, and problems in highways as well. As for specific examples, I could probably get back to you on that, but I can't think of any specific ones right off the top of my head.
Senator Enverga: What I was thinking is it's readily available, but have you issued some sort of warning to any particular place where you say, "Hey, there is a lot of permafrost there; is there a way you can move out or do something more about it?'' Can it be that kind of thing?
Ms. Smith: We have not issued warnings. I'm not sure that that's probably my job or our group's job. But we have done terrain sensitivity mapping to try and identify areas that may be more at risk of permafrost thaw. Some of these types of mapping projects have been at a community scale.
We have one example of colleagues that work with the folks at Laval, at the Iqaluit airport, for example, collecting data to map out surficial geology and do a hazard map for the airport. Others have been done along highway corridors. We have done that type of work, which can then inform the decisions that you make in terms of building or adapting buildings for changing permafrost conditions.
The Deputy Chair: We did hear from Dr. Trevor Bell, whom you may well know, that this aspect of permafrost is an essential part of the planning process for building successful housing in permafrost regions. What would the committee recommend to ensure that this happens across the regions where need this to be done? What would be the way of making this happen?
Ms. Smith: Well, you're quite right, senator. Permafrost is the foundation for all building in a large part of the North because it is the ground. It is the earth materials.
As we go into regions where we have very little information on the properties of ground, we need to collect that information. It may be doing regional studies to produce permafrost maps or terrain sensitivity maps that I've talked about.
The Deputy Chair: Who would do that?
Ms. Smith: At a regional scale, that is more the type of work that we do. At a site-specific scale, it's more in the engineering design phase, where they will do site-specific studies for particular structures themselves in detail.
There are different levels of studies that can be done. There are efforts to come up with guidelines and how you may carry these types of studies out. I was involved in one with the Canadian Standards Association. I think a few weeks ago you had the folks talking about the northern standards initiatives. It's probably not all one group's responsibility.
The Deputy Chair: But there is a role for Natural Resources Canada.
Ms. Smith: Yes, and we are playing that more at a regional scale.
Senator Raine: We have had some interesting testimony during this study. A few weeks ago, a company was proposing to airlift fully built modular housing to the North with huge big airships like the Hindenburg, but these are the size of a football field.
When I look at them, there are lots of different ways to use creativity and technology to help get the solutions to the North, but a house is not a home. For people to live in a house that comes flat packed in a box, as this rapidly deployable house is, you still need the beds, sheets, linens, bathtubs and all of the things that go in a house to make it a home and make it habitable, and there are no stores in the North. I think it's a good idea, and the technology that you're finding in terms of building the insulated panels is probably very applicable for use in other solutions.
Has there been, over the last 10 years, any coming together of modular manufacturers with your group to talk about technology? At the same time, if you're going to have a conference like that or a coming together, I think it would be very valuable to bring in people who work in the maintenance of homes in the North, because they certainly see the weaknesses.
I would just like to ask you to comment on that. Is the technology that you've discovered to do with the insulation and panellization transferable to a house that would be shipped up whole?
Mr. Sinha: Certainly the technologies that we have explored with the rapidly deployable housing are applicable to many forms of housing and not limited to our particular solution. Our role in part is to recognize there may be a better solution to modular housing that could actually reduce costs and, by virtue of that, make more resources available to buy the sheets and the other elements that go into a house. You're actually reducing cost on the capital, and there is more disposable income to the housing corporation service providers so they can provide those funds for those other services. That was our main motivation.
The technologies and ideas are simply a foundation upon which other applications could be done with other modular providers. We have not, to my knowledge, at least in recent memory, assembled all the prefabricated manufacturers. That is certainly an interesting idea. There are forums in the North where I think we could bring those people together, and I respect your point about bringing in the maintenance people as well. It's a very important element.
Senator Raine: As we prepare our report, it's nice to compare cost solutions. Could you give us the cost to ship four 20-foot containers to a site? Also, does your rapidly deployable northern house include the foundations or the structure that it sits on on the ground? If we talk about $175 per square foot, we need to know the plus, plus, pluses so we get to the final cost.
Mr. Sinha: I certainly don't have the specific costs of the transportation. It obviously depends on where you're shipping it to. The whole idea was to try and maximize, as Mr. Haslip said, those shipping containers, get as much product and housing up in the North to be able to put more housing per season schedule by virtue of flat packing and putting them into the containers. That was the one motivation.
In terms of the foundation, the rapidly deployable did include an innovative foundation system. It may be hard to see in the visual, but it is a system that our engineers identified as potentially addressing a foundation problem and, to some degree, some of the permafrost issues as well.
Senator Raine: Looking at the photograph that you've given us here, would this 1,000-square-foot house have only one entrance or would there be two, and would they be double so that you don't just open into the outside?
Mr. Sinha: The actual design does have that sort of sealed entryway before you get into the main part of the building.
The nature of the design in the panels is that all are identical panels, other than one is opaque and one has a window. You have a tremendous flexibility in terms of the number of openings and where they are located. You can have one, two or many. So it does try to respect some of those challenges of having easily replaceable parts, flexibility in design to accommodate architectural design, and some of the entryway topics that you talked about as well.
Senator Raine: Would you be able to send us some drawings of the floor plans or layouts for the interiors?
Mr. Sinha: We certainly can.
Senator Raine: If you don't mind, I'd like to go back to the heat recovery ventilation issue, because this is an issue that is contributing to mould, illness and sickness in northern housing. I think it's critical that all the brainpower in your organization focus on this, perhaps without the Southern perspective, because when we have a 1,000-square-foot house in the South, it might house two to four people, but it the North, it could house 10 to 12. So the amount of heat that the bodies generate and the moisture is not being dealt with.
We also know it becomes very annoying when you have a loud fan going, and you're burning up electricity to run the motor on the fan. Sometimes the systems work in theory but, in practicality, they don't work.
We were shown what they called an "Eskimo hole.'' This was the local people fixing it themselves by putting a hole through the wall, and they located it so that the draft around the building helped work for the air vent. When it was really cold, they stuck a sock in it. Those houses did not have their doors all iced up. In the houses with the Southern solution, the doors were iced up.
I would implore you to really be innovative to come up with some solutions. It's pretty urgent. Thank you.
Mr. Sinha: Thank you, senator. I want to assure you that we collectively — not only Natural Resources Canada but our colleagues at National Research Council and Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation — all share your concerns and desire to find an appropriate ventilation system so we can provide people living in the North with a good- quality, healthy home.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. I think that wraps it up. I have one very specific question before we close: Is the vacuum insulation in the thin-walled panels a new innovation that you folks have licensed as intellectual property? I don't know if we've heard of this before.
Mr. Haslip: We did not invent the concept of vacuum insulation. In this instance, we worked with a private-sector partner to show how vacuum insulation could be delivered into a modular construction so that it could be used in a house.
You can imagine that if you're trying to maintain a vacuum in a wall panel, this is not something you want to be trying to do on site, whether in the South, the North or anywhere else. We have shown how you can build a structural panel in a factory that will hold a vacuum and have this tremendous insulating potential, and we have put that together into a housing construction.
Senator Moore: I have a supplementary. A house has got to be a home. Can you put a couple of tacks on the wall and hang a picture without violating the process?
Mr. Haslip: Absolutely. Part of the concern with developing a vacuum insulation solution is that you don't want to have a vacuum with two thin strips, because the whole thing would be shot in no time. We have developed a wall panel that allows you to do exactly what you've talked about while still maintaining the integrity of the structural panel.
The Deputy Chair: I would like to thank our witnesses from Natural Resources Canada for what they have provided us today and what they will provide further on. This has been most enlightening.
We now have the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation appearing by video conference, and the corporation is represented by its Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Duane Ningaqsiq Smith.
Colleagues, before we bring Mr. Smith in by video conference, I would like to inform you we have received a brief in English just yesterday, which we've obviously not have time to translate. We do have copies here. I'd like to ask the committee: Would you be agreeable to distributing the brief in English only on the understanding that we'll have it subsequently translated? Could I get your agreement on that? Thank you, and we will circulate that brief.
I would like to congratulate Duane Ningaqsiq Smith for your election as Chair and Chief Executive Officer of the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation. Thank you for joining us this morning from Inuvik, I believe. Mr. Smith, please proceed with your presentation. You can expect some follow-up questions from the senators. The floor is yours, sir.
Duane Ningaqsiq Smith, Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Inuvialuit Regional Corporation: Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to present before the committee.
I hope to have a lot of dialogue with you. My presentation will be very brief, because I think we will get a better understanding from having a discussion between each other that would be much more informative than me just presenting to you.
I'm not sure everybody is aware where I reside, but I live in the far northwest portion of Canada. It's only nine hours by jet from Ottawa. You're welcome to come and visit at any time.
I understand you're doing a review of housing within the Arctic, and we welcome this. It's long overdue.
I apologize for getting my presentation to you so late that you couldn't get it translated in time, but I hope it provides some background information to some degree in relation to the housing issues that are reflective of the needs within my region within the Inuvialuit Settlement Region of Canada.
I also want to state that in regard to this, just geographically alone, where we reside, the effort and contribution that we make on this issue with the various levels of government, including the federal government, also reflects on the sovereignty issue. I can't emphasize that enough, just because of the geographical location where we reside.
Yes, I am in Inuvik. I live just east of the northeast tip of Alaska, for those of you who are not familiar with this area. There are about 6,000 residents within this region.
You have asked me to speak about three issues, but I also noted during the previous discussions that you went into other issues that I feel are just as crucial if not more so on some of the matters that you're trying to get a better understanding of. I'd like to have a discussion about those as well.
With the previous comment, I don't want to get into any discussion too much about it, but it is a sensitive term that gets used, and I'd prefer not to see it being used, especially at this level, in regard to our identity. What was being discussed is called kingaq in our language. It is a vent that allows hot air to get out.
In regard to the overview on some of these matters, of course we are looking at the size of the houses not meeting the requirements of the communities, and they're designed and all done by southern architects and designers. I was listening in on your discussion about permafrost matters. All of the architecture and planning for that type of stuff is done by architects who, in most cases, have limited knowledge, if any, with regard to construction on permafrost, on which my area totally resides. We do see a lot of shifting, a lot of upheaval, a lot of melting and a lot of erosion.
I bring that part up, especially the erosion, because we are actually dealing with one of our communities more specifically having to plan to relocate further inland. That's lifting up your houses, et cetera, moving further back inland because the shoreline or the ground under them is actually washing away.
In regard to the housing standards and the quality, again, that's an area that needs to have some improvement. There have been some new technologies that have come through in recent years that have improved the quality, but it's still done in isolation of cultural aspects, northern needs and that sort of thing.
As well, I don't see any area where there is any discussion or consideration but I did hear you get into it in regard to the health aspect because of the quality or lack thereof of housing throughout the Arctic where there is overcrowding, emerging tuberculosis in some communities because of that, respiratory issues, mental illness due to the overcrowding, as well as the lack of space for the kids to do their homework. Those are all issues to be taken into consideration when you're designing homes, and I just leave that with you.
In regard to the legacy of poor choices, I won't get into detail about that because I think one of the reasons we are having this discussion today is because of the lack of quality of houses throughout the Arctic. I don't need to get into the numbers of requirements for housing through Canada's Arctic because I think you have better data than I do on the needs within each specific region.
In regard to building on permafrost again, because my region is solely living on permafrost here, we have adapted to some degree in regard to how we build our housing, which is mostly above ground and off of the permafrost. Those are usually called pilings. Traditionally they've been done with wood, but the latest is to move to steel because the wood eventually erodes. We have had building foundations rot from underneath people's houses, and they have basically collapsed.
Some of the interior of the houses can be better designed to meet different cultural needs. I am of the opinion that to build the houses up here — I think you know the term — build it like a brick you know what, because the more you invest in the short term in the quality and stability of the house, the less it's going to cost in the long term. That's a well- proven fact in the Arctic. I heard one of the senators making reference to how difficult it is to get the materials and equipment to maintain and upkeep a house, so the more you initially build with quality and sturdiness, you're saving so much more in the long-run.
In regard to the cost, where I reside we have a highway at present, but the majority of materials still are provided by barging or shipping. I think most of you may be aware that we are also completing a highway right to Canada's other coast within my region, which is supposed to be completed next year so we do have almost year-round access to re- supply half of my communities within this region on a regular basis.
In regard to the affordability, again, just due to the geographical location and the high costs of just trying to stimulate or start up an economy, it makes it very difficult for anyone to afford a house within this region due to the lack of consistent employment.
In regard to the buildings in the Arctic, obviously you're well aware of the geographical differences. The four Inuit regions cover 40 per cent of Canada's land mass alone. My area is about 900,000 square kilometres, and it's just one part of the Northwest Territories, just to give you some context in regard to the vastness and the remoteness of getting this type of material and this type of housing within this part of Canada's Arctic.
The housing market is very limited. It exists in certain pockets, in certain communities throughout the Arctic, but again, most of the communities are small, isolated, with limited opportunity for long-term employment. So there is no real market within Canada's Arctic because of that.
The public housing that was transferred to the Northwest Territories back in the 1980s has had, I would say, limited success, and that's reflective of this discussion that we are having at this time again as to why there's been limited success.
Again, I have stated and reiterated to the various federal ministers I've met with that we are appreciative of the funding that's been allocated specifically to the Inuit of this region or in this case the Inuvialuit within my region. We've had that specifically identified for Inuit housing in previous years, but when it came down to the applicability and the implementation of that housing that was supposed to go to those Inuit regions, it got lost in the bureaucracy, and a lot of the housing that was supposed to be developed and provided to the Inuit communities never actually reached those communities.
We are hopeful that in this case there is a process to ensure that the funding that's allocated specifically to the Inuit regions for Inuit housing is applied for that purpose, and we would like to work in regard to that so that it's a proactive win-win situation but also meets the cultural and community needs from our perspective.
[Editor's Note: The witness spoke in his Native language.]
I would like to get into some discussion, if you want, so we can get a better idea of the housing issues needs in my region.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Duane, and also for your comment on the correct terminology we should be using — kingaq. That's something we will note. I think Senator Raine was quoting what we were told by an Inuk in Iglulik as to how we should describe that particular innovation, but thank you for the correction on the terminology and for your presentation.
Senator Watt: Good morning, Duane. It is nice to see you again. Even though you're not here, we are able to see you. That's great.
Getting back to the point of what you have indicated in your brief, wanting to see that money flowing directly into the hands of the regions, into your hands, you feel that you are more capable of dealing with the consequences or the solutions that we are searching for if it's in your hands and looking at the engineering side, the architectural side and even the design side to make it a better fit for your community and for your people.
I would imagine — and you say it here in your brief — that you would like to see that money going directly into your hands so you'll be able to work with the federal government directly on the matter. I assume that you're still at that stage. Am I correct on that?
Mr. Smith: Thank you, senator. It's good to see you as well.
In regard to that, if that is not an option, we would at least like to see it put into a trust fund where the three levels of government can work together in regard to how the housing will be implemented within my respective region so that we are working together to ensure that the quality of housing and the housing needs within the specific communities are addressed as best as possible with the amount of funding being provided.
Senator Watt: When housing matters are being dealt with by the federal government and the territorial government, have you ever in the past had any direct input into those types of housing, or have you been excluded altogether from the beginning?
Mr. Smith: Again, I can't say that we've been fully engaged or engaged to any real degree, because it is a territorial government process that they continue to apply through the housing corporation that's mandated to deliver that service within the Northwest Territories.
Senator Watt: I guess you see the opportunity, since the budget specifically is earmarked for that region, and it is the same for the other land regions. They have similar wording. I guess you're looking at that as an opportunity to get engaged, if need be, with the territorial government. You don't seem to have any problem with that, if it's possible. Are you also saying that it doesn't necessarily have to go through the territorial government; it could go directly to you? Or does it have to go through the territorial government?
Mr. Smith: It is a federal allocation. I am suggesting that they should consider all options and processes in regard to the application of this funding that is allocated to housing within my region. If they're going to conduct that activity within my region, then we should develop a process to implement that.
I'm trying not to get into specifics under the Inuvialuit Final Agreement, which is constitutionally protected, but there are sections within my final agreement that obligate all governments, including ourselves, to proactively implement that section of the land claim when it comes to dealing with social needs and housing in this issue. In part, it can be a procurement issue, which is a matter that we have to consistently raise with the federal government in regard to its obligations when it comes to contracting within my region.
Senator Watt: I believe that you're referring to a certain clause within your agreement that specifically mentions the fact that there is an ethnic nature that needs to be dealt with, and the federal government can actually flow that money directly into that region. Is that what you're referring to?
Mr. Smith: Yes, I am, senator.
Senator Watt: I think we understood you well on that. I'm going to hand it over to our chairman. I believe that they probably have already communicated; I'm not sure. I just came back down from Kuujjuaq. I haven't been here for at least three weeks, so I don't know what was done while I was away. I'm going to leave it up to our chairman to provide you an answer about whether they have actually communicated with the minister that has responsibility over housing. I would imagine that will be the Minister of Indian Affairs.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Senator Watt. Yes, this issue has come up with reference to other regions. The committee is dealing with that as we speak.
Senator Moore: Thank you very much, Mr. Smith, for being here. I really appreciate it. At the start of your comments, I think you said that your area has a population of 6,000.
Mr. Smith: Roughly.
Senator Moore: I'm looking at this chart on page 5 of your brief. It says that Inuvik has a population of 3,265. Is that out of date? This is 2015. It's quite current. Is your 6,000 more than just the boundaries of the town proper? You're looking at a whole regional area when you say 6,000?
Mr. Smith: That's correct, senator. There are six communities within my specific region. I believe you're looking at the list of those communities within the Inuvialuit Settlement Region as it is.
Senator Moore: So it's a total of all of those six.
I wanted to follow up on your comment. You said that the funding for the Inuit housing never got there. We heard that in Sanikiluaq, in Quebec. We were told the money there ended up going to the provincial government and then they disbursed it, but the people there were complaining as well that they didn't get it. I think that was the community where we were told that. Is that correct, chair?
The Deputy Chair: The Nunavik region, Kuujjuaq.
Senator Moore: First of all, who is the authority with whom you must deal? Which department and which minister has the ultimate say in the amount and where it goes?
Mr. Smith: First of all, senator, I hope I'm not complaining. I'm just bringing the facts to your awareness in regard to how previous funding for allocations for housing within my region didn't meet the objectives they were intended for previously.
Senator Moore: It's all good information, so don't hold back.
Mr. Smith: I appreciate that. Thank you, senator.
Again, in my land claim, in regard to the Inuvialuit Final Agreement that was signed 32 years ago, there's an obligation of the federal government, the two territorial governments that are signatory to it, as well as the Inuvialuit ourselves, to implement it. Earlier, you asked which minister has the responsibility. Ultimately, it is the federal INAC minister who has the responsibility to deal with it in that regard. They then task the territorial government to deliver it on their behalf. When you're asking who, ultimately, I'm supposed to discuss this matter with, it is the INAC minister via the territorial government housing minister.
Senator Moore: So in order to achieve what you want — and from the information we received in our visits, it sounds to me like it's needed — how do we get there? We are looking for some ideas here. Does this call for a change in legislation or a change in policy? Have you thought that through, namely, how we can get to where you want to be?
Mr. Smith: Thanks for the question, senator. I think what you're touching on, to some degree, is a lack of understanding of various federal government departments and their obligations to work with the respective land claim organizations in the implementation of those land claims. This is just one issue where this consistently comes up.
I've been suggesting to the various ministers that I've met with to create what I call a land claim 101. In this case, I was referring to the IFA 101, so we can create a booklet that can be provided to the different federal departments that deal specifically with my region so that that staff has an understanding of what their obligations are when it comes to dealing with government activities within my region. You can make that as a template and make one for the Nunavut region, one for Nunavik, one for the Gwich'in region, et cetera. There's a consistent lack of awareness and education in the federal government bureaucracy with regard to that area. We, at my level, are consistently having to deal with and re-educate the federal bureaucrats that we deal with on matters such as this, trying to develop a proactive way we can work together to develop a better understanding where there is a renewed relationship between the federal government and the various land claim organizations spread across Canada.
Senator Moore: Is there an Inuit desk within INAC, within that department, that you can go to to deal with issues that are impacting our Inuit fellow citizens? Is there somebody who is responsible that you can go to and who can act on these issues, or is it all caught up in a general bureaucracy?
Mr. Smith: Again, I don't want to downplay that, but the desk that I'm supposed to deal with, as it says within my final agreement, is actually the minister's desk. But, on the day-to-day activities, back in the day, when Jose Kusugak was around, he worked with the federal government to create an Inuit Relations Secretariat. Once they created that, the bureaucracy did not try to work with the Inuit organizations to ensure its role and function was consistent with the objective. I think there's still an Inuit Relations Secretariat, but it's become something that is practically nonexistent and doesn't have any function with us at all. I can't speak for the other Inuit regions, but I can speak for ours. We do not deal with that secretariat at all because it doesn't conduct anything.
Senator Enverga: Thank you, Mr. Smith, especially for inviting us to your place in nine hours; I don't think it's that bad.
My question is more on the funding. In an April 2015 intergovernmental agreement between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Inuvialuit Regional Corporation, they identified that one of the possible areas of collaboration will be to have this community housing innovation fund. Can you tell us more about it, please, and tell us how it will resolve some issues?
Mr. Smith: Thank you, senator, for the question. Yes, you are welcome to my area, and you can come and enjoy the 24-hour sunlight, as it is right now.
With regard to that section of that agreement, it has never been developed to the extent that it could be. In reality, we have not sat down and developed any process with regard to intergovernmental services with the GNWT to date.
Senator Enverga: Do you know the reason why it has not been developed? It's been a year already, over a year.
Mr. Smith: There have been different elections at various levels, including myself as well. I'm not trying to bring up any excuses, but that's been the reality in that case. We have a new territorial government, a new cabinet and new ministers, and everybody is trying to get refreshed with regard to their role and functions. That's still an outstanding area that we need to sit down and discuss.
Senator Enverga: In your view, although it's not there yet, what is your suggestion? If you sit at the table and want this community housing innovation fund to be more effective, what are your suggestions to make it better or to make it effective for you or for the community?
Mr. Smith: Some of the issues that I've pointed out previously: Let's work proactively together with regard to quality housing, more energy efficient. I've suggested to various federal ministers that I've met with as well with regard to trying to become more innovative.
I don't understand why we are dealing in isolation when we consider housing, at least in my part of Canada's Arctic. I've been suggesting combing the alternative energy application and housing within the Arctic so that we can make them more energy efficient, more self-reliant and build them sturdy so that there's less maintenance cost in the long run. We continue to put electric water heaters, as an example, in these housing units. Why don't we put instant hot water, which uses less energy and is more efficient? Let's build the walls a little thicker. That's the sort of thing that I would be suggesting if and when I were to sit down to develop the criteria for this innovative fund.
Senator Enverga: Going back to housing, I know we have seen a lot of witnesses who mentioned that they're building better houses and that they have actually requested information from Northern areas. You also mentioned that there are some Southern designers, and they don't do much to make it perfect. Do you have any Northern designers? Has there been any proposal on your end that was built and made by Northern designers? Could you let us know, please?
Mr. Smith: I don't want to sound so negative about all of the designs. There are some designs and construction that have been successful in the Arctic. We seem to pay too much attention, I guess, to the failures. But, again, my community, my region, lives on permafrost, so we have a lot of good and bad examples within my region on how some have been successful and some haven't been. Of course, most of the ones that are a success build the buildings off of the ground, on pilings, so that you're not making the ground melt with the building sitting right on the ground.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much, Mr. Smith. I want to change the subject a little bit, if you don't mind. We've heard from some of the Inuit regions about difficulties with how people qualify to be on a housing list for subsidized housing. I'm just wondering how it works in your region where so many people need to have supported housing. How do you allocate? We can see the terrible problems you have with so many people waiting for their own housing, and overcrowding is a huge issue. How do those lists work?
Mr. Smith: I can't speak for how the other regions apply, but my understanding, at least for the Nunavut region, is that it's a very similar process and program that's applied within my region.
Overcrowding is a constant issue, and I'll give you an example. If a grandmother has a one-bedroom unit and she has a child or a grandchild or children that are waiting to get into a housing unit — and in some communities it's over a one-year wait-list — they will obviously need a place to stay, so they will stay on the sofa or on the floor in their grandparents' or their parents' place. But once Housing finds out about that, they will give the person whose name that unit is under a warning that those people are not allowed to be living there. So where is this person supposed to live?
I have two homeless shelters in my community alone to deal with homeless people because of the lack of housing within my community alone.
Senator Raine: I was going to ask about the different types of transitional-type housing that are needed for semi- independent people, people who are living with relatives. If it's exactly the same as Nunavut, I think we already have that information, but we heard the story of how you get points to work your way up the list. If you go away to university, you don't get any points. When you come back, in some regions, in Nunavik, for example, people who come back to work — they would like to get a job teaching in a school or being a nurse — don't qualify for staff housing because they're locals, which seems to me very discriminatory. Is there anything like that in your region, or are you in control of those lists and make the common-sense-type decisions?
Mr. Smith: I'm sorry to say, senator, it is exactly the same but actually a little bit worse, because within the Northwest Territories they do not even provide staff housing. So the housing demand is even more crucial because it's an open market. There is no teacher housing in the communities. They're actually cutting back on housing for RCMP, so they will be on the open market as well, which will put even more pressure on the housing needs within the communities.
As another example, if you lived in subsidized housing, say 10 years ago, and caused damage, like $600, until you pay that off, you will never get back on the housing needs list. You have to make a request to have your name taken off this long-term list, and it never happens. So you have that category of people who will never qualify because they can't even afford to repay the damage deposit.
Senator Raine: I'm surprised to hear there isn't staff housing. In the places where you have services where you might need people to come from outside the region, how do you attract the people that you need?
Mr. Smith: We do it for our own corporation. I can't speak for the government of the area. But it is quite a difficult task. You have a very large turnover of skilled labour throughout the Arctic, and a major reason for that is the lack of housing and the need for them to come in and be part of the open market in such a short time frame and then get to work as well.
Senator Raine: On the open market, is there rental housing available?
Mr. Smith: Not in the smaller communities. It is very limited, if any at all. If an entrepreneur has renovated an abandoned house and built it up to standards, there might be. Only in the large centres — and I'm talking my community of about 3,200 — is there an open market. Anywhere in the territory, any community smaller than that, no, there is no open market.
The Deputy Chair: You referred to a community that might have to consider moving further inland due to permafrost. Which community is that?
Secondly, with regard to your recommendation that IRC have a direct role in housing, you do manage and administer Inuvialuit-owned lands under the land claim agreement, and you have a subsidiary of the IRC doing that. Would it be possible that you could make land available for housing?
Mr. Smith: We can, senator. Maybe I'll start with that. Yes, we can. Most of our private land actually buffers all of the communities, but the preference and the policy of the government is to have the land transferred to them as a part of the municipality lands. So they would have to amend their policy in that regard because that issue has never been entertained by either previously.
The community that I was referring to doesn't have to relocate; it already is relocating inland as we speak. For the last 20 years, buildings have been moving inland. The RCMP moved back from the coastline. They were one of the first facilities that had to be relocated further inland. This has been an ongoing issue where facilities, offices, houses have been moving inland for a couple of decades now, and they continue to do so.
The Chair: That's Tuktoyaktuk; is that right?
Mr. Smith: Tuktoyaktuk, yes, sir.
Senator Watt: My supplementary may not be directly related to the issue you raised, but in a sense it's an issue that was raised concerning the mortgaging problem. You probably remember the visit you made up to Kuujjuaq. It was a question of a bank agreeing to a shorter version of being able to access the mortgaging. That is to say that in the very early years, Mr. Smith, under the Makivik Corporation, I think it was the third year from 1975, the deals were made with the financial institutions that they were quite happy to entertain the idea of the 99-year lease.
Do you have a similar type of arrangement, or is this in an area that it would have to be a certain part of the land turned over to the municipality? Is that the way it works? How do you deal with the question of collectivity rights to the land in regard to leasing the land for a purpose of accessing mortgaging from the financial institutions? How does that work in your area?
Mr. Smith: Thank you, Senator Watt, for the question. In reality, there is only one bank in my region. My community of Inuvik is the only community where you can own the land that your house sits on. In all other five communities, it can only be leased from the municipality, and there is no 99-year lease arrangement within those municipalities at all. It's very difficult for anyone to get recognition from a bank to get a mortgage except within the community of Inuvik.
Senator Watt: I guess your problem is much larger than in the other regions we have heard from. What does that mean? The land itself is collectively owned, and you have a municipality on top of your collective rights. Is that the way it works?
Mr. Smith: I'm sorry, I didn't understand that first part. All the Inuvialuit land that's collectively owned is outside of the municipalities. All of the municipal lands are owned by the Crown, or the GNWT, in this case.
Senator Watt: Okay. Now I understand. So you probably should have more ability to go to the financial institutions and get mortgaging if you don't have a house that you're trying to borrow money against, and the land itself is not owned by individual persons but is owned collectively. This is one of the reasons we got around to the issue of a 99 year lease in the past.
Under the municipality, that would be a much different arrangement. I would have to go back and say that I think your scheme probably looks even better than when you look at the four land claims regions on the eastern side in that regard.
Mr. Smith: Exactly, senator, and that's why we've been bringing that up. That's exactly the concern.
Senator Watt: So you are looking for someone to work with and iron those things out if you do have a problem mortgaging from the financial institutions, not because of the collective ownership of the land, but because the municipality is considered to be the Crown land. That should not be the same problem the eastern Arctic side has.
Mr. Smith: That's partly correct, but again, there's going to be very limited demand from residents within the region to begin with to even try to build their own houses because of the limited economy within the region to begin with. What we are talking about, mostly, is trying to provide subsidized housing to those that need it the most, initially.
Senator Watt: Okay. Understood.
Senator Raine: I note in your comments you mentioned that the public authority responsibility for public housing is the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. Its mandate includes ". . . the prudent management and stewardship of its portfolio, which represents significant ongoing investment by the Government." It would be expected that regular monitoring and reporting on the condition of the public housing portfolio would unfold as common practice.
Am I correct in reading into that that there is a lack of transparency in how the housing portfolio is being managed, or is everything pretty straightforward in terms of managing this housing stock?
Mr. Smith: Thank you, senator, for the question. I would say there is a lack of efficiency in regard to how it is being implemented and applied in that matter.
If a family, for whatever reason, moved out of a unit, that unit can sit for a whole year before it is retrofitted for another family to move into. Those are examples of how we can work together to develop a process that is more efficient and effective to alleviate the housing needs within the region in a timely manner.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much. I understand now. I wish you well in your new position. Thank you for appearing with us today.
The Deputy Chair: With that, I would like to thank you, Mr. Smith, for joining us early this morning. I'm afraid that due to the vastness of the Inuit Nunangat, we were not able to reach your region, but I thank you for the trouble you've taken to prepare this presentation and your input into our work via video.
With that, thank you again very much.
(The committee adjourned.)